to spank or not

[freakygirl]

I've never spanked my children.. I just don't believe in it.

but how does one go about discipling a child that just will not do what she is told?

My 6 year old daughter is becoming harder and harder to control.. school, home and her dads house.. doesn't matter where. She is a "brat". It's not something I've done or haven't done.

she isn't lacking attention.. actually I think part of the problem is.. to much attention.. She demands it.. if she isn't the center of attention she will do anything to get it.

I have 3 other children.. but in alot of ways.. Kimber is an only child. The others were never ever a discipline problem. Not sure if it was from being raised by my ex husband (who is an awesome father) or if it is because Kimber is exactly like her father (he was on medication for along time for ADHD).

I'm at my wits end.. I don't know what to do..

I've grounded her.. removed privlages.. had her do work..had her spend time in her room.. talked to her about it.. blah blah blah.


I hope all of this makes sense.. It's taken me almost an hour to type it because I'm helping her with her homework..

so any secrets any parents might have on getting my child under control.. would be greatly appreciated..

 

[Chuckus]

freaky I am not a father but could give you some observations from my sister and her plight with motherhood.

While she was single (freshly divorced) her and her son lived by themselves. He was 5 and drove her up the wall. He got attention and if he didn't get what he wanted, he threw a temper tantrum. She (like you) does not believe in spanking as a form of punishment. So she began saying "If you do this I will take away this, this and this" then she wouldn't take it away IF he continued his behavior. So he saw that he won. Regardless of what he did, he did not suffer any consequences for his actions. He would get her all flustered and bent out of shape and she would show it (literally by her actions and reactions). To this day she still does it, although I must say she has become much better with it and doesn't show it and is firm with him.

She used to put him in "time out" and "send him to his room" for his behavior. This did no good for him. He, much like one of yours wanted to be the center of attention, continued his path. She became firmer and firmer in her resolve. Gradually taking away things that he liked to do and stuck to her guns. Finally he learned that his actions do have consequences. I don't know any particular technique she used other than to be firm and fair, she told me once that "timeouts" do no good. Rather take away privledges, etc....and stick to your guns.

I on the other hand, am of the opinion of spanking is punishment. Which is a completely different story.

For whatever that was worth, that is my .02 cents worth.

Hope I helped a little bit anyways..........

 

[Bindii]

I feel for you Freaky girl, its not easy being a parent is it? I'm in total aggreeance with Chuckus, once you say it you have to follow through no matter how bad you feel about it.
Personally I believe a smack never did any child any harm at. Both my kids recieved a smack on the bottom when they misbehaved and people are always commenting on how well behaved they are, we also have the best relationship and they are healthy, happy well adjusted children.

 

[lilminx]

she isn't lacking attention.. actually I think part of the problem is.. to much attention.. She demands it.. if she isn't the center of attention she will do anything to get it.

FG, I am speaking as an educator and not a parent, so forgive me if my advice doesn't help.

You stated that she gets too much attention, and that if she doesn't get it, she will do anything to get it.

If possible, you might try to do what I do with my students when they pull the same shit: IGNORE IT. Yes, it may be difficult for you to do at first- she may be throwing a tantrum, yelling, screaming, etc, but she is doing so because she wants your attention. Don't give her what she wants . Often with children, even negative attention is better than no attention at all, so if you threaten her or punish her, you are still giving her what she wants by paying attention to her.

It will not work immediately. However, if you remain firm in your resolve, you might notice that her negative behavior lessens. I have given similar advice to some of the parents of my students (with and without disabilities- the students, that is...), and it is effective. As long as she is not causing harm to herself or to anyone else, try it.

I hope this helps.

(Btw, I'm not an advocate of spanking).

 

[morninggirl5]

I'm completely opposed to spanking as a form of discipline for children. This is based entirely on my experiences dealing with groups of children and watching their interactions with each other.

You said in your post, you're at your wits end, you don't know what else to do, so hitting becomes an option. That is the lesson children learn when they're spanked. If you're upset, angry with someone and you can't control them, you hit them.

But what do you do if you don't spank?

Six year olds are old enough to use a variety of forms of consequences. (I don't like the term discipline, it's way over-used).

1. Use logical consequences. Let her experience them. If she won't put her clothes in the hamper, then you leave them where she left them. One morning, she'll wake up and have no clean clothes to wear to school. It won't hurt her any to have to wear yesterday's clothes, but the message will be there.

2. Try and figure out who "owns" the problem. (Psychologese, i know, can't think of any other way to say it.) If it's a problem for you, state it that way. Instead of saying, "You need to pick up your toys, they're a mess" try, "I like things neat and tidy, I can't come into your room and tuck you in when it's a mess." Sounds really weird, i know, but it works. It puts the attack on the problem, not the child.

3. If you really think there may be ADHD issues involved, get in touch with a child or school psychologist. You don't have to visit or even have any testing done, just ask for information. As them for the modifications they suggest for children. Using their suggestions may make a world of difference and eliminate the need for testing and labels.

4. Almost forgot, your two mantras must be consistency and deal with it and forget about it. You have to be consistent in whatever consequences you decide to use and once an infraction has been dealt with, leave it buried in the past. Even if the past is five minutes ago, it's still the past.

PM me if you want. I'll be happy to dig out and send you some of the stuff that was given to me by a child psychologist. It's the techniques that are keeping me sane in my classroom right now.

 

[freakygirl]

thank you for responding..

chuck.. I've tried the "taking things away"...but how much more can I take away? She isn't allowed any tv before or after school.. she isn't allowed Playstation time anymore.. she can't play with her friends.. she can't play on her swing set (this is the hardest, because right now the weather is beautiful and she doesn't get much chance to go outside and play, unless it's in the rain).. she lost her bike.. her scooter..
NOTHING is working.. I swear she is the most hard headed child I have ever seen. Between myself and her father.. she had no chance but to be that way.

She turns around and she is in trouble.. last week.. fighting at school.. this week.. passing notes and talking while the teacher is talking.. (she's in the first grade.. she knows she isn't supposed to do those things.. but she just doesn't think before acting). I also fight her to eat.. take a bath and go to bed. I've tried putting her to bed earlier.. only to have her stay awake until 11pm.

i'm not dead set against spanking..I choose not to do it.. because of family history. My mom and dad fought and us kids were punished for it. My mother was mentaly and physicaly abusive.. I've worked hard not to continue that. If other people can spank in a disiplinary way.. more power to them. I do not know that I can do that. I don't know if I can stop at just a small slap on the butt. I did, when my kids were real little, use the pop on the hand to get their attention about something they weren't supposed to touch. Something I knew would hurt them and wanted them to learn.. not to do again. But spanking is hard for me.


I'm trying positive reinforcement. Kimber if you do this.. you will get this back. Or when she does do good.. she gets something special. I reward her.. with words mostly for being good. So it's not all negative attention.. i'm focusing on the postive also.

I forsee some real problems (in the future) here.. if I don't get this taken care of now.

Bindii.. and I have that kind of relationship with my 3 older children.. and they were never spanked (atleast not by me.. and I don't think they were ever by their father). My older kids are 15, 13 and 12... very good in school and are very polite. There is a differance of night and day between my kids..

 

[Chuckus]

edited due to double posting............arrrrggghhhhh

 

[Chuckus]

Well, for whatever it is worth my nephew had damn near everything taken away from him. I think mg5 may have something that can benefit you.

Like I said, I am not a father, merely an observer on the outside looking in. I think I know the way I would react, but reality may be a totally different thing when it happens.

It is hard, if it were easy EVERYONE would be parents. You can do it. Best of luck to you. I don't know really what else I have to offer you, other than my "moral" support.

I am sure others have insider information as to their experiences that might help..........

PS I was a hard headed child also, and I know that one day it just all "clicked" with me, that I could be out playing if I would simply take 10 or 20 or 30 minutes and do what my mother/father asked me to do!!! Found out that life is much more pleasurable and fun that way..............

 

[freakygirl]

Morninggirl.. I am not to the point of spanking.. read my above post.. I'm sorry if I made it sound like I was.

I guess i'm just trying to find away to keep my sanity..


I am doing the "I like things nice and tidy, please... " it works for those kind of things.
I told her this morning, that passing notes and fighting in school isn't something that needs to be done, that walking away and maybe talking (not tattling) but talking to a grown up about her feelings would be better than lashing out at whoever is teasing her. (she is teased alot at school because she is the smallest)

I hope this clears up things a little bit.

As far as the ADHD thing.. I'm not a believer of medicating the children. (I know you didn't tell me to medicate her, i'm just asking your advice) My SO's children are all on ADD meds.. they don't help.. they actually make them more like bratty zombies.. is there a way of controling this behavior (if this is the problem) other than meds? that you know of?

 

[Tim1]

thats a good one

I have two children ...well one is 21 and the other is 17. I can't say I NEVER smacked their butts ever, but I did it when they may have harmed themselves in some way. Like running down the driveway after i told them to stop. The next step was in the street where they may have been hit by a car. I always hated to EVER touch my children if that happened, but I never wantd them to forget that very moment in time.

I have found over the years that taking something away that they love works the best for me. My 17 year old has lost his driving privilege more than once. As others have said.....if you make a punishment, you stick with it.

When they were little like 6 years old, Taking the TV away or doing something they liked worked. Shit my kids would have worn the ame ol clothes dirty or clean if we didn't pick some of them up. On the other hand now I can truthfully say that my 17 year old keeps his clothes off the floor if he wants them washed.

I have been blessed with two great boys. Your little girl is no different. Good luck to you. Trial and error I spose. Whatever works works. ........I hate to spank though. Besides my 17 year old could kick my ass anyways.

 

[Bindii]

Bindii.. and I have that kind of relationship with my 3 older children.. and they were never spanked (atleast not by me.. and I don't think they were ever by their father). My older kids are 15, 13 and 12... very good in school and are very polite. There is a differance of night and day between my kids..

Oh lord I hope you didn't think that I meant that because I gave my kids a smack we have a good relationship? It just came out the wrong way. I was just trying to point out that we have a good relationship despite the odd smack, and only because some people seem to feel that parents that smack their children must have bad relationships with them.

You know Freaky it might be worth a trip to the doctors to ask about ADHD, testing even if he thinks it might be warranted. My friends son was disobedient and unruly, he was tested and shown to have ADDHD. AT first my friend was hesitant about using medication but as her doctor pointed out her son didn't like being the way he was either (always in trouble, hard to make and keep friends, schoolwork was failing etc). To cut a long story short he is now on medication and a pleasure to be around, his schoolwork has come ahead, he is popular and generally a much happier child. At the very least a chat with your doctor may well reassure you that you are a great mother (of that I have no doubt) who is making all the right decsions for her child.

 

[freakygirl]

Oh lord I hope you didn't think that I meant that because I gave my kids a smack we have a good relationship? It just came out the wrong way. I was just trying to point out that we have a good relationship despite the odd smack, and only because some people seem to feel that parents that smack their children must have bad relationships with them.

You know Freaky it might be worth a trip to the doctors to ask about ADHD, testing even if he thinks it might be warranted. My friends son was disobedient and unruly, he was tested and shown to have ADDHD. AT first my friend was hesitant about using medication but as her doctor pointed out her son didn't like being the way he was either (always in trouble, hard to make and keep friends, schoolwork was failing etc). To cut a long story short he is now on medication and a pleasure to be around, his schoolwork has come ahead, he is popular and generally a much happier child. At the very least a chat with your doctor may well reassure you that you are a great mother (of that I have no doubt) who is making all the right decsions for her child.

No, I knew what you meant by your first post.. no problems there..


my SO has 4 children.. 3 of which are boys on ADHD meds.. they are no different than before.. despite changing meds every 6 months or so. They have bad dreams.. sleep walk.. act out against each other and others. My ex husband has a son (now 19) that was on it.. it had the same effect on him. 2 of my nephews are on it.. same thing. I have no positive thoughts on the meds.. I think behavior modification.. positive reinforcement is far better. During the summer when we have the boys (my SO's) they don't take their meds. (their mom doesn't want to pay for it,and she figures that they are here and not in school, they don't need it). We are firm but loving in the discipline and have few problems.

My daughter doesn't have any problems in school unless she is teased. Kids are cruel and the teachers don't/can't do anything. My daughter was in trouble and sent to the office for fighting. The child that teased her wasn't in trouble at all.

 

[morninggirl5]

Morninggirl.. I am not to the point of spanking.. read my above post.. I'm sorry if I made it sound like I was.

I guess i'm just trying to find away to keep my sanity..


I am doing the "I like things nice and tidy, please... " it works for those kind of things.
I told her this morning, that passing notes and fighting in school isn't something that needs to be done, that walking away and maybe talking (not tattling) but talking to a grown up about her feelings would be better than lashing out at whoever is teasing her. (she is teased alot at school because she is the smallest)

I hope this clears up things a little bit.

As far as the ADHD thing.. I'm not a believer of medicating the children. (I know you didn't tell me to medicate her, i'm just asking your advice) My SO's children are all on ADD meds.. they don't help.. they actually make them more like bratty zombies.. is there a way of controling this behavior (if this is the problem) other than meds? that you know of?

The first part of my post may have been my own prejudices shining through loud and clear.

Are the majority of the problems happening at school? It sounds like she's getting completely frustrated and then lashing out, feeling powerless, maybe?

Have you been able to talk to the teacher and find out what's happening before incidents happen?

Also, i would make it very, very clear to the teacher that allowing other students to continue to tease your daughter will not be tolerated. Kids will be kids, but it's the teacher's responsibility to maintain a safe, learning environment. Safe isn't just about physical safety, but emotionally safe as well.

Tell the teacher what you're doing at home, and how it's working. If you have a strategy that's working, then maybe the teacher can adapt it for school.

Passing notes appears to me to be a symptom of the "accountability furror" that has overtaken education. We aren't allowed to have any down time and kids need that for socialization. She's obviously missing what she's supposed to be learning when she's not paying attention, so maybe approach it from that angle. (If she's bright and catches on quickly, it might have to be that she's preventing her friend from learning.)

Hang in there, school is over two-thirds over.

 

[freakygirl]

The first part of my post may have been my own prejudices shining through loud and clear.

Are the majority of the problems happening at school? It sounds like she's getting completely frustrated and then lashing out, feeling powerless, maybe?

Have you been able to talk to the teacher and find out what's happening before incidents happen?

Also, i would make it very, very clear to the teacher that allowing other students to continue to tease your daughter will not be tolerated. Kids will be kids, but it's the teacher's responsibility to maintain a safe, learning environment. Safe isn't just about physical safety, but emotionally safe as well.

Tell the teacher what you're doing at home, and how it's working. If you have a strategy that's working, then maybe the teacher can adapt it for school.

Passing notes appears to me to be a symptom of the "accountability furror" that has overtaken education. We aren't allowed to have any down time and kids need that for socialization. She's obviously missing what she's supposed to be learning when she's not paying attention, so maybe approach it from that angle. (If she's bright and catches on quickly, it might have to be that she's preventing her friend from learning.)

Hang in there, school is over two-thirds over.

no all problems are equal distributed between home and school. She is an equal opportunity problem maker

As far as the note passing.. she isn't always the one sending them.. she just isn't as good at sneaking them as Lonnie is. She always gets caught responding... As far as missing out on learning.. the teacher told me the other day, part of her problem may be the fact that she is way advanced in her school work. She almost gets bored with school. Her disruptions I'm sure have an affect on the others in the classroom. The teacher has a system.. "moving the chart" that is used. If you don't move your chart all day, you get two pieces of candy. If you clean up your area you get to get into the treasure box. If you move your chart, you only get one piece of candy. (If kimber has to move her chart, I take the candy away). I talked to the teacher and told her I felt that giving one piece of candy is still rewarding the child. She disagreed and is continuing to do it. I talked to the priniciple and she said it wouldn't benifit Kimber to take the one remaining piece of candy away for moving her chart. If she wants two pieces she needs to be good. If she can't be good she only gets one.

Today has been a good day.. We read.. We finished her homework (ok, not we.. she did.. i just watched).. She cleaned her room WITHOUT asking.. even made her bed. Not sure what has gotten into her.. maybe there is hope after all

 

[EvilBrat74]

HE HE HE

I opened this thread and was expecting something entirely different.

 

[Calamity Jane]

I struggle with this too. I have a very intelligent, head strong, independant 5 year old. We butt heads a lot. A LOT. She does get the occasional smack on the bottom when nothing else works to stop her long enough so that i can speak.

I've done my part to cause her behavior by not following through on threats. I know this, and I'm working on it. She's gonna be one surprised lil girl when she gets home tomorrow and most of her toys have found a new residence in the attic!

I agree with the suggestions that you ignore the behavior, but I also know it's really really hard to ignore a child who is throwing a tantrum in the middle of the kitchen floor while you're trying to cook dinner, help the other kids with their home work and try to keep the dog from killing the cat.

When my kid starts wailing, I pick her up, carry her to her room and put her on the floor. Then I walk away, closing the door. She knows that when she's ready to behave like a human being again she can come out. Lately, this has been working. Sometimes it doesn't. I've learned that with this kid in particular, motivation and discipline has to be an evolving concept.

She's worn dirty clothes to school because she refuses to pick them up and I refuse to crawl under the bed looking for them. She's spent time picking up barbie doll pieces in the back yard because she didn't bring her toys in and the lawn mower at them. She is currently riding her pony bareback because she left the saddle out and the dogs chewed on it. I'm not entirely sure that all of those things have left an impression on her, but we'll see.

 

[EvilBrat74]

She's spent time picking up barbie doll pieces in the back yard because she didn't bring her toys in and the lawn mower at them.

LOL
Lawnmower snuff.

 

[AusTess]

My parents were both spanked,severely i'd reckon.

I was,my sisters and brother were.

There are worse things you can do to your child than spank them.
Not many people seem to realise that.

But nothin pisses me off more than mothers who sit back and say,"I would NEVER spank my child" while said child is setting fires and trying to kill it's baby brother.

 

[Gilly Bean]

Well, I have 3 kids, as you know. The oldest, Raegan, is almost 6, and is a very agreeable child. She's much like your older ones, I suppose. Our youngest is only 2 months, she's an angel. Then there's Tiny Terror Tot. He just turned 3 in January. He tears into things, colors on every available surface, hits his sitsters, hits us, screams his head of right in Gilly's ears, etc. He's a terror around the house when I am alone with him. We have tried time out on the couch, in bed, sitting on our laps. We have tried taking stuff away, we have told him no TV, etc. We have resported to spanking in extreme cases when nothing works and he just won't stop. He laughs. In order for us to get him to even notice it, it would likely involve serious pain on both our parts, and we are not willing to go that far.

We really havn't found a method that works. It's like he knows he is doing something wrong, but doesn't grasp why. Like when he hits his sisters. We explian that it hurts them, just like it hurts him when he gets hit by his older sister. He just doesn't understand that analogy, or any others similiar. We have to exert a lot of paitince with him and try showing him the right way, but with him being so young, many methods just don't get across to him as it being something bad. One day, my hope is that he will be able to bottle all his energy, and make us a fortune