This just absolutely pisses me off

[Calamity Jane]

This just absolutely pisses me off [Edited due to technical diff]

LOS ANGELES (Jan. 22) - With Super Bowl Sunday just days away, federal immigration officials in San Diego have arrested ''a number'' of foreign-born residents with access to the game's venue, Qualcomm Stadium, in an unprecedented security crackdown, officials said Wednesday.

The plan, known as ''Operation Game Day,'' is part of a $9 million post-Sept. 11 anti-terrorism effort that includes beefed up security at the California-Mexico border, a no-fly zone over the stadium, military air patrols and an elaborate camera system monitoring every inch of the stadium and environs.

Arab-American groups estimated at least 36 people have been detained -- mostly Middle Eastern and Latino workers who were security guards or concession workers at the stadium. Foreign-born taxi and bus drivers have also been arrested. The San Diego Union Tribune quoted sources as saying 80 people were being held.

The U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service is revealing little about the operation and at first denied comment before issuing a statement with a few details, but no numbers.

''We are confirming that we do have an ongoing operation in San Diego aimed at providing security for the Super Bowl,'' INS spokeswoman Lauren Mack said. ''Our agency is involved in looking at security guards and transportation workers (in the San Diego area).''

The INS would not divulge the number of arrests or the ethnic identities of those detained, but said the sweep was ''continuing.''

'NUMBER OF ARRESTS'

''We are not giving numbers of arrests until investigation is completed,'' Mack said. ''We have made a number of arrests of individuals suspected of violating immigration and criminal laws.''

Mack said detainees would be held at federal detention facilities until hearings were held to determine whether they were eligible for release on bail.

Sam Hamod, spokesman for San Diego's Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee, characterized the arrests as ''ethnic cleansing.''

''They have targeted what they say are illegals who are in their database,'' Hamod said. ''The problem is we don't know what the database is saying. People are in the database because of the (INS) slowdown in processing (their immigration applications) or people have been witnesses for the government and that's why they are in there.''

Hamod said he has received dozens of calls over the past few days from frightened Arab community members who reported that the government seemed interested in taxi drivers, concession workers and security guards of Afghan, Iranian, Arab and Mexican origin.

Civil libertarians doubted whether the broad sweep would net any potential terrorists and said the INS appeared to be backtracking on a pledge of amnesty for residents whose immigration paperwork was caught in government limbo.

''It is just another example of the government engaging in a broad, suspicionless profile based on nothing more than immigration status and national origin,'' said Jordan Budd, legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union of San Diego.

''We (the American government) are targeting people who present no threat but who we need to build the strongest relations with (because) they are the eyes and ears of the community.''

'PIECE OF CAKE'

The last time the Super Bowl was played in San Diego was 1998, when things were ''significantly different,'' Assistant Police Chief Bill Maheu said.

On game day, military air patrols will enforce a temporary no-fly zone within seven miles of the stadium, he added.

The XXXVII Super Bowl pitting the Oakland Raiders against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers won't have the same national security rating as last year's contest in New Orleans -- it has been downgraded to the same level as a national political convention, said Jim Steeg, NFL senior vice president of special events.

But the custom-made security plan is far more sophisticated than the last-minute measures put in place just months after the Sept. 11, 2001 hijack attacks, he said.

Most of the 67,000 fans attending the game will have to park about five miles from Qualcomm Stadium and present game tickets to board shuttles to the stadium complex, where they will all undergo the same type of screening as airline passengers, Maheu said.

Staff and media working the event were issued the same photo badges, made by ImageWare Systems Inc. of San Diego, that are used to secure the U.S. House of Representatives and Senate, said ImageWare Chief Executive Jim Miller.

The software has never been used at a sporting event, Miller said, but then, ''traditionally in our society we don't use this kind of thing at sporting events.''

Once inside, a 50-camera video surveillance system monitors practically every corner of the stadium but will rely on human eyes rather than face-recognition software to spot problems.

''We are not using that because it doesn't work,'' Maheu said. ''You are talking about people who convince a 17-year-old girl to wrap herself in explosives and walk into a venue -- her face won't be in the database.''

''What's better is this girl walks into a San Diego venue with a trench coat on and it's 75 degrees and a security officer sees her,'' Maheu said. ''That's accurate.''

Although San Diego police were conducting ''several'' undercover operations throughout the city this week, so far no plots have been uncovered. ''Piece of cake,'' Maheu said. ''Ask me Monday. I hope I say the same thing.''

REUTERS Reut18:35 01-22-03

Copyright 2003 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon.

Can someone explain to me why this is ok? I realize that these people are not citizens and 'therefore don't have constitutional rights' because I just spent the last 20 minutes getting that drilled into my head by Mr PCG... he's apparently totally ok with this. His reasoning is 'If they're not citizens and they're suspected of violating our laws, then they're a security risk and should be arrested and deported.'

I'm not terribly comfortable with the idea of arresting people and 'detaining' them based on nationality... to keep a football game secure. It doesn't seem like a huge leap from there to arresting Chinatown and shipping the inhabitants to prison camps.

If France and Germany are 'against' us in this pending war with Iraq, do we start arresting them too? Afterall, we know that Germans are a bunch of fucking Nazis anyway.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Well you just posted.

 

[Calamity Jane]

I know. I was trying to post what I edited this one to say, and I kept getting an error message... so I typed a line of text and it posted.

The article above is what really had me pissed off.

 

[Azwed]

Re: This just absolutely pisses me off [Edited due to technical diff]

'therefore don't have constitutional rights'

Some people, me and probably STG among them, would argue that most constitutional rights are really natural rights and therefore all people have them regardless of nationality. Voting rights are about the only right excluded from this list because you obviously can't vote if you are a citizen.

Tell Mr. PCG to go read some John Locke.

 

[Guest]

I think security/precaution is important sometimes.

Maybe the government should pay out compensation cash for those who wrongfully detained.

 

[Silverluna]

Re: Re: This just absolutely pisses me off [Edited due to technical diff]

Some people, me and probably STG among them, would argue that most constitutional rights are really natural rights and therefore all people have them regardless of nationality. Voting rights are about the only right excluded from this list because you obviously can't vote if you are a citizen.

Tell Mr. PCG to go read some John Locke.

i love John Locke!!

 

[april-wine]

Apparently we didn't learn our lessons, from the Japanese internment camps.........

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

Re: This just absolutely pisses me off [Edited due to technical diff]

I'm not terribly comfortable with the idea of arresting people and 'detaining' them based on nationality... to keep a football game secure. It doesn't seem like a huge leap from there to arresting Chinatown and shipping the inhabitants to prison camps.

Depends what they're being detained for. If someone has broken the law, they should be arrested if they're caught. If someone fits the profile of a terrorist and they're not legal immigrants, then they should be sent back (keep in mind that I'm a big advocate of legal immigration...immigration is valuable and important to our country).

I think it's a far cry from "arresting" Chinatown and shipping the inhabitants to prison camps. Our law enforcement organizations are being careful. The Super Bowl is a big "opportunity" for terrorists and all the reports I read say that they're eager to strike back at us.

If people are legal immigrants or are citizens, then they shouldn't be detained for "no reason" such as ethnic background, but I don't think that this is the case.

 

[april-wine]

Those reports have been coming out daily since 9/11....All major holidays, any gathering....I realize we need caution, and if they have reason to be detained, they should have been detained long before now....

 

[ithaqua]

Oddly I agree.

I think security/precaution is important sometimes.

Maybe the government should pay out compensation cash for those who wrongfully detained.

In a capitalistic society like ours, this would make the powers that be think thrice before detaining anyone. Besides, being "detained" can really screw with a person's life. It is inconvenient, and it can be catastrophic.

 

[CoolidgEffect]

It worries me that we will be one step away from interning US citizens thay way we did to the Japanese-Americans during WW II.

Will we feel safer? How far away is Big Brother from you?

Also who is paying for all of this? The NFL? It's their party we are supposedly protecting. No, I bet it comes out of the depleted tax coffers.

 

[Myrrdin]

You either have free entry to anyone and every one who wants to enter the country. Or you have rules as to who can or not enter ,and what they can or not do.
If you have rules you have to police them. Otherwise hand Superbowl tickets out to everyone who crosses your borders.

 

[Calamity Jane]

Some people, me and probably STG among them, would argue that most constitutional rights are really natural rights and therefore all people have them regardless of nationality. Voting rights are about the only right excluded from this list because you obviously can't vote if you are a citizen.

Tell Mr. PCG to go read some John Locke.

I would agree with you that the rights I think have been violated are basic rights that should be afforded to all human beings. He thinks I'm acting like a crazy liberal.

And I think you meant 'aren't a citizen'

Depends what they're being detained for. If someone has broken the law, they should be arrested if they're caught. If someone fits the profile of a terrorist and they're not legal immigrants, then they should be sent back (keep in mind that I'm a big advocate of legal immigration...immigration is valuable and important to our country).

I agree that if it's proven that you're here illegally or are here legally, but have violated the terms of your visa that you should be deported. I don't think you should be detained indefinitely.

I think it's a far cry from "arresting" Chinatown and shipping the inhabitants to prison camps. Our law enforcement organizations are being careful. The Super Bowl is a big "opportunity" for terrorists and all the reports I read say that they're eager to strike back at us.

Is it really that big of a leap though. I'd like to know how many illegal Canadian and Irish and British and Denmarkian immigrants were arrested i nthis sweep, and how many were arrested due to their skin color.

If people are legal immigrants or are citizens, then they shouldn't be detained for "no reason" such as ethnic background, but I don't think that this is the case.

I don't thik they went through NOLA before Mardi Gras and arrested all the illegals. Last I heard, large cities still had thriving hispanic and arab communitites. When I was in Chicago a few months ago, I even saw Arab looking men ON THE EL!!!! They weren't being arrested in 'sweeps'... and I seriously doubt that they were all legal residents.

A friend of mine is Hawaiian. He has dark skin and black hair. He recently grew a beard. When he was flying back here from Hawaii after going to see his mother, he was detained and questioned for 8 hours because he 'fit a demographic'. Do you honestly think that's ok?

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

I don't thik they went through NOLA before Mardi Gras and arrested all the illegals. Last I heard, large cities still had thriving hispanic and arab communitites. When I was in Chicago a few months ago, I even saw Arab looking men ON THE EL!!!! They weren't being arrested in 'sweeps'... and I seriously doubt that they were all legal residents.

There aren't enough agents to sweep everyplace eveywhere. Choices have to be made. It seems to me that the Super Bowl is such a big "opportunity" for striking us, that's its a prudent choice to focuse security on it.

A friend of mine is Hawaiian. He has dark skin and black hair. He recently grew a beard. When he was flying back here from Hawaii after going to see his mother, he was detained and questioned for 8 hours because he 'fit a demographic'. Do you honestly think that's ok?

Many innocent people died in the last attacks. The terrorists fit a clear demographic. I'm glad that security is focusing their limited resources on identifying and mititaging risks in the most efficient methods possible. I'm glad that they've stopped detaining little old white haired ladies as possible threats. I'm sorry that your friend was detained, but the fact that they're thoroughly checking out possible threats makes me feel more secure when I fly. I hope that we win this war soon and things can return to "normal" again.

 

[CoolidgEffect]

A friend of mine is Hawaiian. He has dark skin and black hair. He recently grew a beard. When he was flying back here from Hawaii after going to see his mother, he was detained and questioned for 8 hours because he 'fit a demographic'. Do you honestly think that's ok?

I witnessed a similar but less dramatic experience. I was flying with two friends and while we were waiting to board the plane I decided to go to the book store to find a souvenir for the kids. Anyway. When I turned around to go back to my two friends I found them surrounded by 4 security guards. The guards were not actually doing anything more than surrounding my friends and watching them. Both friends are US citizens. One is of Chinese decent, the other of Arab decent. Well it really pissed me off. Two law abiding citizens and they are singled out. I felt it was at least a mild form of harassment. I could not imagine living in their skin with security people constantly following you around, waiting for you to do something more suspicious then having dark skin and hair so they can arrest you.

 

[Calamity Jane]

You either have free entry to anyone and every one who wants to enter the country. Or you have rules as to who can or not enter ,and what they can or not do.
If you have rules you have to police them. Otherwise hand Superbowl tickets out to everyone who crosses your borders.

I think that's the stupidest argument I've ever heard. No offense.

I could not imagine living in their skin with security people constantly following you around, waiting for you to do something more suspicious then having dark skin and hair so they can arrest you.

I think that's exactly it. IMO, if you choose to go to the superbowl, you're assuming a risk. Just like when I get on the interstate, I assume the risk that there might be a drunk dumbass behind the wheel of his car. Or that when I go to Walmart, there might be a dumbass with his kids in his car doing donuts in the parking lot. Being an American means taking a risk every day. And it's a pretty small risk compared to other parts of the world.

Arab 'looking' people are taking a risk just walking out of their houses everyday. That bothers me.

 

[modest mouse]

If security is cross referencing a database of workers and htose with access against illegal immigrants, then its merely good INS work and functions as a natural extension of what their job is: to police borders and remove illegals.

 

[patient1]

When's the last time anybody heard of an INS sweep to kick illegal Canadians out of Michigan, or illegal Irish out of Boston? I think there's selective enforcement afoot.

I can't help but wonder if somebody in security wasn't looking for an excuse for a free superbowl trip.

I have no tolerance for detention- prosecute or deport accordingly.

 

[Calamity Jane]

If security is cross referencing a database of workers and htose with access against illegal immigrants, then its merely good INS work and functions as a natural extension of what their job is: to police borders and remove illegals.

My question is... are they removing ALL the illegals, or just the illegals who fir a 'threat demographic'? Did they cross reference a list of every employee of the venue, or list of employees of everyone who is contracted with the venue to provide food or cleaning supplies, or did they only target the list most likely to contain Hispanics and Arabs... the concessions and transportation people?

 

[Calamity Jane]

When's the last time anybody heard of an INS sweep to kick illegal Canadians out of Michigan, or illegal Irish out of Boston? I think there's selective enforcement afoot.

I can't help but wonder if somebody in security wasn't looking for an excuse for a free superbowl trip.

I have no tolerance for detention- prosecute or deport accordingly.

The response to that exact same statement when I said it to Mr PCG.

" I can't believe I'm married to such a naive idealist. You honestly believe that a subclass of people, and that's what illegals are, should have the same rights as everyone else? The very fact that they're here illegally and that they fit the terrorist demographic, makes them a security risk. They SHOULD be rounded up."

 

[Mischka]

My question is... are they removing ALL the illegals, or just the illegals who fit a 'threat demographic'? Did they cross reference a list of every employee of the venue, or list of employees of everyone who is contracted with the venue to provide food or cleaning supplies, or did they only target the list most likely to contain Hispanics and Arabs... the concessions and transportation people?

The article said they are targeting the security and transportation employees, presumably because those are the ones with the greatest access to structurally damaging the venue site with explosives. This is not merely a football game; it is a very popular annual event in a venue filled with loads of people. Al Queda is targeting symbols of the U.S., and the Super Bowl is one such symbol unique to the U.S.

While I do not agree with limitless detention, I am glad they are targeting those suspected of violating immigration laws and other criminal acts instead of all immigrants. The suspected terrorists fit a demographic, and it doesn't make sense to target every single foreign-born person.

 

[The Heretic]

I'm sorry that your friend was detained, but the fact that they're thoroughly checking out possible threats makes me feel more secure when I fly.[/B]

This is a naive outlook on the issue. These are feel good measures, and attempts to look good in the public eye - little more. Detaining illegal immigrants doesn't increase your security one whit. A terrorist is either going to be in this country legally (or apparently legally), or they are going to have documents that indicate they are here legally. Moreover, all of the attention on illegal immigrants takes attention and resources away from terrorists, some of whom have been here legally for a number of years, some of whom are citizens here.

I hope that we win this war soon and things can return to "normal" again.

With all due respect, it sounds like you haven't been paying attention to what the government has been saying about this "war on terrorism"; it is a long term "war" that may last 20 years or more. As far as they are concerned we are in it for the long haul. This is not Desert Storm where we go in and bomb the fuck out of somebody for a few months then roll over them with tanks for a few days and declare victory.

 

[The Heretic]

The response to that exact same statement when I said it to Mr PCG.

" I can't believe I'm married to such a naive idealist. You honestly believe that a subclass of people, and that's what illegals are, should have the same rights as everyone else? The very fact that they're here illegally and that they fit the terrorist demographic, makes them a security risk. They SHOULD be rounded up."

MR. PCG should read this:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

Nowhere in there does it say that only citizens have rights. When Jefferson wrote "all men" he meant all of humanity, not just people who were citizens of the US. At that time there was no such thing as a citizen of the US.

While I will agree that people breaking the law are subject to arrest and detention, illegal immigrants are the least of our worries right now. As I said above, such arrests and detentions are mostly feel good actions on the part of the government.

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

This is a naive outlook on the issue. These are feel good measures, and attempts to look good in the public eye - little more. Detaining illegal immigrants doesn't increase your security one whit. A terrorist is either going to be in this country legally (or apparently legally), or they are going to have documents that indicate they are here legally. Moreover, all of the attention on illegal immigrants takes attention and resources away from terrorists, some of whom have been here legally for a number of years, some of whom are citizens here.

I think detaining illegal immigrants who fit the demographic for terrorists is a reasonable risk mitigator. Many of the terrorists that participated in 9/11 had suspicious backgrounds, enough so that many of them had been identified already. I'd rather be a little safer and have our law enforcement agencies thoroughly screen people who may fit the demographic than to screen everyone or to screen no one.

I think that they're screening for terrorists and if they find illegal aliens during the search, they're handling them in accordance with the laws. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what it sounds like to me.

With all due respect, it sounds like you haven't been paying attention to what the government has been saying about this "war on terrorism"; it is a long term "war" that may last 20 years or more. As far as they are concerned we are in it for the long haul. This is not Desert Storm where we go in and bomb the fuck out of somebody for a few months then roll over them with tanks for a few days and declare victory.

I know that its a long term "war", though I still hope that it ends and things can return to "normal". Hope and pragmatism aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

 

[Guest]

A friend of mine is Hawaiian. He has dark skin and black hair. He recently grew a beard. When he was flying back here from Hawaii after going to see his mother, he was detained and questioned for 8 hours because he 'fit a demographic'. Do you honestly think that's ok?

sorry about your friend but since 9/11, security comes before personal rights. We have to make it a priority. Profiling exists for a reason.