The true gift

[MissTaken]

I have given this a lot of thought lately.

Submission is a gift. However, that gift can be given in degrees.

For me, the true gift is trust. Not the trust it takes to scene with someone or spend some time mono a mono, but the sort of trust that comes from deep within.

Complete trust is never easily given and as we have seen, isn't necessarily given with submission.

When I trust not only with my body, but my mind and heart, unconditionally, then you have the true gift.

Any thoughts?

 

[bored1]

Unconditional trust is truly a gift. To achieve that level of trust takes time and work, it is unfortunate that something that takes so long to achieve can be discarded in the blink of an eye. Never to be regained.

 

[zipman]

I have given this a lot of thought lately.

Submission is a gift. However, that gift can be given in degrees.

For me, the true gift is trust. Not the trust it takes to scene with someone or spend some time mono a mono, but the sort of trust that comes from deep within.

Complete trust is never easily given and as we have seen, isn't necessarily given with submission.

When I trust not only with my body, but my mind and heart, unconditionally, then you have the true gift.

Any thoughts?

I see where you're going with this, but I have to disagree. Time and time again we hear that trust has to be earned. Therefore, it is not a freely given "gift" but rather, a repayment of sorts that the sub gives to their Dom/me based on what they have received.

Many people trust me, but only one submits to me. I still say submission is the real gift.

 

[MissTaken]

Okay, personal experience and the motivation for the discussion....

I have submitted previously, that has been established. I trusted the Dom (s) I submitted to. I trusted them to keep me safe, to appreciate me as an individual and submissive as well as to be there when I came to

In order to submit , long term, I believe we may agree, zipster. I would suggest that by nature of submission, teh degree of trust may vary and that that ultimate gift of submission combined with the depth of trust I am referring to is the real gift.

Hmmm have I waffled a bit?

 

[zipman]

Okay, personal experience and the motivation for the discussion....

I have submitted previously, that has been established. I trusted the Dom (s) I submitted to. I trusted them to keep me safe, to appreciate me as an individual and submissive as well as to be there when I came to

In order to submit , long term, I believe we may agree, zipster. I would suggest that by nature of submission, teh degree of trust may vary and that that ultimate gift of submission combined with the depth of trust I am referring to is the real gift.

Hmmm have I waffled a bit?

Yes you have, and that's okay. So it's the depth of submission that you determine to be the gift. I think there needs to be a level of understanding about what that depth of submission means.

Let's say a new sub submits totally to a new Dom. Complete and utter submission, but she doesn't understand what that means or why it's important. Then I would say it probably is not a gift, as she doesn't comprehend what she is giving.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Piggybacking (again)

Let's say a new sub submits totally to a new Dom. Complete and utter submission, but she doesn't understand what that means or why it's important. Then I would say it probably is not a gift, as she doesn't comprehend what she is giving.

That is why I believe that in the beginning the relationship needs room to grow and evolve. A written or verbal contract that details the process, and the ability to edit it as the need arises has a two fold effect.

1) It forces both the dominant and submissive to discuss the level of submission expected and desired
2) It serves as a teaching tool on the d/s process/relationship itself.

Later in the relationship both can read it and took back and hopefully see progress...an expansion of limits and expectations.
Both parties can look and it and feel pride.

Ebony

 

[Lancecastor]

I think that there sometimes can be a confusion in the crossover of concepts between "growing a relationship" type principles as related to being a Couple, and those of being in a D/s relationship, which doesn't have to be about Couple-ing.

Is that perhaps where the waffle batter is being mixed, MissT?

Lance

 

[MissTaken]

I think that there sometimes can be a confusion in the crossover of concepts between "growing a relationship" type principles as related to being a Couple, and those of being in a D/s relationship, which doesn't have to be about Couple-ing.

Is that perhaps where the waffle batter is being mixed, MissT?

Lance

Yes, Lance!

You put it much better than I did.

 

[Caitlynne]

I have given this a lot of thought lately.

Submission is a gift. However, that gift can be given in degrees.

For me, the true gift is trust. Not the trust it takes to scene with someone or spend some time mono a mono, but the sort of trust that comes from deep within.

Complete trust is never easily given and as we have seen, isn't necessarily given with submission.

When I trust not only with my body, but my mind and heart, unconditionally, then you have the true gift.

Any thoughts?

Newbie here on Lit, although I have lurked for a long time (close to 6 months)....... and BTW I have learned so much from each and every one of you......

I am an emerging sub and quite frankly have been more in a learning mode and I have not posted --only observed......

But on this topic I had something to say.......

Unconditional trust is a gift........... But many times it is used as a bargin........ "I do this.......now you do that"............. a bargining tool that is fact manipulates....... This is not the nature of a gift...... A gift is given on the assumption that the receiver can in fact do whatever he/she pleases with it........ if it is not so, then it is a manipulation!!!

And it is this fact alone that is the source of much misunderstanding in these matters......... because those that give do so in order to obligate the receiver.

That's it--short and sweet and to the point........

~ Cait

 

[MissTaken]

wow

Excellent post, Cait.

Yes, whether it is trust you are giving or submission, a gift is to be used as the reciever sees fit.

Hmm that sheds some light on these old eyes!

 

[Richard49]

Trust? Submission?

Trust .. true trust must be earned ...
It takes time and experences with the other person(s)

it can be lost almost instantly

Submission is "given" as result of that trust

 

[TantaLiza]

I read this and needed to post...

I really don't know whether this is a bad or good thing....I've always given trust immediately to whomever I get to know... basically give them the benefit of the doubt....UNTIL they give me a reason not to....I personally think it starts things out on a good note....admittedly, I've been burned a few times but I still feel it's a decent way to be....JMHO

Maybe I'm just naive in that way....

Liza

 

[Caitlynne]

Re: wow

Excellent post, Cait.

Yes, whether it is trust you are giving or submission, a gift is to be used as the reciever sees fit.

Hmm that sheds some light on these old eyes!

Thank you, I'm glad it brought a new light to this topic. It's hard to remember that a gift is unconditional by definition. If it isn't then it is a bargin -- a tit-for-tat if you will.

Very nice meeting you, I've read your comments for several months and have found them to echo many of my own thoughts.

~ Cait

 

[Richard49]

Trust should never be given away like a street whore

 

[TantaLiza]

Not sure who the above post was referring to so I'm not going to take offense....

To explain further...I have to get to know someone thru talk and being around them....I'm a pretty good judge of character so if I get bad vibes, then the trust isn't fully given....in the same right, it's not an earn situation....no tit for tat thing.....I just don't want to come off as a non-trusting bitch from the get-go....clarification finished....


Liza

 

[Richard49]

Trust with a little thing
see what happens
if trust is honored
then trust with a little more
etc.

The two most valuable things one has is
1) there word
(which can be effected by what others do)
2) there trust
(If I trust you ... I am lableing you an honorable person)

 

[SkyBluAngelEyes]

Re: Trust? Submission?

Trust .. true trust must be earned ...
It takes time and experences with the other person(s)

it can be lost almost instantly

Submission is "given" as result of that trust

I agree with Richard here. Submission is given because you trust.

 

[chandelle]

Trust

Trust is not a gift. It must be earned by the recipient. And, if broken, never to be given to that person again, ever.

 

[Richard49]

Re: Trust

Trust is not a gift. It must be earned by the recipient. And, if broken, never to be given to that person again, ever.

I do believe trust can be reearned
at lest in some situations

The hardest person to trust when someone
breaks trust with us
is learning to trust ourselves again

 

[TantaLiza]

Re: Re: Trust

The hardest person to trust when someone
breaks trust with us
is learning to trust ourselves again

Amen!! It's taken me a while to re-learn from my experience yet I still want to give the benefit of the doubt...guess it's becuase I want to be trusted....*sigh*

 

[MissTaken]

Re: Re: Trust

I do believe trust can be reearned
at lest in some situations

The hardest person to trust when someone
breaks trust with us
is learning to trust ourselves again

Yes, trusting one's self can be the most difficult piece of the puzzle.

I know I can be filled with self doubt and specifically, don't trust my judgement in terms of relationships.

However, as someone just said in a pm, "You can't give up on people."

Gotta keep trying.

Even so, I do believe that trust isn't necessarily earned. For me, it comes naturally. Then, the depth of the trust I am placing in someone special at this point in time, is frightening. I have never done so before.

 

[artful]

A few more words,...

...on the topics of TRUST and SUBMISSION. If a pet is injured, you may take them to a vet,...dependent upon many factors, you will either submit your pet to the vet for proper treatment,...or not.

If you do,...you MAY change your mind later, due to the service, and/or treatment of your pet, (by him or her).

Initially,...you gave the vet your TRUST,...due to HOW he performs,...you may leave it with him/her,...or take it back. Trust on *specific* issues can be freely given,...and quite easily done.

Blanket trust, (defined as trusting in all things), is a rarity,...but it *does* happen,...it *can* happen.

Some people *need*,...to give a blanket trust,... others do not. It's one thing to trust someone to tie you up,...it's totally another thing, to give them access to all your financial means.

Can it be gifted? Yes! Can it be earned? Yes! It *both* cases, once your trust has been betrayed by someone,...that someone can *never* earn it back. One would always be suspicious,...even if they were to never betray your trust again.

It's the old,..."you can forgive but never forget" syndrome,...it's a universal law,...and it always works.

(JMHO),...but it's mine,...and I own it.

 

[MissTaken]

I don't agree

with those saying that trust can't be rebuilt or reearned.

There are times that circumstances destroy trust or relationships that are worthy of second attempts. A breakdown in communication my set a series of events into play that ruin the trust that existed between two people. Then, I would submit that fixing the original problem, communication, gives that couple the wherewithall to move forward toward a trusting relationship.

Furthermore, there are times when teh issues involving the destruction of trust actually bring two people closer when they have successfully dealt with them.

Then, again, I am too nice, too kind and too understaning?

 

[lark sparrow]

I've enjoyed watching/reading this thread

I tend to stay away from the term "gift" in regards to my submission, and trust as well, when I think about it. It's interesting and enlightening to see how others view this phrase.

I agree with you Miss Taken, on trust being able to be rebuilt. Particularly in the case of a miscommunication or lack of communication that leads to misunderstanding, and at least the feeling or fear of a breach of trust.

And that was a really insightful point, Richard - finding that you've misjudged someone you've placed your trust in can cause a very painful and confusing mistrust of your own instincts.

 

[Caitlynne]

This topic has certainly produced some interesting comments; I noticed one thing that I thought might help clarify something that appears to keep coming up.

There is a difference between the “making of a gift” and the circumstances under which it is done………. How one achieves the requisite ‘trust’ in order to indeed make that ‘gift of submission’ is as individual as every fingerprint.

Most people have a list of sorts, (even if that list is an unconscious or sub-conscious one)… Issues of trust are broken down……. Into accessible elements… It can be as simple as the sound of a voice that can produce the willingness to trust or it can be as complicated and multifaceted as any negotiation between two people/groups/nations. It all depends on the individual’s internal needs and the evidence before them that they can construe as being worthy of ‘trusting’. Under most circumstances the individual is always asking him/herself “What do I need here in this situation in order to trust?” and vice versa “What in this situation makes me NOT trust?”

But once that trust has been achieved. (and of course the level of trust would depend on the individual and his/her criteria) the ‘gift’ is then given…….. And the ‘gift’ to be considered a gift at all, must be unconditional –

BUT inherent in that gift is the sometimes mistaken belief that it (the gift) is accepted unconditionally, which may or may not be true. And it is here that trust enters into the equation, regardless of how well anyone has made his or her choice to trust, there is an element of transference—

The real truth is that the circumstances we use to determine how we trust as individuals may or may not be valid in determining if the other person can really be trusted… Time and behavior are all that can attest to that. BUT the person we can always trust if we but take the time to ‘meet and greet’ them is ourselves. We can trust ourselves long before we can truly trust another, and it is in this trust that we find the courage to take the risks of trusting others…

The truth is we can never really trust another as much as we can trust ourselves.. it is what we strive for, it is what we hunger for.. but it is one of the most difficult things to really achieve—But it is made much easier when we can rely on our own instincts and observations…… and it is in the manner that we can learn to take the risk to trust another…….

Just a few observations in life that I thought might add something to this discussion..

~ Cait