This is so wrong!

[shereads]

How the hell do you know? You know nothing about me.....just like I know nothing about you.

Is there anyway at all you can discuss something without insulting someone who believes differently than you?

Tell me I'm wrong. If you think it's insulting to be accused of failing to communicate with your elected officials when you think they've lied or done something disreputable, tell me you have. If you think you're perfectly right to accept their decisions without question, then it isn't an insult, is it? It's just an assumption.

You started this, C. You twisted something that meant a lot to me into something ugly, to serve your agenda. I spent a long night looking at those pictures and trying to come to terms with the role I played in their deaths. I played a role, and so did you and every adult of voting age in this country. Even if our role was doing nothing, we are responsible for their deaths. If you can't see the pain behind what I posted last night, it's your shallowness and not my insensitivity that's to blame.

Lauren, thank you. It should have meant something, but it didn't.

 

[cloudy]

When all one has to do to be called a Bush-basher is to publish something so indisputable as the photos and names of fallen soldiers without any subtext or explicit political message and still everyone knows what it means, it should tell you something. It should mean something.

Looking away, ignoring those dead in defense of your flag, is a cowardice. No rhetoric can change that.

We already know that Dick Cheney and Ahmad Chalabi and Donald Rumsfeld and George W. Bush choose to look away. That's fact.

With all due respect, Lauren, I posted what bothered me - it was the first post in Sheread's thread.....and that is, undoubtedly, an explicit political message.

 

[cloudy]

Tell me I'm wrong. If you think it's insulting to be accused of failing to communicate with your elected officials when you think they've lied or done something disreputable, tell me you have. If you think you're perfectly right to accept their decisions without question, then it isn't an insult, is it? It's just an assumption.

You started this, C. You twisted something that meant a lot to me into something ugly, to serve your agenda. I spent a long night looking at those pictures and trying to come to terms with the role I played in their deaths. I played a role, and so did you and every adult of voting age in this country. Even if our role was doing nothing, we are responsible for their deaths. If you can't see the pain behind what I posted last night, it's your shallowness and not my insensitivity that's to blame.

Lauren, thank you. It should have meant something, but it didn't.

You're wrong.

I twisted nothing. I even quoted you. Would you like me to copy it here, yet again? If it was meant to honor the dead, there was absolutely no reason to say what you did. In the interest of being reasonable, I will say that if you intended no disrespect, then I apologize, but I took the political comment as extremely disrespectful.

I write letters, I make phone calls, I've even worked on some campaigns, not that its any of your business.

I accept responsiblity.....that's not what bothers me. Don't turn this into a personal smear campaign, because I didn't start that.

Honoring the soldiers that won't ever come home would have been wonderful. Using them sucks.

 

[Omni]

My post here is to specifically say that I support Cloudy's post and opinion on it.

You are not alone. Cloudy, And I hope the private PM's at least show that to you.

I never read, nor post on political threads. I purposefully stay away from them. Unfortunately, the two threads "Faces" and Cloudy's did not look at first glance political.

The reason, I do not is because this is an erotic AUTHORS hangout and I see no need nor purpose for all the political vitriol here.

Take it to GB, already over run with them, altho I do not think they belong there either, there are plenty of sites/message boards dealing with politics out there. It is really unfair to the spirit of an amateur erotic writing site and the Authors Hangout portion to have it here. I do not believe that people come here looking for this at all. I certainly do not.

But, since I was drawn in, I must say that Shereads on her thread "Faces" took what is cloaked as innocently non-political IE. the faces of USA dead soldiers and made it into a political slam by what she said in the beginning post, while offering the link.

It is not the faces, it is her stated political ideology on it and WHAT she used it for. Not the Washington Post, but her, and how she posted it.

There really too much to say to all I have read in these two threads. So, much that I would like to adamantly comment against. However, I will go back now, to trying to stay out of this where it does not really belong, leaving my two points.

Thank you Cloudy for publicly saying something.


Omni

 

[cloudy]

My post here is to specifically say that I support Cloudy's post and opinion on it.

You are not alone. Cloudy, And I hope the private PM's at least show that to you.

I never read, nor post on political threads. I purposefully stay away from them. Unfortunately, the two threads "Faces" and Cloudy's did not look at first glance political.

The reason, I do not is because this is an erotic AUTHORS hangout and I see no need nor purpose for all the political vitriol here.

Take it to GB, already over run with them, altho I do not think they belong there either, there are plenty of sites/message boards dealing with politics out there. It is really unfair to the spirit of an amateur erotic writing site and the Authors Hangout portion to have it here. I do not believe that people come here looking for this at all. I certainly do not.

But, since I was drawn in, I must say that Shereads on her thread "Faces" took what is cloaked as innocently non-political IE. the faces of USA dead soldiers and made it into a political slam by what she said in the beginning post, while offering the link.

It is not the faces, it is her stated political ideology on it and WHAT she used it for. Not the Washington Post, but her, and how she posted it.

There really too much to say to all I have read in these two threads. So, much that I would like to adamantly comment against. However, I will go back now, to trying to stay out of this where it does not really belong, leaving my two points.

Thank you Cloudy for publicly saying something.


Omni

You're very welcome, and thanks for having the courage to say what you think, as well.

 

[shereads]

My post here is to specifically say that I support Cloudy's post and opinion on it.

You are not alone. Cloudy, And I hope the private PM's at least show that to you.

I never read, nor post on political threads. I purposefully stay away from them. Unfortunately, the two threads "Faces" and Cloudy's did not look at first glance political.

The reason, I do not is because this is an erotic AUTHORS hangout and I see no need nor purpose for all the political vitriol here.

Take it to GB, already over run with them, altho I do not think they belong there either, there are plenty of sites/message boards dealing with politics out there. It is really unfair to the spirit of an amateur erotic writing site and the Authors Hangout portion to have it here. I do not believe that people come here looking for this at all. I certainly do not.

But, since I was drawn in, I must say that Shereads on her thread "Faces" took what is cloaked as innocently non-political IE. the faces of USA dead soldiers and made it into a political slam by what she said in the beginning post, while offering the link.

It is not the faces, it is her stated political ideology on it and WHAT she used it for. Not the Washington Post, but her, and how she posted it.

There really too much to say to all I have read in these two threads. So, much that I would like to adamantly comment against. However, I will go back now, to trying to stay out of this where it does not really belong, leaving my two points.

Thank you Cloudy for publicly saying something.


Omni

You're right, Omni. It really is just a porn site. I hadn't realized until this morning when I saw Cloudy's post that using a reference to dead soldiers in an attempt to gain some sympathy for the ones who aren't dead yet would be offensive. We owe the living a big smile, a thumbs-up and passive adherence to the status quo. We owe the dead our silence.

I'll refrain from mentioning anything unpleasant whenever there's a shortage of space for discussions of erotica. Meanwhile, there are people here in the AH who enjoy discussing erotica stories and also share an interest in politics. You don't have to read us. In all the discussions recently of what does and does not belong in the AH, I've never seen anyone explain why they feel compelled to read what offends or bores them.

 

[Couture]

I accept responsiblity.....that's not what bothers me. Don't turn this into a personal smear campaign, because I didn't start that.

I think you did. I didn't originally read the other thread, but now that I have, it's pretty clear that you singled Shereads out and said she had sunk to an all-time low. Now, you might not have mentioned names, but it was clear to anyone who read, just who you were talking about.

As I said previously. I didn't go to the link in question, because it has been an emotional few days for me already, and I didn't need another cross to bear. However, last week, I read an article from Jo Wilding. I think she is probably the only American left in Fallujah at the moment. Here's a link to the article. Inside the Fire

I warn you. It is emotionally draining. At least it was for me. And I remember the feelings I felt after reading it. I felt lost. I felt sad. I felt powerless. I felt betrayed. And I was angry. Unbelievably angry at the liars who got us into this quagmire. And if I hadn't have had the chance to vent at the Kerry meetup, I would have most assuredly come to the Lit board and given you good people a piece of my mind.

My point here in all of this, is that these are extreme times. And we are all of us, every last one, tossed about on the waves of extremism. So while we may flail about to try to catch hold of something stable and sane, let's all try especially hard, not to hit at the person drowning next to us.

And that's about all I have to say about that.

 

[shereads]

I think you did. I didn't originally read the other thread, but now that I have, it's pretty clear that you singled Shereads out and said she had sunk to an all-time low. Now, you might not have mentioned names, but it was clear to anyone who read, just who you were talking about.

As I said previously. I didn't go to the link in question, because it has been an emotional few days for me already, and I didn't need another cross to bear. However, last week, I read an article from Jo Wilding. I think she is probably the only American left in Fallujah at the moment. Here's a link to the article. Inside the Fire

I warn you. It is emotionally draining. At least it was for me. And I remember the feelings I felt after reading it. I felt lost. I felt sad. I felt powerless. I felt betrayed. And I was angry. Unbelievably angry at the liars who got us into this quagmire. And if I hadn't have had the chance to vent at the Kerry meetup, I would have most assuredly come to the Lit board and given you good people a piece of my mind.

My point here in all of this, is that these are extreme times. And we are all of us, every last one, tossed about on the waves of extremism. So while we may flail about to try to catch hold of something stable and sane, let's all try especially hard, not to hit at the person drowning next to us.

And that's about all I have to say about that.

Thank you C.

That was brave.



S

 

[cloudy]

of course, my feelings or emotions don't matter at all, because all that matters is the agenda get pushed forward.

I'm absolutely sorry for hurting anyone, but I stand by what I said. It's still wrong.

 

[shereads]

I felt lost. I felt sad. I felt powerless. I felt betrayed. And I was angry. Unbelievably angry at the liars who got us into this quagmire.

Yes. God, yes. Somebody gets it. You have no idea what it means to hear that somebody gets it.

 

[Couture]

of course, my feelings or emotions don't matter at all, because all that matters is the agenda get pushed forward.

I'm absolutely sorry for hurting anyone, but I stand by what I said. It's still wrong.

I empathize with you cloudy. I understand where you are coming from. Especially so, since your brother-in-law died in 9/11.

All I am asking is that you put yourself in Shereads position. That after seeing the faces of those who died, she couldn't help but to lash out at those she felt were responsible. It's human nature.

She meant no disrespect to those that had lost their lives, I assure you. If you told her that if she gave up everything she owned, that one of those faces would still be alive, I believe she would. So to suggest that she doesn't respect the dead is absurd.

 

[shereads]

I'm absolutely sorry for hurting anyone, but I stand by what I said. It's still wrong.

You have no idea the hurt you caused today. And you're so not sorry that it drips off the page.

 

[cloudy]

I empathize with you cloudy. I understand where you are coming from. Especially so, since your brother-in-law died in 9/11.

All I am asking is that you put yourself in Shereads position. That after seeing the faces of those who died, she couldn't help but to lash out at those she felt were responsible. It's human nature.

She meant no disrespect to those that had lost their lives, I assure you. If you told her that if she gave up everything she owned, that one of those faces would still be alive, I believe she would. So to suggest that she doesn't respect the dead is absurd.

I don't object to her lashing out. Her political beliefs are, frankly, none of my damn business, and I don't care about that in the least. It bothered me, intensely, to see what she explains as a memorial site used with that lashing out. To me, it was just like saying "see, I'm right....see all these dead people, and know that I'm right."

If it truly is a memorial, and it may well be, then shouldn't it be left as that? I, too, would give everything to not have lost those lives.

Things are said here hastily sometimes, without thought of how others may "read" them, and possibly not see the meaning we intended. I honestly don't think she meant any disrespect, but I certainly saw it, intended or not, and was just calling attention to how I,and possibly others, felt about the way the information was presented.

 

[cloudy]

You have no idea the hurt you caused today. And you're so not sorry that it drips off the page.

I am sorry for hurting anyone, which is more than I've heard you say. Believe what you want, I really don't care. I still stand by what I said and I'm definitely not sorry for stating what I think, agree with it or not, I have just as much right to my convictions as you do to yours.

I said what I thought, I didn't call you any names, but you can say whatever the hell you want, and then cry about how hurt you are? Oh, please.

You can hurt, but no one else can. And you, apparently, have no idea the hurt you caused, and so bluntly stated you weren't apologizing for.

Again, whatever.

 

[lucky-E-leven]

I didn't take Sher's post on 'Faces' as anything but pure pain and sorrow on her part for lives lost. I feel like I have a decent handle on how she feels about different political issues and am proudly standing beside her and sharing in her pain over each and every one of those faces. Do I like that this is even an issue? Absolutely not. Do I recognize that hundreds of lives have been lost? Absolutely.

I don't think you're being disrespectful of the dead Cloudy, but I also disagree with the fact that because young Americans volunteer that their death should affect me any less than if they were drafted or killed in a car accident. Loss of life is horrendous under any circumstance and I want to know all of their names. I want to know what we're missing out on because they died.

I personally feel as though Sher is taking a lot of abuse simply because she is so outspoken about her disdain for this administration. I wonder how things might've gone if I had posted the link and said I was saddened beyond words by looking into the faces of those young soldiers. I'm not putting words into anyone's mouth and I don't hold a grudge with anyone for stating their views, but I honestly think if anyone else had posted that thread that at least half of this thread would be obsolete. I'm not saying that is a certainty, but I do think it's quite probable.

Respectfully,
~lucky

p.s. In my mind, the bottom line is that everyone who has posted here is mourning the loss of those service members in one way or another. If you think that a website showing their faces and listing their names is somehow defaming them, then I'd like to hear any ideas on what would be acceptable to you as far as public recognition for their sacrifice.

 

[cloudy]

Lucky, thanks for stating what you think in a way that is not insulting or patronizing.

If it had been worded in that post as you said, I wouldn't have found a thing to object about....would probably have posted to agree, to be honest. And I've taken a lot of abuse for pointing out that our soldiers that have fallen shouldn't be used with a political agenda.

Omni put it better than I have, actually:

"But, since I was drawn in, I must say that Shereads on her thread "Faces" took what is cloaked as innocently non-political IE. the faces of USA dead soldiers and made it into a political slam by what she said in the beginning post, while offering the link."

It wasn't the memorial site that bothered me, or even that it was posted here, it was the way it was presented.

 

[mismused]

Cloudy, Shereads:

I won't say what position(s) I take, and I know that I'm new to most here, but I just wanted to say that I've read off and on here, and it's breaking my heart.

You're both so intelligent, and both so sure, and, I must say, looking at it from each of your points of view, I can see why you're so sure.

And that's it!

You're both sure, intelligent, and something has struck a heartfelt cord in each of you that had to be let out.

An honest, heartfelt cord. Both of you.

Please forgive me (if I actually do post this message), but you both sound like wonderful people that if this had not happened, and you met by chance, you'd probably find so much that you could see to be friends about.

I don't know anything about either of you, or if there's ever been "words" between you two before, but I think that if you could both pull back and see the intent of each other's heart, that you'd want to hug, and cry over the sad state that we're all in right now.

If you can, drop your own point of view for the sake of "possibilities" possibly missed, and try to look at each other's point of view.

Sorry if I'm out of line. If so, my apoligies. I do feel for each of you, and for all that are over there, whatever their personal reasons, which I know almost none of, though I'm sure that they are myriad. Please forgive me, and more, each other.

Thanks,

m

 

[shereads]

Before you get the last word and the trophy you earned this morning for Most Cowardly Attempt To Embarrass Someone Without Appearing Confrontational, please explain the frequent reference to "name calling." I gets rough in the political threads, and people who haven't researched the topics they introduce do tend to catch the brunt of it. But name calling? I can recall being called part of The Liberal Hive by you or amicus or somebody a few weeks ago (I loved the image, because us lefts do identify with the worker bees). I recall calling you "Cloudy." Was there something else?

 

[cloudy]

Re: Cloudy, Shereads:

I won't say what position(s) I take, and I know that I'm new to most here, but I just wanted to say that I've read off and on here, and it's breaking my heart.

You're both so intelligent, and both so sure, and, I must say, looking at it from each of your points of view, I can see why you're so sure.


And that's it!

You're both sure, intelligent, and something has struck a heartfelt cord in each of you that had to be let out.

An honest, heartfelt cord. Both of you.

Please forgive me (if I actually do post this message), but you both sound like wonderful people that if this had not happened, and you met by chance, you'd probably find so much that you could see to be friends about.

I don't know anything about either of you, or if there's ever been "words" between you two before, but I think that if you could both pull back and see the intent of each other's heart, that you'd want to hug, and cry over the sad state that we're all in right now.

If you can, drop your own point of view for the sake of "possibilities" possibly missed, and try to look at each other's point of view.

Sorry if I'm out of line. If so, my apoligies. I do feel for each of you, and for all that are over there, whatever their personal reasons, which I know almost none of, though I'm sure that they are myriad. Please forgive me, and more, each other.

Thanks,

m

You have a point there, and thanks for posting it.

No, we've never had words, and I've always had respect for Sher in that at least she had some convictions, and was willing to state what she believes, even if I don't always agree with her.

New or not, you're certainly entitled to post your thoughts, and I welcome them. Soft words of wisdom sometimes are heard much better than those that are screamed.

I've apologized several times for any hurt I've caused, but just because I've apologized for hurt, doesn't mean I think what I said was out of line. Whether anyone believes me is strictly their business. I don't have anything at all against Shereads........was just statiing how I felt.

 

[shereads]

Re: Cloudy, Shereads:

Sorry if I'm out of line. If so, my apoligies. I do feel for each of you, and for all that are over there, whatever their personal reasons, which I know almost none of, though I'm sure that they are myriad. Please forgive me, and more, each other.

Thanks,

m [/B]

Don't ever apologize for saying something from your heart, m, to the people you think need to hear it. That kind of honesty is appreciated.

I'm only sorry that this has upset some people to the extent that they felt the need to intervene, privately and here.

It's a sad way to welcome you to the forum, but I do. Welcome.

 

[cloudy]

Before you get the last word and the trophy you earned this morning for Most Cowardly Attempt To Embarrass Someone Without Appearing Confrontational, please explain the frequent reference to "name calling." I gets rough in the political threads, and people who haven't researched the topics they introduce do tend to catch the brunt of it. But name calling? I can recall being called part of The Liberal Hive by you or amicus or somebody a few weeks ago (I loved the image, because us lefts do identify with the worker bees). I recall calling you "Cloudy." Was there something else?

Just look in your post above..."Coward." I may be a lot of things, but "coward" isn't one of them, I promise.

I meant no emarassment, Sher, honest. I just felt that it was wrong. If I hurt you by stating that......I'm sorry. Your post hurt me to the core....to the point where I was in tears when I started this thread......others pm'd me that they didn't dare join in because they didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but they were giving me their support privately.....some of them said they were in tears as well. It took all my courage to even bother to post what I thought because I knew what type of replies I was likely to receive, but I felt that strongly about it that I just had to.

No trophy wanted or needed. I just wanted to make myself heard, that's all.

 

[lucky-E-leven]

Lucky, thanks for stating what you think in a way that is not insulting or patronizing.

If it had been worded in that post as you said, I wouldn't have found a thing to object about....would probably have posted to agree, to be honest.

Omni put it better than I have, actually:

"But, since I was drawn in, I must say that Shereads on her thread "Faces" took what is cloaked as innocently non-political IE. the faces of USA dead soldiers and made it into a political slam by what she said in the beginning post, while offering the link."

It wasn't the memorial site that bothered me, or even that it was posted here, it was the way it was presented.

I believe you. I really do.

I also believe that you might have Sher pegged all wrong. She's hard as hell to argue with and stubborn as a mule sometimes, but I think it's obvious to see that the fervor behind her arguments comes from pain and disappointment. I don't want to attempt to speak for her, but I can relate to many of the things she's said here.

To be fair, I can just as easily see the motivation behind your points here and I think they're well intended. It's just hard to watch two passionate people arguing for the same things, but standing on opposite sides of the fence. You want those lives to mean something. So does she.

I understand that you think she's pushing a personal agenda, but I can look at her words and see that in her mind the lives lost and the reasons for it are inextricably linked. Those service members volunteered to protect and serve, but it sure does look like their service was called for under false pretenses. Not making a political statement here at all. Just saying that when people are led to slaughter and evidence turns up that it was unnecessary or preventable that outrage and pain is soon to follow.

I still stand by my previous bottom line and hope it's one we can all agree on...Many men and women have paid the ultimate price and for their loss we should all mourn and remember.

~lucky

 

[shereads]

deleted

 

[Liar]

This has been a fascinating thread to read. Two intelligent, compassionate, well-spoken people who just can't even begin to understand what's going on on the other's side of the fence. Both firmly believing that their stand is the good and just one, and that the other's point of view is so horribly wrong that they will not remain silent about it. It is an amazing, albeit disturbing thing to watch, the subject matter so emotionally charged and poignant to you all, so hellbent on proving unproveable points.

I just had the chance and time to get through it all, and I must honestly say that although I am not prone to staying quiet in a political discuassion, I will not engage in this one. My disattachment from either side, being a guy in an agressively neutral corner of the world, makes me, I fear, a bit disqualified to speak.

All I have to say is this: Soldiers and civilian lives have been lost. Blood has been spilled, and when it does, one must always - no exception, not ever - go to the core of it all and ask two questions.

The first is "Why?". What did they sacrifice their lives for? Some would say that they died for deception, a dubious political agenda wrapped in smoke and mirrors of non existent threats. Some would disagree.

The second is "Was bloodshed avoidable?" Even if the future of mankind depended on the outcome of the Iraqi conflict, even if there had been nukes mounted on long range missiles all over the place, one must, I repeat must, ask this. And even moreso now, when so many questionmarks about the motives remain unanswered.

To see a list of names engraved on a stone, or as in this case faces on a web page, and not ask those questions is in my opinion the most irresponsible thing one can do, and disrespectful to the people who's lives are lost. If that is to "use" the memory of the dead to run a political agenda, then so be it. So in this, I'm standing behind Sher, I guess. But not in her analysis of the situation. Is the Bush administration really that much responsible for the outcome here? I cannot say that I know enough to make that desicion, and niether does that particular question belong in this thread.

Maybe I'm barking up a tree here that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. And I'm sure that I've said something to upset someone somewhere. This is not the intent, and for anyone who feels they deserv it, heres my apology.

That's all I had to say. I will not post anything else here about this, unless my post is, for some reason, sorely misunderstood.

war sucks
#L

 

[shereads]

To see a list of names engraved on a stone, or as in this case faces on a web page, and not ask those questions is in my opinion the most irresponsible thing one can do, and disrespectful to the people who's lives are lost. If that is to "use" the memory of the dead to run a political agenda, then so be it. So in this, I'm standing behind Sher, I guess. But not in her analysis of the situation. Is the Bush administration really that much responsible for the outcome here? I cannot say that I know enough to make that desicion, and niether does that particular question belong in this thread.

Thank you L.