Thinking internationally

[KillerMuffin]

Despite Svenskaflicka's and subjoe's and few others presence around here, when I think of the reader, I think "American". It's natural, I suppose, I am American and that's the dialect my mind settles comfortably into when I'm off in the midst of creation.

But later, when the editing comes in, how internationally do you think?

I'm reminded of this because of a very literate and helpful English gentleman once critiqued a story of mine. An old one involved over-the-road trucking with the big 18-wheelers.

He told me that the story was unbelievable because the lorry drivers get to their destinations, unload, and get a motel room if they can't go home. They don't sleep in the seat of their truck. I had to furnish a website before he could really understand what I meant. He believed me, but it didn't really register. Ya know?

It never once occurred to me that someone may have never actually seen the 18-wheelers that are so common here.

There are so many things that I say every day, regional colloquialisms, slang, points of reference, etc. that's unique to my region and I think nothing of writing with them. Some can be puzzled out through context, but the fact that an international reader might hit one and have to figure it out, well, that bumps them out of the flow of the story.

Since then, on the embarrassingly rare occasion that I've edited my Lit work, I have removed things that I think are "very" American and, in particular, "very" hick. Wading through my accent in writing has got to be nigh on impossible.

So, what about you? How much thought do you give to the international reader? Do you do anything special? Or is it something that just doesn't seem to occur to you?

 

[Un-registered]

So, what about you? How much thought do you give to the international reader? Do you do anything special? Or is it something that just doesn't seem to occur to you?

I write and usually speak Queen's English, which is what you Americans call English English. I make no allowances for speakers of other English, because I tried that and got it wrong; the result was worse than leaving it in the original!

What I do try to avoid is national slang. I would never describe someone as a Page 3 Girl, for example. (The UK Sun newspaper always has a topless photo on page 3.) When an American story recently mentioned a "Hershey" I had to ask someone what that was, and I still don't know what Speedos are.

A related problem is Political Correctness. If I write a story of, say, the Wild West in the days when an arrow through your body was a normal hazard of the frontier, am I allowed to call the man who fired it a Red Indian, or should I call him a Native American? If I write about slaves in the Deep South before the American Civil War can I refer to them as "nigras"?

 

[Alex De Kok]

When writing I am conscious that the majority of my readers will most likely be from the US. With one very prominent exception I try to set my stories in an approximately US setting and except for A Date for the Prom, where I was reprimanded for my use of 'tuition' as the teaching, rather than the cost of the teaching (since amended - yet another example of 'Two nations divided by a common language'!) I think I have largely succeeded.

The exception? My foray into dialect, Aye pet, aal the way which is set firmly and unequivocally on my native Tyneside.

Alex

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I try to imagine an American setting for my stories, in order not to confuse my readers. After all, I guess most of them ARE Americans! My language is a mixture of Brittish and American English, and my sentence structure is Swedish.

The only story that had an actual Swede in it, though, is Room-Mating.
I'm planning to be a bit more Swedish this year, with original stories in Swedish, Swedes as main characters, and Swedish settings.

People won't recognize much, but those who have an open mind might learn something new.

 

[SexyChele]

I have to say that I write from a very American viewpoint, with an intended audience of Americans. I recently learned how wrong that conception was when I posted my audio stories, and received about half my feedback from people in the UK and Australia. (But, admittedly, I was flattered when they stated they liked my American accent)

I would like to write at least a couple of stories involving characters from other countries. Living where I do, it is not uncommon to meet and go out with people from various countries so why not include that facet in writing? My only problem is, while I know some of the ways in which, say, Aussies say things differently than Americans, I wonder if I could truly sound convincing. Guess I would have to find some one from the country I would like to write about to proofread and edit for me!

 

[MathGirl]

$#%&^^%*& Swedes

I'm planning to be a bit more Swedish this year, with original stories in Swedish, Swedes as main characters, and Swedish settings.

I love you, Svenska, but I'll be damned if I'm going to learn a new language just so I can read your stories.

Ps. Will the characters say things like, "Yumpin' Yimminy!"?

 

[Lovepotion69]

I would love to write something set in another country, but I'm not sure if I'd be able to make it believable. Hm, unless I just set it in Sweden or UK. haha

My English if probably more American English than British. I do admit to mixing at times, which is never good. I don't find it surprising we write according to what we know, but it's interesting that KM pointed out that others may not know what the heck you're talking about.

Svenska: A story in Swedish setting would be cool. Heaps of forrest, lakes and red houses?

/LP

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Re: $#%&^^%*& Swedes

I love you, Svenska, but I'll be damned if I'm going to learn a new language just so I can read your stories.

Ps. Will the characters say things like, "Yumpin' Yimminy!"?

And why not??? I learned English, didn't I???

And no, MG, they will not be quoting knocked-out boxers.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I would love to write something set in another country, but I'm not sure if I'd be able to make it believable. Hm, unless I just set it in Sweden or UK. haha

Svenska: A story in Swedish setting would be cool. Heaps of forrest, lakes and red houses?

/LP

Lovepotion69 - from now on, you'll just be called 69 - I read in some author's selfbiography once, that it's OK to write about something you know nothing about, and lie through your teeth to make it seem believable, as long as you do it convincingly and with self-assurance.

Midsummer, flower-picking in the meadows, dancing in a ring around the midsummer pole...

Making love in the forest, and a moose walk by...

 

[gauchecritic]

Being a stout and devout socialist and as big a Chauvinist (original meaning) as anyone (It's in the contract if you're Yorkshire) I concede nothing to audiences in the matter of internationalism.

On the other hand, if I create a character who is of another nationality to grace my work then I endevour to correct 'usage' in terms of accent, or even dialect.

I could rant on here about Americanisms invading the English language but I am heartily sick and tired of the arguement.

I have, when critiquing, urged otherwise English writing authors not to adopt Americanisms as they spoil the flow for me.

When writing I am speaking, not in my normal dialect (unless necessary) but in as close an approximation as I can come to "Received English".

I have to 'put up' with reading stories in pure American and often struggle through broken English stories because they reflect the authors tongue, so why can't they do the same for me?

In VC in chatrooms (not often these days) my English accent was often remarked upon as being 'sexy' and somewhat unique (broad Yorkshire) but I rarely used uniquely Yorkshire slang, I used an approximation of "Received" and that is how I write.

If you don't like it, then don't read it because I am, as you well know;

Gauche

 

[MathGirl]

Re: Re: $#%&^^%*& Swedes

And no, MG, they will not be quoting knocked-out boxers.

Darn. That's the only Swedish I know.

 

[karmadog]

I think concessions to an international audience should be minor or nonexistant. An author's voice is a product of his or her background.

For me any attempt to write like an or an 'Englishman', or God forbid (in my case, because it wouldn't be possible at all) a Swede, would ring false except for the most gifted of writers. Like William F. Buckley trying to speak like a rapper.

 

[MathGirl]

Like William F. Buckley trying to speak like a rapper.

Now that's an ugly picture.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Re: Re: Re: $#%&^^%*& Swedes

Darn. That's the only Swedish I know.

They might, however, be quoting knocked-out briefs.

 

[SexyChele]

Re: Re: $#%&^^%*& Swedes

And why not??? I learned English, didn't I???

Does this mean we can get some lessons in Swedish?

 

[jon.hayworth]

I am Cornish - which for people's information is a peninsular on the South West corner of England, some of whose population would prefer not to be a part of England.

I speak English English, but when I am writing for Website Publication I change my Spellchecker to English USA and try to write using a literary equivelant of Mid Atlantic.

I do this, because I am aware that Internationally very few people learn or speak my English. Compared to the potential readership for a story in the UK, the potential readership in the USA is enormous. An additional factor is most people who learn English as a foriegn language, learn English U.S.A. - I would be interested to know which English is on the Spellcheck setting of Svenskaflika and others who speak / write English as a second or whatever language.

jon

 

[Svenskaflicka]

An additional factor is most people who learn English as a foriegn language, learn English U.S.A. - I would be interested to know which English is on the Spellcheck setting of Svenskaflika and others who speak / write English as a second or whatever language.

Spellcheck???

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Re: Re: Re: $#%&^^%*& Swedes

Does this mean we can get some lessons in Swedish?

Naturligtvis. Första lektionen börjar nästa vecka!

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

gauchecritic & others,

My two Yorkshire terriers bark a lot, but I'm not sure if it's with a broad Yorkshire accent or not.

Would you tell me/us a little more about "Received English?" That's a new term to me.

Unregistered brought up the ticklish subject of what to call folks. His example being Native Americans vs. Indians. I've faced a similar problem with the novel I just finished. Set in the US South in 1968, one of the primary characters is black.

In the end, I decided to go with what I hoped would be least likely to throw the reader out of the story. The other characters use language appropriate to their type while his white friends and the omniscient narrator use "black." It wasn't in common usage at the time, but I judged it'd cause the least disruption.

When it comes to usage and dialect, I'm with gauchecritic when it comes to "internationalizing" the story. After all, Wm. Faulkner, Frank McCourt (Angela’s Ashes) and Helen Fielding (Bridget Jones Diary) did all right.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[KillerMuffin]

I've never had a problem reading UK standard spellings or formatting. However, there reside a great number of dim-witted American people who think that the only differences between UK and American English are accents and a few slang words. Perhaps there are a proportionately equal number of non-Americans who think the same thing.

I think that this is an international site without guidelines, so people should write in their own national style as it makes them comfortable. I do, think, though, that there are some places where you might want to maximize reader comprehension and places where you want your own regional flavor to come out.

I dunno.

I don't tone down my dialect, but I do try to make sure that things that I might take for granted as normal speech but are incomphrensible outside of hicksville are in the character's speech and not in the narrative. Unless the narrative is in first person, in which case it's all character's speech and tough titty.

 

[jon.hayworth]

I'm reminded of this because of a very literate and helpful English gentleman once critiqued a story of mine. An old one involved over-the-road trucking with the big 18-wheelers.

He told me that the story was unbelievable because the lorry drivers get to their destinations, unload, and get a motel room if they can't go home. They don't sleep in the seat of their truck. I had to furnish a website before he could really understand what I meant. He believed me, but it didn't really register. Ya know?

It never once occurred to me that someone may have never actually seen the 18-wheelers that are so common here.

I think KM that your English friend must go around with his eyes shut, or disdain trucks - trucks and truckers are not a part of Popular Culture over here.

It is also an affection of many members of the intelligentsia to pretend that they know nothing about anything related to manual labour, trucks, cars, fixing a fuse, - it is a form of class snobbery - "I have a little man who gets his hands dirty." To explain these attitudes would call for a full length book.

However Our biggest trucks are Twenty Two Wheelers, you call a Semi and we call an Artic - Three axle trailers 12 wheels and 2 rear axles on the Tractor Unit 8 wheels plus 2 front steering Wheels. These trucks have bunks behind the seats which is where the driver sleeps.

Again until recently we counted a truck not by its wheels but by its clusters of wheels eg a rigid with 4 axles was called an 8 wheeler whereas by your reckoning it would be 12 wheels (each doubled rear wheel we only counted as one wheel - confusing irrational - YES)

OK had my say,

jon

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I actually like American dialects. I remember reading this funny list of computer terms in redneck tongue:

LOG ON = put a log on the fire
LOG OFF = take a log out of the fire
BYTE = what them dang flies do

Etc...

 

[MathGirl]

Re: Re: Re: $#%&^^%*& Swedes

Does this mean we can get some lessons in Swedish?

NO! Oh, my God, now you've done it! We'll never hear the end of this now. Sob

 

[gauchecritic]

gauchecritic & others,

My two Yorkshire terriers bark a lot, but I'm not sure if it's with a broad Yorkshire accent or not.

Would you tell me/us a little more about "Received English?" That's a new term to me.

Rumple Foreskin

"Received English" as I understand it is what used to be called BBC English, that is to say a type of pronounciation and vocabulary most easily understood by the most people.

Previously it was that toffee nosed, 'high class' way of speaking, which was also unfortunately perceived as condescending and offensive.

The modern method is clear and understandable speech patterns, with or without regional accents (but not dialects) and again being understand by the vast majority of listeners.

Gauche

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

"Received English" as I understand it is what used to be called BBC English, that is to say a type of pronounciation and vocabulary most easily understood by the most people.

Makes sense to me. Many thanks.

RF