This is so wrong!

[cloudy]

See previous post. She changed her story.

I think a good way to honor our dead is to ask our government to be accountable for why they sent them to die.

If I could save a living 18-year-old from dying in Iraq to save some politician's ass, by dishonoring our dead, I think I'd have to give it serious consideration.

Would you?

No?

That doesn't make you a better American. Just a more cooperative taxpayer.

I never "changed my story", thank you, I've been saying the same damn thing all the way through.

Amazes me how people resort to name calling and insults when they have nothing else to say.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Okay ladies, this is the last time........I'm stepping in the middle here. It's not always the best place to be, but I love both of you and I'm not going to allow this to go on.

Neutral corners now and listen up!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not afraid either, Ive broken up dog fights and was bitten, this is nothing. I've been in the middle of bar fights, this is nothing.

So here it is loud and clear. Each of you has expressed your opinions. Others have posted theirs. It is now here for the reading. There will be no more energy wasted on political debates, religious debates, or anything of the sort today.

What we have here is two very strong minded, intelligent woman who would make wonderful warriors, but since the Amazons are no longer around, I say let's make some peace amongst the family.

It was a great debate. I'ts what we wanted aside from silliness and flirting, but no one wants to see anyone get hurt feelings or be angry at one another.

I'm not going to make you shake hands, but lets be courteous and let these threads sink to the bottom now.

Agreed??????????

~A~ designated diverter

 

[shereads]

I appreciate the sentiment, Ab, and your willingless to step in to play peacemaker.
But there are more important issues at stake than hurt feelings.

This thread can go wherever the others take it, but I'm not letting the "Faces of the Fallen" thread sink anywhere today.

There's been little enough light shed on the truth, and too few people who were willing to break lock-step. Out-of-sight, out-of-mind has brought our country and the world to the brink of disaster, and cost people their lives, and I have a right to say it, and you have a right to ignore it.

I felt guilty when I clicked on this thread this morning and realized I had hurt Cloudy's feelings.

It was an impulse, because I hate to hurt anyone. But I feel a lot worse for the ones who are going to die because our country won't ackowledge that we made a mistake.

Cloudy thinks its offensive to "use" the fallen for political means. I think it's offensive to stand by quietly while their replacements are shipped to the front lines.

When this war is over, I'll at least know that nobody died because I stuck my head in the sand, or was afraid to speak up. I might not accomplish anything but I will have been true to myself.

Edited to add: again with the accusations of "name calling." Whatever.

 

[lewdandlicentious]

Can I just say here, as an ex serviceman, who served my country whenever called upon:

EVERYTHING YOU ARE SAYING HERE, WHICHEVER VIEW YOU HOLD IS, IN IT'S WAY, PAYING TRIBUTE TO THOSE THAT HAVE FALLEN FOR OUR FREEDOM!

You freedom to speak as you are, on this thread and others is justification enough to fight for freedom.

For us, and others who do not have it.

The freedom of speech you are executing here has been won by soldiers who have gone before.

Frankly I don't believe it matters how you remember them, just remember them!

Lew.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

This thread can go wherever the others take it, but I'm not letting the "Faces of the Fallen" thread sink anywhere today.

You won't be alone.

 

[cloudy]

Can I just say here, as an ex serviceman, who served my country whenever called upon:

EVERYTHING YOU ARE SAYING HERE, WHICHEVER VIEW YOU HOLD IS, IN IT'S WAY, PAYING TRIBUTE TO THOSE THAT HAVE FALLEN FOR OUR FREEDOM!

You freedom to speak as you are, on this thread and others is justification enough to fight for freedom.

For us, and others who do not have it.

The freedom of speech you are executing here has been won by soldiers who have gone before.

Frankly I don't believe it matters how you remember them, just remember them!

Lew.

Thanks, Lew......really good point.

 

[Guest]

Can I just say here, as an ex serviceman, who served my country whenever called upon:

EVERYTHING YOU ARE SAYING HERE, WHICHEVER VIEW YOU HOLD IS, IN IT'S WAY, PAYING TRIBUTE TO THOSE THAT HAVE FALLEN FOR OUR FREEDOM!

You freedom to speak as you are, on this thread and others is justification enough to fight for freedom.

For us, and others who do not have it.

The freedom of speech you are executing here has been won by soldiers who have gone before.

Frankly I don't believe it matters how you remember them, just remember them!

Lew.

Amen to that, Lew.

Thank you.

Katie

 

[Guest]

That doesn't make you a better American. Just a more cooperative taxpayer.

Harsh... never did I say anything about being a *better American*. The taxpayer thing is kind of funny. I have enough kids that I get back every penny I pay in... and then some.

I stay out of political debates and religious ones to, for the most part. Only reason I jumped in here was because I saw you ignoring the point Cloudy was trying to make. I read through the whole thread. I knew from her very first post why she was upset. You take every opportunity to blast Bush, even in places it doesn't need to be.

I am not saying that I agree or disagree with anything that is going on in our country. I don't like fact that my uncle is over there any more than anybody else likes the fact that their loved one is over there.

Debates about politics and religion, in my opinion, are pointless. You've got two sides arguing what they believe. Nobody's going to change their minds. What's the point? This an erotic story website, for goodness sake. Not a political site. I, for one, am getting very tired of seeing all the political shit thrown in my face everytime I get on here to read. I came to the AH to meet fellow writers and get to know them, not to see countless fights about what is going on in our country.

Go ahead, flame away... I know some of you will... and guess what?? I don't care.

 

[shereads]

Thank you, Lauren. It has certainly felt that way today.

 

[cloudy]

I appreciate the sentiment, Ab, and your willingless to step in to play peacemaker.
But there are more important issues at stake than hurt feelings.

This thread can go wherever the others take it, but I'm not letting the "Faces of the Fallen" thread sink anywhere today.

There's been little enough light shed on the truth, and too few people who were willing to break lock-step. Out-of-sight, out-of-mind has brought our country and the world to the brink of disaster, and cost people their lives, and I have a right to say it, and you have a right to ignore it.

I felt guilty when I clicked on this thread this morning and realized I had hurt Cloudy's feelings.

It was an impulse, because I hate to hurt anyone. But I feel a lot worse for the ones who are going to die because our country won't ackowledge that we made a mistake.

Cloudy thinks its offensive to "use" the fallen for political means. I think it's offensive to stand by quietly while their replacements are shipped to the front lines.

When this war is over, I'll at least know that nobody died because I stuck my head in the sand, or was afraid to speak up. I might not accomplish anything but I will have been true to myself.

Edited to add: again with the accusations of "name calling." Whatever.

"Truth" as you see it, Sher.

The thing that really, really bothers me is that there is absolutely no room for any opinion that differs. You might be right, I might be right......Just like the old saying "Opinions are like assholes......" It was never anything personal. As I stated in my very first post, politics are a very personal thing, and it's not about politics to begin with.

I said what I had to say and was personally attacked for it. Wonder why only the same people over and over again post in political threads? Did it ever occur to anyone that insults are not a way to debate anything? People don't like it, and are likely to hurl an insult back, turning what started out as a civilized debate, into a brawl.

Every single time, without fail, that I have posted an opinon even vaguely political, at least one person has insulted me for it. Not always the same one, granted, but always there's at least one.

I didn't hijack your thread, I even stated that I thought your posts were always well-thought out.....what do I get? "Don't patronize me.....you're not that good at it."

The hell with it.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I appreciate the sentiment, Ab, and your willingless to step in to play peacemaker.
But there are more important issues at stake than hurt feelings.

This thread can go wherever the others take it, but I'm not letting the "Faces of the Fallen" thread sink anywhere today.

There's been little enough light shed on the truth, and too few people who were willing to break lock-step. Out-of-sight, out-of-mind has brought our country and the world to the brink of disaster, and cost people their lives, and I have a right to say it, and you have a right to ignore it.

I felt guilty when I clicked on this thread this morning and realized I had hurt Cloudy's feelings.

It was an impulse, because I hate to hurt anyone. But I feel a lot worse for the ones who are going to die because our country won't ackowledge that we made a mistake.

Cloudy thinks its offensive to "use" the fallen for political means. I think it's offensive to stand by quietly while their replacements are shipped to the front lines.

When this war is over, I'll at least know that nobody died because I stuck my head in the sand, or was afraid to speak up. I might not accomplish anything but I will have been true to myself.

Edited to add: again with the accusations of "name calling." Whatever.

I appreciate your posting Sher, and you have brought a topic to the boards that many of us would not have seen.
You have also brought many folks here to come out and post opinions, and I believe that is what others have been talking about in light of some of the silliness that goes on.
I just have a thing about contorversy.
I can see both sides to the argument but I will step back and let things go on to where they need to go. I have voiced my opinion on the subject and will now slink back and leave this to the pros.

I too belived in the war being the right thing in the begining, when we thought there were WMD's but now I feel that we have been taken for fools, disrupted the lives on many civilians here and in Iraq, failed in our promises and erred in many judgements.

I will continue to be educated by the posts and threads made here, as I seem to miss so many things that should be read and discussed.

thanks, ~A~

 

[cloudy]

Harsh... never did I say anything about being a *better American*. The taxpayer thing is kind of funny. I have enough kids that I get back every penny I pay in... and then some.

I stay out of political debates and religious ones to, for the most part. Only reason I jumped in here was because I saw you ignoring the point Cloudy was trying to make. I read through the whole thread. I knew from her very first post why she was upset. You take every opportunity to blast Bush, even in places it doesn't need to be.

Thank you! At least one person is actually reading before they react!

(I get all my taxes, and then some, back too.....kids)

 

[shereads]

I appreciate your posting Sher, and you have brought a topic to the boards that many of us would not have seen.
You have also brought many folks here to come out and post opinions, and I believe that is what others have been talking about in light of some of the silliness that goes on.
I just have a thing about contorversy.
I can see both sides to the argument but I will step back and let things go on to where they need to go. I have voiced my opinion on the subject and will now slink back and leave this to the pros.

I too belived in the war being the right thing in the begining, when we thought there were WMD's but now I feel that we have been taken for fools, disrupted the lives on many civilians here and in Iraq, failed in our promises and erred in many judgements.

I will continue to be educated by the posts and threads made here, as I seem to miss so many things that should be read and discussed.

thanks, ~A~

Thanks, A. You're gracious to have come back to say that. Believe it or not, I don't enjoy controversy either. I'd love to ignore it. I can't. It hurts my heart to know that I might have fought harder to stop this senseless waste of beautiful young lives, and I failed. It hurts more to have a 15-year-old nephew who can hardly wait to join the army, and who trusts that whoever is in authority will be as careful with his life as they would be with their own.

If only.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Didn't Bush use films of 9/11 for his own political purposes? Didn't they defend such use by saying that they wanted people to remember. Does anyone buy that? He used those pictures for political purposes.

This war isn't about freedom, it isn't about our safety. The fact is that this is Bush's war. He pushed for it and he urged it on us. He made political hay out of it with that aircrafty carrier stunt when things lwere going well. It seems entirely appropriate to me that he take the blame for it when it goes badly.

The pictures of the dead are just that: pictures. Whether you see them as heroes or victims or martyrs or just good soldiers, they deserve to be seen. Each of us adds our own gloss or meaning to the faces, and each of us probably sees them differently, but in my opinion they deserve to be seen. What you feel as you look at them is up to you.

---dr.M.

 

[cloudy]

Didn't Bush use films of 9/11 for his own political purposes? Didn't they defend such use by saying that they wanted people to remember. Does anyone buy that? He used those pictures for political purposes.

This war isn't about freedom, it isn't about our safety. The fact is that this is Bush's war. He pushed for it and he urged it on us. He made political hay out of it with that aircrafty carrier stunt when things lwere going well. It seems entirely appropriate to me that he take the blame for it when it goes badly.

The pictures of the dead are just that: pictures. Whether you see them as heroes or victims or martyrs or just good soldiers, they deserve to be seen. Each of us adds our own gloss or meaning to the faces, and each of us probably sees them differently, but in my opinion they deserve to be seen. What you feel as you look at them is up to you.

---dr.M.

Again, bashing Bush. I'd hate to think you'd missed an opporturnity. My point is made.

 

[shereads]

Again, bashing Bush. I'd hate to think you'd missed an opporturnity. My point is made.

It certainly is. You aren't able to refute anything that's been said, so you you object to the fact that it's been said.

If GWB went on prime time television and announced that we went to war in Iraq because he lost a poker hand to Cheney, would you even care? What does it take to make you want to "bash" him too? Do you know WHY so many people are so angry with him? Have you read a newspaper lately? Do you know how unusual it is for there to be more than half a dozen books written about a president's lies and failures by people who saw it happening from the inside? Do you care whether he lied to take us to war?

 

[Couture]

Again, bashing Bush. I'd hate to think you'd missed an opporturnity. My point is made.

Cloudy, I know it seems a good to label everyone as a Bush basher. Really, I think if I met him, he'd probably be a likeable guy. Twenty years ago, I think it would have been fun to kick back and pull a good drunk with him.

However, the reason people people bash Bush about this whole Iraq fiasco, is that it IS George Bush's war. From every account. From O'Neil, Powell, Woodward, even Bush himself. They all point to the same fact. The decision for this war was from a very small cadre of individuals. Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Wolfowitz.

 

[cloudy]

It certainly is. You aren't able to refute anything that's been said, so you you object to the fact that it's been said.

If GWB went on prime time television and announced that we went to war in Iraq because he lost a poker hand to Cheney, would you even care? What does it take to make you want to "bash" him too? Do you know WHY so many people are so angry with him? Have you read a newspaper lately? Do you know how unusual it is for there to be more than half a dozen books written about a president's lies and failures by people who saw it happening from the inside? Do you care whether he lied to take us to war?

I hate to disabuse you of the notion that I'm a hick that hasn't "been to town" in 15 years, but it just isn't so.

Yes, I read. But I make up my own mind.

Do I agree with everything Bush has done? Absolutely not. Do I think anyone else could have done better with what he was handed? Again, absolutely not.

Sure he lies.....they all do, do you not realize that by now? I mean, c'mon, he's human just like you and me and all the presidents before him.

And just because someone is yelling the loudest, doesn't make them right, just makes them the loudest.

The difference between you and I is I'm not trying to pull anyone over to any side.....people can make up their own minds about things. And I'm not going to insult you for doing just that.

 

[shereads]

The difference between you and I is I'm not trying to pull anyone over to any side.....people can make up their own minds about things. And I'm not going to insult you for doing just that.

No, everyone does not lie to the extent that hundreds of people die and thousands more are destined to die. Hardly anyone does that.

And yes, in a participatory democracy, it's considered irresponsible to keep quiet. If people are making up their minds that Saddam Hussein was connected with 9/ll and you've seen documented evidence to the contrary, keeping quiet about it doesn't actually make you a better person. It makes you likeable, and that makes you happy. I don't happen to care if you like me, but I care very much that people are dying for a lie and that you think that's just politics as usual. My nephew will be cannon-fodder if you have your way, and the "Bush Bashers" just turn our backs on the truth to make you feel better.

Now back to the smaller lie: you say you don't insult people for fighting for their views, but this thread exists because you set out to do exactly that. You implied that I used dead soldiers as a political tool to serve my "agenda." That was insulting and hurtful to the point where I almost apologized for exercising my right and my duty to say that I hoped the people who sent these soldiers to die were cognizant of the enormity of what the lies about WMD have accomplished. When I posted my point of view, you backpedaled. It wasn't shereads who had an agenda, it was the bad people who posted this bad website that you hadn't looked at and didn't intend to. When you found out from others that there was nothing remotely poltiical about the website, and when I expressed my amazement that you had criticized it without looking at it, you switched tracks again and said that yes, it was my post that upset you, not the website.

If you set out to hurt or insult someone, at least have the courage to acknowledge that you did, in fact, mean to hurt or insult them.

 

[cloudy]

to quote you: "whatever"

It wasn't your political views I was objecting to.....I even said I don't care, and I don't.

I objected to using dead soldiers to further your own political views.

Give it up. I still think its wrong....and judging from the amount of pm's I've recieved, there's a lot of others that think its wrong too.

I didn't "back-pedal.".....I didn't want to name names, because I, too, dislike hurting people.

Want me to be blunt? Okay, you got it.

I think that posting what you did, and then bashing Bush does not constitute "honoring the dead" as you say. Its using them.

 

[shereads]

to quote you: "whatever"

It wasn't your political views I was objecting to.....I even said I don't care, and I don't.

That's what's so pathetic. And you're proud that you don't care, more's the pity. Give my nephew a chance to live to see 19, okay? Don't vote.

 

[cloudy]

That's what's so pathetic. And you're proud that you don't care, more's the pity. Give my nephew a chance to live to see 19, okay? Don't vote.

At least don't misquote me. I said I don't care what your political views are.

And, yes, damn proud that I don't get in others faces about what they believe. You certainly have the right to believe whatever you want to. Doesn't change the fact that using people who can no longer speak for themselves is just flat out wrong, no matter what your political views are. I would say the same to anyone, not just a "Bush-basher."

See above. That's my whole damn point.....seems everyone's inclined to ignore that, even you, and proceed to pointing the flame-throwers at me.

As Crimson said....."flame away," because it's not going to change my mind that using dead soldiers for your own ends is wrong. And, as she said, I don't care.

 

[shereads]

At least don't misquote me. I said I don't care what your political views are.

And, yes, damn proud that I don't get in others faces about what they believe. You certainly have the right to believe whatever you want to. Doesn't change the fact that using people who can no longer speak for themselves is just flat out wrong, no matter what your political views are. I would say the same to anyone, not just a "Bush-basher."

See above. That's my whole damn point.....seems everyone's inclined to ignore that, even you, and proceed to pointing the flame-throwers at me.

As Crimson said....."flame away," because it's not going to change my mind that using dead soldiers for your own ends is wrong. And, as she said, I don't care.

Making dead soldiers out of live soldiers for no specified reason bothers some of us. Did you write a letter to the president to complain when you found out he'd had Iraq on his agenda before 9/ll? Or is his misuse of these soldiers understandable because, as you pointed out, "everybody lies."

This isn't about accomplishing my ends; my life isn't on the line. It's about demanding some answers before MORE names and faces are added to that website. The point of all this Bush-bashing as you call it (a handy catch-phrase whenever Dr. M or anybody else presents you with a set of facts that you don't want to acknowledge but can't refute with any facts of your own) is that some of us think nothing is more important right now than protecting today's 15, 16 and 17 year olds from being next in line to die unless there's not only an excellent reason, but some evidence of a plan for what happens when they get to Bagdad.

The families of some of these dead kids would like some answers too. The administration doesn't have to give them any, as long as there are a sufficient number of voters who believe that invading a country under false pretenses and without an exit strategy falls under the category of "the president is only human.""

Think about it, Cloudy. Using dead soldiers to try to save live ones, versus using live soldiers for reasons that are contradicted every time there's a White House press conference...Aren't you the brave one, to stand up to someone at a message board, when you wouldn't dream of confronting your elected officials.

They say we get the government we deserve. The truth is, I get the government you deserve, and so do our soldiers.

 

[cloudy]

Aren't you the brave one, to stand up to someone at a message board, when you wouldn't dream of confronting your elected officials.

How the hell do you know? You know nothing about me.....just like I know nothing about you.

Is there anyway at all you can discuss something without insulting someone who believes differently than you?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

When all one has to do to be called a Bush-basher is to publish something so indisputable as the photos and names of fallen soldiers without any subtext or explicit political message and still everyone knows what it means, it should tell you something. It should mean something.

Looking away, ignoring those dead in defense of your flag, is a cowardice. No rhetoric can change that.

We already know that Dick Cheney and Ahmad Chalabi and Donald Rumsfeld and George W. Bush choose to look away. That's fact.