topping from the bottom or good communication?

[Kailey_86]

J and i started our relationship not too long ago. W/we are both relatively new to the scene so W/we talk a lot about what is working and what isn't. i have brought up a few things about consistency in punishments and things that just aren't working for me. He appreciates it since W/we are both learning and tells me to continue bringing things up as they come about. i think it's good that W/we can communicate like this but my submissive side is saying that this isn't right. i feel like i am topping from the bottom in a way. i feel like i should just keep quiet and go with the flow.

These questions might have been asked in another thread. If so, just let me know.
What do you consider topping from the bottom?
Where is the line drawn between good communication and topping from the bottom?
Would You Dom/mes want Your subs to bring up problems at the start of a relationship?
Any other comments on this topic would be appreciated as well.

 

[amadaun]

I'd say this is just good common sense. Submissives have particular needs we want fulfilled, too... if the only real goal was "pleasing one's partner without complaint", we'd all just find vanilla mates and be happy pleasing them by, I don't know, not talking during the movie, cleaning our hair out of the sink, and giving the occasional blowjob. The "normal" pleasing stuff.

I mean, a D/s relationship is just like any other relationship in that if your needs are going unmet beyond a certain degree, or what your partner is doing isn't working for you, you're going to be unhappy and want to walk, no? (I realize that those who consider themselves owned may feel differently, but I'm going with this for the sake of argument). If I were a Dominant (ha, ha) I'd probably rather have my sub let me know what they needed (in an undemanding way) than have them keep quiet and randomly freak out and want to leave one day. It's good to hash this stuff out every once in awhile, and since J says he appreciates it, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I definitely have trouble expressing the things that I might want, too... both in the sense that I do get that uncomfortable topping from the bottom feeling and in that I simply have difficulty forming the words and making them come out of my mouth. So personally, I usually do wait until it's something important or I've thought it out really well. Plus, of course, I detest the thought that he might be doing something simply to oblige me, even though I know my general happiness is a concern of his. One of those things I'm still working to find the right balance on.

 

[myinnerslut]

i admit, i used to have a topping from the bottom problem. Sir put an end to that very quickly by simply endingthe scene where it was, untying me if neccesary, and then walking into another room to let me clean up. it was not a pleasent experience and i soon learned not to do what i was doing wrong.

that being said , i do think that communication is very important. since i am submissive i sometimes felt bad about voicing my opinion, but learned it was neccesary. communication and topping are different. one is necessary, though it may be awkward, and the other can be harmful to your D/s dynamic

 

[lil_slave_rose]

J and i started our relationship not too long ago. W/we are both relatively new to the scene so W/we talk a lot about what is working and what isn't. i have brought up a few things about consistency in punishments and things that just aren't working for me. He appreciates it since W/we are both learning and tells me to continue bringing things up as they come about. i think it's good that W/we can communicate like this but my submissive side is saying that this isn't right. i feel like i am topping from the bottom in a way. i feel like i should just keep quiet and go with the flow.

These questions might have been asked in another thread. If so, just let me know.
What do you consider topping from the bottom?
Where is the line drawn between good communication and topping from the bottom?
Would You Dom/mes want Your subs to bring up problems at the start of a relationship?
Any other comments on this topic would be appreciated as well.

kailey, saying what is bothering you is not topping from the bottom. i would be concerned if J would not let you discuss these things with him. you are human and you have a right to say 'this makes me feel like x,y,z' if you keep your mouth shut and just go with the flow how is he supposed to know if you are happy? topping from the bottom in my opinion is when you manipulate the situation to go the way YOU want it to. talking to him about valid concerns of yours is NOT Topping from the bottom. what exactly are you considering topping from the bottom to be?? communication is needed in any relationship new or 3, 4, 5, years old. P wants me to communicate with him and as long as you're doing it with respect, there should be no problems....that of course is the way i see it.

 

[Stegral]

What do you consider topping from the bottom?
I will agree with Rose, she explains very well:
topping from the bottom in my opinion is when you manipulate the situation to go the way YOU want it to..
To me this is Dominating when you are supposed to be subbing...
Where is the line drawn between good communication and topping from the bottom?
To me this would be when the sub demands instead of requesting.
Would You Dom/mes want Your subs to bring up problems at the start of a relationship?
My "playmate" (He has no desire to collar anyone) asks me questions during the scene/playtime frequently.
He enjoys input & has learned to read my body language & my coo's, moans & groans.
We have "negotiated" from the beginning... there is a section in our profiles on Bondage.com that show our likes, dislikes & compatabilities
Any other comments on this topic would be appreciated as well.
I am VERY new to the lifestyle & He is a bit more experienced. He loves mind control so with me he is having a blast because I hate asking for anything or expressing myself when He "requests" my input. He likes to play & is enjoying my newness to great extent, but I also know there are things that are HARD limits for me that he enjoys, so I have to look away & sulk when he plays with another. My vanilla conditioning is hard to let go of & being a scorpio I am very possesive & jealous which is why I am not sure I could ever be in a "poly" setting...

 

[Evil_Geoff]

Topping from the bottom = using deceitful, manipulative methods to get what you desire.

Examples: Communicating - "Sir, I'd really appreciate a beating tonight"
Tftb - "Hey lardass, get off the couch and get your own damn beer."

Communicating - "Ma'am, I'm ready for you to play harder"
Tftb - "You hit like a girl!"

Communicating - "Sir, I'd like to buy a sexy new dress to wear for you."
Tftb - Making the purchase without his knowledge or approval.

You get the picture.

Dominants are not mind readers. If you want or need something, how in the world are we supposed to know unless you _tell_ us? Guess and hope we get lucky? And then deal with the hurt and disappointment because we guessed wrong? ? ? Helllllooooooooo... THAT's Topping from the bottom.

When you tell your partner what you want or need, you give them the power and authority to decide whether they want to provide that for you or not. The decision is in their hands at that point. So what if they give you what you ask for? Or not? THEY made the decision.

Nuff said.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

Well put above....

 

[Netzach]

I'd add one thing

when a submissive expresses what he thinks is a need politely and clearly, and rationally as can be

I still have the right to make my decisions otherwise and it's still his job to accept that I may feel differently about the issue than he does. And my opinion is going to trump his. If this creates a giant relational impasse it means I'm not listening closely enough if the message is repeated, OR it's not something I'm ever willing to be flexible about and so be it.

 

[Inconsequential]

J and i started our relationship not too long ago. W/we are both relatively new to the scene so W/we talk a lot about what is working and what isn't....
What do you consider topping from the bottom?
Where is the line drawn between good communication and topping from the bottom?
Would You Dom/mes want Your subs to bring up problems at the start of a relationship?
Any other comments on this topic would be appreciated as well.

I don't view it as topping from the bottom at all, it's not like you interupt the scene and just stop. It's sounds more like you're setting time aside to both talk about the scene and what worked for both of you. I would say common sense and a sense of responsiblity in your play. That's a ~BIG~ part of safe sane and consensual is open honest communication. Your play should bring excitement and trust and part of that is telling each other what they liked, and didn't like.
I'd personally say keep up the communication. the more there is, the better it gets.
With previous subs I've had sessions of talk a day or so after the session.. with my slaves I've had "open forum" wich gives them the chance to bring up problems and concerns.

 

[graceanne]

bottom topping is when your'e manipulative (like deliberately doing something you shouldn't just to get a spanking). It's also being passive aggressive . . . or anything manipulative like that. Good communication is saying in plain words what's wrong, or what you want, or what you don't want. It's being honest and up front.

 

[the captians wench]

Like others have said, it's pretty much the way you aproach things.

When ever I have a question about why I'm being punished, or why I'm being punished this time and I wasn't last, I'll ask him. Usually the answer I get is "because I want to see you suffer tonight" which is fair enough and his choice and I drop it there and accept my punishment.

It's getting about that point where I will ask him to go over my rules with me. I ask about ever 6 months sometimes sooner. This just helps me to understand what are rules that he wishes me to follow and what are things he was just teasing me about. Since the majority of our comunication is online, it's hard to tell the difference often times. I think he appreciates this as well, because it puts us both on the same page and we know we are on the same page. This is also when I make sujestions of things I'd like to try in the next 6 months, and ask where he sees things going over that time.

All of this is done in a respectful tone, tho some times it gets a bit playful which he doesn't mind, to a point. I think if I aproached the matter in a "hey you mister domly type wtf is with these pointless rules" then there would be a problem.

I will admit tho, that at first I did feel like this was not subby behaviour. So I spent a few months confused, angry, hurt, and feeling alone, afraid to say anything because it wasn't my place. Finally he asked me "Are things going as you expected", and I felt like I could tell him what was bothering me. From there we made it rutine to go over things at mile stones (ie 1month, 3 months, 6 months, 12 months and 18months is comming up soon), and he also told me that when ever I have a question about something to ask him. This makes me feel a lot safer with him, and a lot more like I can communicate rather than just being a mindless drone, misserable until I finally say I've had enough and leave.

 

[Kailey_86]

Thank You all for Your posts. Apparently i had the definition of "topping from the bottom" wrong. Good to know. Live and learn. i feel much better now. i talked about this with J last night and He made a good point. He said "Would you rather deal with the feelings of topping from the bottom in the beginning but be happy later or have to deal with months of confusion and frustration because W/we didn't talk about it?" He doesn't feel like i am topping from the bottom anyway so everything is good.

 

[Etoile]

Thank You all for Your posts.

Hey Kailey...there are some subs posting in this thread too. I know that when somebody says "You" to me I get kind of annoyed...just because I know myself and share my experiences doesn't make me a dominant! I know you have a tendency to use the "Y/you" construction in situations like this, but I don't think anybody would be offended if you just said "Thank you all for your posts." If J is training you to refer to each other with "His" type pronouns, that's one thing, but it doesn't have to apply to the rest of us.

 

[Kailey_86]

Hey Kailey...there are some subs posting in this thread too. I know that when somebody says "You" to me I get kind of annoyed...just because I know myself and share my experiences doesn't make me a dominant! I know you have a tendency to use the "Y/you" construction in situations like this, but I don't think anybody would be offended if you just said "Thank you all for your posts." If J is training you to refer to each other with "His" type pronouns, that's one thing, but it doesn't have to apply to the rest of us.

Eeek! Thanks for bringing that to my attention. It's such a habit for me. Sorry about that guys. i usually use lower case when referring to and talking to subs or when in mixed company. i use caps when i am ONLY talking to Doms...out of respect. Anyway, i'll pay more attention.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Ah, and how did the world of D/s cope before there was a screen on which to apply or take away the caps? I am with most here who have said in the past how distracting and annoying it becomes trying to read all this variation, and especially when someone can adhere rigidly to it on the screen and yet not seem to apply submission that rigidly in their D/s. Thank the universe I found someone who actually finds applying basic grammar skills just as respectful, not to mention much easier to read and follow, and much more focused on what really showed submission and thought than worrying about caps and lower case applied against the usual rules as I type away. And of course, like moi, he also has a thing about writing and doing it well so I guess he doesn't want anyone to make the mistake of thinking it is just lack of skill.

Catalina

 

[graceanne]

Actually the other reason it irritates me is cause people use the upper case 'out of respect', but as we all know just cause someone claims to be a dom/me doesn't mean they deserve respect.

 

[the captians wench]

How did we get onto this arguement again?

I stick with the "meh I'm lazy" deffence. I tend to use mostly lowercase for everything when I IM, tho I'm a bit more careful about it when I post on forums. my IM's are filled with i's and you's and sir's and I's and so on. If I hit the cap button cool, if not meh. And he's even lazier about it than I am, so he doesn't seem to mind. *giggles*

 

[catalina_francisco]

How did we get onto this arguement again?

I stick with the "meh I'm lazy" deffence. I tend to use mostly lowercase for everything when I IM, tho I'm a bit more careful about it when I post on forums. my IM's are filled with i's and you's and sir's and I's and so on. If I hit the cap button cool, if not meh. And he's even lazier about it than I am, so he doesn't seem to mind. *giggles*

LOL, because it is irritating to try and read through it all, especially when it is done to the extreme....and as you demonstrate, it is after all just typing and doesn't signify anything in terms of submission, except to those who believe in its creation as a means of submission online. I'm all fine with anyone who wants to believe it means someone is submissive (or dominant), just don't drive me nuts with having to wade through it and try and follow where a sentence starts and ends, get blurred vision from trying to read huge chunks of lowercase lettering with no breaks to give some relief, and then at the end of it all try and understand what is really being said once I have sorted through the bad grammar and hopefully understood the meaning.

Catalina

 

[Kailey_86]

Alright, i don't think i should have to change but i will ask my Dom if i can stop using the caps/lowercase on here. i've already been in trouble for NOT using it but we'll see what He says. Until then, i'm following the rules. i personally don't think it's THAT difficult to read. It does mean something to us and this is one of the few places that i use it because it is understood here. *tired sigh*

 

[Etoile]

Alright, i don't think i should have to change but i will ask my Dom if i can stop using the caps/lowercase on here. i've already been in trouble for NOT using it but we'll see what He says. Until then, i'm following the rules. i personally don't think it's THAT difficult to read. It does mean something to us and this is one of the few places that i use it because it is understood here. *tired sigh*

Kailey, you DON'T have to change. You should do whatever your dominant tells you to do, and whatever makes you feel comfortable. If you are concerned about the things people have said about it, then it's appropriate to ask for permission to change, but you don't HAVE to. And if he says no, you must use it - then use it! We are all adults here and we can learn to live with things that annoy us, or find other methods of dealing with it ourselves.

 

[graceanne]

Alright, i don't think i should have to change but i will ask my Dom if i can stop using the caps/lowercase on here. i've already been in trouble for NOT using it but we'll see what He says. Until then, i'm following the rules. i personally don't think it's THAT difficult to read. It does mean something to us and this is one of the few places that i use it because it is understood here. *tired sigh*

I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said anything, I just don't understand why it's a sign of submission, but that's for another thread. If your dom wants you to do it then by all means do it.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Kailey, you DON'T have to change. You should do whatever your dominant tells you to do, and whatever makes you feel comfortable. If you are concerned about the things people have said about it, then it's appropriate to ask for permission to change, but you don't HAVE to. And if he says no, you must use it - then use it! We are all adults here and we can learn to live with things that annoy us, or find other methods of dealing with it ourselves.

Ditto.

Catalina

 

[leeroy jenkins]

Notice it was the ladies that were annoyed?? Kailey, when I drove truck there was something I heard more then a little bit. If momma ain't happy ain't nobody happy. Now just pervert this saying and remember that your dom/masters happiness ranks higher then if you annoy people where with how you type responses. Besides at least you don't have nasty spelling errors where you put the letters in the wrong order and fail to fix them.

 

[the captians wench]

Notice it was the ladies that were annoyed?? Kailey, when I drove truck there was something I heard more then a little bit. If momma ain't happy ain't nobody happy. Now just pervert this saying and remember that your dom/masters happiness ranks higher then if you annoy people where with how you type responses. Besides at least you don't have nasty spelling errors where you put the letters in the wrong order and fail to fix them.

Hey I resemble that remark!

I never said she should change, nor would I want her to ask her dom for permission to change because of something I didn't care for, that would put me in a higher station than I deserve in her life honestly.

I don't understand the W/we stuff, and I do find it a little hard on the eyes, but if her dom likes it the all power to them. It just doesn't make since to me, but that's my own thing to deal with.

 

[liberatedslave]

Oh i was such a sammy last night. *hangs head*

I've never been like this before but i wound Sir up so much that he was shocked at his own aggression & stopped the scene. I was enjoying it, far from safewording & was surprised when he called a halt to everything. Sounds lame but i didn't realise quite how manipulative i was being & how close i came to damaging our trust. He feels bad for losing control a little but i feel SO awful for goading him. It started as a joke & just spiralled. Live & learn