The Ultimate Feminist

[Dar~]

I have found myself wondering what my fellow litizens would say the ulitmate form of feminism is.
I truly feel that being a mother and birthing/nursing that child is the undisputable extent of true feminism. Who else, but a woman can give birth, who else can nurse?
I feel ill when I hear women tlak about feminism and wanting to not nurse, or not have children because that is "men's" way of holding us down.
Who created the framework for the minds that are in power today? Their mothers. Imagine, the changes we simple mothers could bring about, if only we exerted our considerable feminie power to teach our children and love our children.

 

[sophia jane]

I get what you're saying because, as a stay at home mom for the last nine years, I've felt the backlash of working feminists who have belittled what I'm doing. But those who treated me that way were a minority, and I don't think it's fair to judge the whole "feminist" movement as anti-mothering.
To me, feminism means choice. I have never felt that feminism meant that women were better or that men should be treated like shit. I personally feel like in the fight for equality, alot of women have given men unnecessary shit. It's not every man's fault that women still aren't completely equal. But I digress For me, feminism is about the ability to choose whatever path I want, to have equal opportunity and consideration on the path, to make the most of myself as a human being, not necessarily as a woman. Feminism, in my mind, ought to be about saying- gender is irrelevant.


(all that said, I know what you mean about nursing- it's a very powerful thing)

 

[3113]

I feel ill when I hear women tlak about feminism and wanting to not nurse, or not have children because that is "men's" way of holding us down.

I grant that there are women like this--but such women have wandered far from the root of true Feminism. The Feminist movement has always been in favor of mothers and children. And it is very wrong to think that it's otherwise. It is a common propaganda used against feminism to say that it does not care about women who are mothers.

The truth is, however, that the feminist moment fought, and fought very hard and very long to get maternity leave for women to have their babies, yet not lose their jobs. It use to be that bosses could just fire a woman who got preggers. Which meant that if the husband didn't have a job, and both were relying on the wife's earnings, wife, husband and baby to be were screwed.

Feminism stopped that from happening and worked to make businesses mother and child friendly so that some businesses now have daycare. Feminism has fought long and hard for the rights of families, for leave to take care of sick children, day care, etc.

And those who are really true feminists have also fought for the rights of men to get leave from work so they can care for a newborn or a sick child.

That said, as Sophia so wisely put it, Feminism is about choices. Any woman of a certain age and fertility can have a baby. I don't see what getting pregnant and having a kid says except that a woman has allowed biology to take its course. It does not make you a feminist to have a baby. What makes you a feminist is wanting to give women the right to have children if they choose, and giving them a world that values them as the caretakers of those children, rather than holding that as a valueless occupation, or penalizing them for it. IMO, true feminism does just that and has always done that.

But there are bitches and assholes and idiots in every movement, and it makes me sad that their obnoxious additude is the one you and so many others identify as the voice of feminism. As someone who attends a feminist convention every year, I can GUARANTEE you, true feminists think nothing of the kind.

 

[floweringquince]

I have found myself wondering what my fellow litizens would say the ulitmate form of feminism is.
I truly feel that being a mother and birthing/nursing that child is the undisputable extent of true feminism. Who else, but a woman can give birth, who else can nurse?
I feel ill when I hear women tlak about feminism and wanting to not nurse, or not have children because that is "men's" way of holding us down.

IMHO, feminism is not about any one thing like being a mother or birthing/nursing. (Not that that is any small thing, or indeed is just one thing.)

It's about each woman being free to choose for whether herself to become a mother and whether to nurse, whether to pursue a career, whether to do both, or whether to become a beachcomber in Bora Bora. Not because men think that that's what women should do, or because women think that that's what women should do; but because *she* thinks that that's what *she* should do.

(And I think men should have the same freedoms in regard to becoming fathers, or careerists, or both; or male beachcombers in Bora Bora.)


I'm sorry if this seems a bit rantish, but you've struck a hot button with me: it's the one right where my ability to get pregnant and have a baby would have been.

I was never medically capable of having children. (I'm not sure whether I would have wanted them or not; and if I'd really, really wanted kids, I would have adopted.) But if you define "womanhood" as "motherhood", then what does that make me?

(An empty, useless, uterus-less, husk of a hag?
... okay, sorry, I am getting a bit of a rant on there...)

(But hell, while I'm at it -
If the anti-gay marriage people define the purpose of marriage as procreation, does that mean I can't ever get married?
Or merely that any marriage I entered into would be purposeless?)


Damn it, I like babies. And mothers. And nursing, and pregnancy. I think that those are all really wonderful things, among the greatest and most profound miracles and mysteries in a miraculous mysterious universe.

But they are not the only things, or even necessarily always the best things, for women or for men or for anyone.


- Quince, aka Mistress Rants-A-Lot

 

[kandie]

IMHO, feminism is not about any one thing like being a mother or birthing/nursing. (Not that that is any small thing, or indeed is just one thing.)

It's about each woman being free to choose for whether herself to become a mother and whether to nurse, whether to pursue a career, whether to do both, or whether to become a beachcomber in Bora Bora. Not because men think that that's what women should do, or because women think that that's what women should do; but because *she* thinks that that's what *she* should do.

Feminism to me is giving a woman the freedom of choice to make her life the best she knows if can be. It has nothing to do with being a mother or nursing babies. For me that feeling came from deep inside and it told me, that I have done the best that I can do. I became a mother, registered nurse, and now writer. I am woman, hear me roar............MEEEEOOOW!...LOL! I could not resist that. TTFN hugs.

 

[starrkers]

I have found myself wondering what my fellow litizens would say the ulitmate form of feminism is.
I truly feel that being a mother and birthing/nursing that child is the undisputable extent of true feminism. Who else, but a woman can give birth, who else can nurse?
I feel ill when I hear women tlak about feminism and wanting to not nurse, or not have children because that is "men's" way of holding us down.
Who created the framework for the minds that are in power today? Their mothers. Imagine, the changes we simple mothers could bring about, if only we exerted our considerable feminie power to teach our children and love our children.

I feel, sadly, feminism has been hijacked and used to belittle motherhood. And, as someone who chose to give up a paid career for motherhood, that irks me greatly. Motherhood is a career, a bloody important one: what could be more important than raising the next generation?
Do men try to hold down two fulltime careers at once? No. Why should women do it?
I will slink off now, before I really sink into rant mode, but steam threatens to start seeping from my ears at any minute.

 

[amicus]

well...if I may dabble just a tad here...

the ole amicus is purported to be the biggest anti-feminist/misognynist and, well lots more that would bore you, around these sites...

It is those strident, manly, emasculating women without an ounce of true feminity that truly tickle my pickle, let me tell you.

I love women, all of em, large and small. I like the college girls and the sassy professional women who know the right wines and the good steak houses and always get tickets to the plays and concerts, ah, those 'sweet city women', I love em so but they are usually only up to taking me for a night or so, once a month or so, for a while or so. And thas fine, I couldn't take much more than that of them either.

Then the working girl, and I love those too. Usually browsing for that 'perfect guy' and seemingly in no hurry to find him. It usually takes a few weeks or a month of off and on dinners and drinks, dances and drives and walks in the park before she is curious enough to find out if our parts match up in an appreciable manner. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't and sometimes it takes sometime to figure just how well the matching takes. So be it receptionist or waitress, school teacher or barmaid, such adventures are the stuff dreams are made of and, ahem, short stories, I might add.

Then of course, the single mom's seem to be everywhere. And I know and they know they are really looking for a dad for their kids...and we both understand and I don't pursue those unless there is the possibility of something real happening, otherwise, it would seem a lie or an unspoken truth, and I would not feel good about that.

Then there are the raunchy girls, the party girls, the bargirls, the nightclub hoppers and the publicity seekers, the 'one nighters', that can be fun but are always expensive, but they always offer compensation in return, so even that works too.

Then there are the fluffy cheerleader types, truly lovely wonderful, spontaneous, free as a bird...airheads, and I just love the hell out of them...for a while, then alack, alas, woe is me, the game shows and the soap operas and the sit coms find me taking long walks in the park and drinking too much.


I had three wives, only one of them worked outside the home and she was 10 years my junior and still in college and it didn't last long anyway.

The other two, and the eight children I filled their sweet little bellies with, stayed at home and kept a house and managed the business of life and got pregnant again. It was a good 20 years...but even that came to an end, eventually as time changes all things.

And so, yes, the changes in society that have brought about more equality for women is a good thing, mostly I think, not in all cases, but mostly.

But because women and only women can bear and nurse children, as the thread starter said, I think true total equality and indepence for women is a contradiction in terms. Bearing a child automatically brings 18 years legally of responsibility for that life and a woman true, 'indepence' is lost to that overriding responsibility of nurturing a child and thus, she is not free to choose from all the options men will always have because they do not and cannot bear and nurse a child.

And knowing this, the smart feminists use it to pass legislation that limits mens rights to be free and enhances the now 'dependent' female who is left with a child to raise...and therein, my friends, lies the rub.


amicus...

 

[matriarch]

.........For me, feminism is about the ability to choose whatever path I want, to have equal opportunity and consideration on the path, to make the most of myself as a human being, not necessarily as a woman. Feminism, in my mind, ought to be about saying- gender is irrelevant.

Well said, beautiful.
Well said.

*applause*

 

[matriarch]

I grant that there are women like this--but such women have wandered far from the root of true Feminism. The Feminist movement has always been in favor of mothers and children. And it is very wrong to think that it's otherwise. It is a common propaganda used against feminism to say that it does not care about women who are mothers.

The truth is, however, that the feminist moment fought, and fought very hard and very long to get maternity leave for women to have their babies, yet not lose their jobs. It use to be that bosses could just fire a woman who got preggers. Which meant that if the husband didn't have a job, and both were relying on the wife's earnings, wife, husband and baby to be were screwed.

Feminism stopped that from happening and worked to make businesses mother and child friendly so that some businesses now have daycare. Feminism has fought long and hard for the rights of families, for leave to take care of sick children, day care, etc.

And those who are really true feminists have also fought for the rights of men to get leave from work so they can care for a newborn or a sick child.

That said, as Sophia so wisely put it, Feminism is about choices. Any woman of a certain age and fertility can have a baby. I don't see what getting pregnant and having a kid says except that a woman has allowed biology to take its course. It does not make you a feminist to have a baby. What makes you a feminist is wanting to give women the right to have children if they choose, and giving them a world that values them as the caretakers of those children, rather than holding that as a valueless occupation, or penalizing them for it. IMO, true feminism does just that and has always done that.

But there are bitches and assholes and idiots in every movement, and it makes me sad that their obnoxious additude is the one you and so many others identify as the voice of feminism. As someone who attends a feminist convention every year, I can GUARANTEE you, true feminists think nothing of the kind.

Hear, hear.

 

[Dar~]

I wasn't meaning to say that women who don' thave children have no intrinsic value, only that as a mother, I find it empowering that I had a hand in something that could potentially change the face of our future.
I am sick to death of hearing that by choosing my children over my job that I am making a mistake and selling out. I have a job to augment my life with my children. I will always chose them.
I am a lesbian, that doesn't mean i have to hate straight people. I am a woman, that doesn't mean I need to hate men. people are people.
As a woman, I felt my calling to have children, and they are amazing. My point in the OP was that, mothers hold real power in the world. how they raise their young, is how the world will be in thirty years.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

For me, feminism is about the ability to choose whatever path I want, to have equal opportunity and consideration on the path, to make the most of myself as a human being, not necessarily as a woman. Feminism, in my mind, ought to be about saying- gender is irrelevant

That is, essentially, what third-wave feminism claims to be about...

I don't think they're quite there yet... *shrug*... when I see them taking on a woman's right to birth wherever she chooses, or to nurse her child wherever she chooses, then maybe... but so far they have focused their efforts on the rights of "working mothers." Which is different than "mothers" altogether.

Birth can be a very feminine expression... it isn't always. Raising a child can be a feminine expression... it isn't always.

It depends on the woman, and how much of the feminine she has embraced in her own life.

And while I think gender should be irrelevant, I don't believe that the archetypes of masculine and feminine should be diminished or tried to be made "the same" or "equal."

It reminds me of a woman who once argued against the "racial melting pot" theory... where we're all thrown in and melted down and all one... she said, we're more like a salad... mix it all together, and it still tastes great, but take out a tomato or a cucumber, and it's still a whole thing.

That's how I feel about masculine and feminine as well. They fit incredibly well together, but they ARE seperate things, complete in themselves.

 

[impressive]

*sigh*

Lots of good comments.

Feminism has become a negatively-slanted word for me because it has come to signify a militant anti-male movement.

Gender is not irrelevant. We're different. Rather than trying to flatten our landscape, we should be celebrating the mountains and valleys in addition to the plains.

Intellect, in my opinion, is one of the plains -- a level playing field. (Deal with it, ami. ) Creativity, compassion, and all of the characteristics -- both positive and negative -- that make us human are distributed equally across the population.

Child bearing is a mountain that a man cannot (yet) scale.

The valleys are carved by the rivers of culture.

 

[CharleyH]

I grant that there are women like this--but such women have wandered far from the root of true Feminism. The Feminist movement has always been in favor of mothers and children.

Early feminists wanted rights for women - particularly the vote ...the right to body after that and every decision after it. Feminists NEVER argue about family - only men do.

 

[CharleyH]

Actually - most people do not understand feminism. Let's define it first before any arguments.

 

[matriarch]

*sigh*

Lots of good comments.

Feminism has become a negatively-slanted word for me because it has come to signify a militant anti-male movement.

Gender is not irrelevant. We're different. Rather than trying to flatten our landscape, we should be celebrating the mountains and valleys in addition to the plains.

Intellect, in my opinion, is one of the plains -- a level playing field. (Deal with it, ami. ) Creativity, compassion, and all of the characteristics -- both positive and negative -- that make us human are distributed equally across the population.

Child bearing is a mountain that a man cannot (yet) scale.

The valleys are carved by the rivers of culture.

As always, eloquent, sympathetic, empathetic.
Well said, beautiful.

 

[CharleyH]

As always, eloquent, sympathetic, empathetic.
Well said, beautiful.

Thanks for the bump, Mat. I am not sure I agree with Imp at times, but I agree on the point of feminists as you quote: "Rather than trying to flatten our landscape, we should be celebrating the mountains and valleys in addition to the plains."

My ask is how? Theoretically or otherwise? Again, I am not certain people understand what feminism is.. and perhaps we should start there.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

My ask is how? Theoretically or otherwise? Again, I am not certain people understand what feminism is.. and perhaps we should start there.

and which wave of feminism are we talking about?

 

[impressive]

As always, eloquent, sympathetic, empathetic.
Well said, beautiful.

I should be a writer or sumphin, huh?

 

[CharleyH]

and which wave of feminism are we talking about?

The one where were we start at the beginning of it and relearn what it means to be a feminist?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Early feminists wanted rights for women - particularly the vote ...the right to body after that and every decision after it. Feminists NEVER argue about family - only men do.

Oh, they do, they do. Like every movement or philosophy, feminism is made up of people, and people have their own ideas. In the sixties and seventies, the idea that a woman didn't HAVE to get pregnant, didn't have to be married was so overwhelmingly new that most of us concentrated on that particular aspect. Making babies was already a given, that was what we were fighting against- the givens. In the eighties and nineties, though, the pendulum began to swing back.

The modern feminism movement is still pretty young. Forty years is a blip.

 

[CharleyH]

Oh, they do, they do. Like every movement or philosophy, feminism is made up of people, and people have their own ideas. In the sixties and seventies, the idea that a woman didn't HAVE to get pregnant, didn't have to be married was so overwhelmingly new that most of us concentrated on that particular aspect. Making babies was already a given, that was what we were fighting against- the givens. In the eighties and nineties, though, the pendulum began to swing back.

The modern feminism movement is still pretty young. Forty years is a blip.

I know - I know - Playing dumb ... So why are there feminist theories and not "manism" theories?

 

[Stella_Omega]

I know - I know - Playing dumb ... So why are there feminist theories and not "manism" theories?

Gee, teacher, I don't know- wanna chalk it up on the blackboard for us?

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Gee, teacher, I don't know- wanna chalk it up on the blackboard for us?

Yeah, Charley, you do that, while Stella takes me for a ride!

That's a damned HOT bike, girl!

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yeah, Charley, you do that, while Stella takes me for a ride!

That's a damned HOT bike, girl!

mmm... purrs like a Kittyn!

I've only ever seen one of these in person once, and it was behind ropes.

 

[CharleyH]

Yeah, Charley, you do that, while Stella takes me for a ride!

That's a damned HOT bike, girl!

You wouldn't even get my lingo - so ride baby - ride!