The state as an organ of class domination

[REDWAVE]

"The state is the product and the manifestation of the irreconcilability of class antagonisms."-- Lenin, "State and Revolution."


In more normal times, the capitalist state maintains a pretense of "neutrality" between labor and management, rich and poor. Since Bush and his gang of thugs stole power, however, the class nature of the state has become glaringly apparent. His main priority has been tax cuts for the rich, while slashing spending for social programs which benefit ordinary working people. After Sept. 11, airlines were bailed out to the tune of $15 billion, while they were laying off thousands of employees, who got nothing. During the anthrax scare, the big shots in Congress and the media got flooded with Cipro immediately, while lowly mailroom workers weren't even tested-- until some of them DIED from anthrax.

The state's assault on labor unions, the main institution of worker's power, has intensified. Bush colluded and conspired with maritime employers to squash the longshore union with the slave labor Taft-Hartley Act, even though the employers had locked out the workers in the first place. And the Democrats, the "friends of labor," uttered hardly a peep of protest. The AFL-CIO bureaucrats also colluded to isolate and help defeat the longshoremen. Now billionaire NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg is threatening to invoke New York's anti-union Taylor Act against the impending public transit worker's strike.

The recent Homeland Security law was loaded with goodies for Bush's big business cronies, yet Congress did NOT vote for even a lousy extension of unemployment benefits. Essentially, Bush and Congress both told the hundreds of thousands of jobless workers who face a cutoff of benefits Dec. 28 (right around Xmas-- nice Scrooge-like touch) to eat shit and die.

The capitalist state is an organ of domination of the poor, and the working class generally, by the rich. The U.S. (and all capitalist so-called "democracies") is NOT a democracy, but a plutocracy-- the rule of the rich.

(And yes-- I realize some people will open this thread just because it has the words "organ" and "domination" in the title, and they think it's about sex.)

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

I have an organ and could be persuaded to engage in domination.

You say they have classes for this?

 

[REDWAVE]

Yes

Yes, they do, RCA. I think they're over on the BDSM board.

 

[Worm]

The people on unemployment already received an extension. Maybe I'd be willing to give them another if they said "thank you" since I am forking out the cash to them, but instead people like you act like it is something that is owed to them.

The top 50% of wage earners pay 96% of all income taxes..it seems to me it is the other way around. The poor rule the rich.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Are you reading off a teleprompter, Red?

 

[REDWAVE]

The ghosts of Lenin and Trotsky stand behind me and guide me, through the night in the fight with the right . . .

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Redwave if I take the time to civily point by point reply will you read it and give it consideration or will it be ignored?

 

[REDWAVE]

Hey, Todd

Thanks for stopping by, Ex Virgin Man. I sure will.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

The ghosts of Lenin and Trotsky stand behind me and guide me, through the night in the fight with the right . . .

Wait a second. I thought communists were also atheists. The whole "religion is the opiate of the masses" thing.

Or were you just speaking metaphorically?

 

[REDWAVE]

RCA

Metaphorically, flippantly, parodically . . . you name it. Great av, BTW. Bugs Bunny is one of my favorite cartoon characters. "What's up, Doc?"

Aren't you late for that class on the BDSM board-- you know, the one about dominating people with your organ?

 

[REDWAVE]

Uh oh!

O, no-- it's taking Todd so long to prepare his point by point reply that I'm afraid he's going to produce a fuckin' tome, hundreds of pages long. (I remember his theological tracts.) Todd, if it's too darned long, I'm NOT going to read it all-- just read the first part and skim and scroll over the rest.

So take a page from me, will you? Keep it short enough where people don't die of boredom reading it, OK?

 

[REDWAVE]

O God, I just know Todd is writing some huge tome, tracing the entire rise and fall of Western civilization!

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

In more normal times, the capitalist state maintains a pretense of "neutrality" between labor and management, rich and poor. Since Bush and his gang of thugs stole power, however, the class nature of the state has become glaringly apparent. His main priority has been tax cuts for the rich,

As bad as tax cuts to the rich sound, cause supposedly they have more money and can afford it anyways, tax cuts to the rich are a semi good thing, not as good as complete tax cuts to all and a flat consumption on everything for everybody rich and poor.

The rich are rich not because it was given to them, the majority of rich became rich by working for it. study the worlds richest 500 yearly list, its not a stagnant list of the smae names, it changes yearly as does wealth by good and bad decision choices.

Not tax cutting the rich will simply mean a loss of that capital put back in the pot, rich, by fact of being rich can simply take themselves and thier money somewhere else.

And as stated most rich, yeah I know not all but a good 75-85% got thier through hard work and good decision making, currently only 10% of the population are paying the taxes of 80% of the populous.

If you raise taxes, and the person simply takes thier money else where to spend it what do you gain? nothing.

A simply process as studied in business courses of high school level dictate that if you have a product and you want to make money from it you don't charge the highest price you can get away with and only sell a few, but you lower the price to where the majority are willing to pay. yes your individual profit per item will be less but your net product profit will be more because your base is larger.

while slashing spending for social programs which benefit ordinary working people.

No where in any declaration of independance or constitution are social programs mandated or expected to be provided by the government or the people. Social programs are tool to produce dependance.

Allow me to illustrate with my apples again

I am the only one who has apples in the world, pretend apples are highly addictive, once you have one you can't live with out them. i take it upon my self one day to offer redwave an apple, redwave, goes, cool free food, and chows down on the apple.

the next day redwave is working in his house and noe the craving for another apple hits him, it hits him bad, he can't even hold the paint brush to paint his wall. redwave comes to todd, hey todd you gots to give me another apple, i need one.

todd seeing redwaves need for that apples says, well redwave If i give you an apple can you sweep my kitchen floor. its only a small kitchen redwave readily agrees, todd gives an apple redwave sweeps the floor all is well. this goes on for a week.

after a month or so todd gives redwave two apples one day, redwave eats them both doubling his addiction and need for apples, now he is more dependant on todd for the apple.

the next say todd only gives red the one apple for the sweeping, redwaves states his need, todd adds mowing the lan to the deal redwave accepts.

see what happens here, the more todd provides redwave the more dependant redwave becomes on todd's benevolance to provide apples.

cheyenne comes along and has a cure for apple adediction and that you can eat apples without becoming addicting. and actually claims you can grow your own apples.

this scares and endangers todds control over redwave, so todd starts throwing up some propaganda that the cure is a hoax, and that she simply wants to take away redwaves apple supply and that he won't have anymore apples to eat, and thus his addiction will cripple him.

redwave gets scared so swupports todd, cause he knows a good thing and a guarenteed apple on his plate when he sees it, cheyennes anti apple ideas scares him as all he knows now is life with apples, he can't remember life before todd's apples.

Such is government social programs, our lazy nature latch unto them, and when someone thrreatens to take them away, we get scared cause we don't understand or remeber what is was like before the social program when we made out just fine, thus the government has created in us an artificial need for them.

After Sept. 11, airlines were bailed out to the tune of $15 billion, while they were laying off thousands of employees, who got nothing.

Again there is nothing documentaly wise that sates a government has to bail out any business, airlines included. And the nothing you claimed the employees got was a lot more than 0, just because they didn't get a retirement pacakage of 6 figures, which with taxing the rich is a good thing theory stated above by your anti bush tax cut for the rich scheeme, would have been taken away from them anyways. From all the documentation that I have been reading, over 90% of eligibal workers did get a 4 week settlement, which is wtwice as long as the workers normal 2 week settlement for being let go dictated by law.

looking at the airlines, why is United fileing banckruptcy while Delta in the same condition still going. its the dependancy issue.

Uniteds work force is majority union workers, who wouldn't take a temporal wage decrease, which would have been a flat percentage across the board for all, until the company could get stable again. where as deltas employees were willing to take that risk and accepted a temporal wage decrease flat across the board.

During the anthrax scare, the big shots in Congress and the media got flooded with Cipro immediately, while lowly mailroom workers weren't even tested-- until some of them DIED from anthrax.

Yes I agree this is a sad that people had to die, but when you have a dependance upon big governement you have to take care of big government first, if your governemnt is wiped out what chance if any do you have to survive, sensible precautions are to protect the most important until you find out what is going on then once you have it figured out of what is going on and have things under control you fan out the base of getting everyone else taken care of.

the sad thing about the whole matter is sometimes the engines and wheels of figuring things out move much to slow and poeple die while they wait. I do give you that one that it is a sad matter that innocent postal workers had to die, before all was fully known.

the only consulation that can be offered or taken is the fact that more postal workers survived that were in contact with anthrax than died from it.

The state's assault on labor unions, the main institution of worker's power, has intensified. Bush colluded and conspired with maritime employers to squash the longshore union with the slave labor Taft-Hartley Act, even though the employers had locked out the workers in the first place. And the Democrats, the "friends of labor," uttered hardly a peep of protest. The AFL-CIO bureaucrats also colluded to isolate and help defeat the longshoremen. Now billionaire NYC mayor Michael Bloomberg is threatening to invoke New York's anti-union Taylor Act against the impending public transit worker's strike.

I agree with shrubs decisions to shut down the labour strike of the shoreman and port workers, and i don't agree with a whole hell of a lot shrub does.

you have posted before in other threads about the down turn in the economy and how bad things are getting.

one question answer this hnestly to yourself, if the longshoremen are striking, domestic product is sitting on the docks and inports are sitting on the ocean, niether doing anything, how is that going to help the economy.

As I see it the only things product sitting on a dock or on the ocean can do for the economy is plunge it even deeper in to problems.

product needs to be moving in order for forit to postively affect the economy

The recent Homeland Security law was loaded with goodies for Bush's big business cronies, yet Congress did NOT vote for even a lousy extension of unemployment benefits. Essentially, Bush and Congress both told the hundreds of thousands of jobless workers who face a cutoff of benefits Dec. 28 (right around Xmas-- nice Scrooge-like touch) to eat shit and die.

I won't comment on this because I have only have the material i have on this read

The capitalist state is an organ of domination of the poor, and the working class generally, by the rich. The U.S. (and all capitalist so-called "democracies") is NOT a democracy, but a plutocracy-- the rule of the rich.

The poor as stated in my lentghy point one commentary have been dominated by thier oen lazyiness, choice, and choosing, they created a dependance for themselve on someone else, hoping that the someone else would always be there for them.

The poor have cooked for themselves thier own pot of stew and now that they have tasted it and found out it has too much salt and water and not enough substance, they are blaming those who they have empoered to rule over them.

(And yes-- I realize some people will open this thread just because it has the words "organ" and "domination" in the title, and they think it's about sex.)

 

[REDWAVE]

Well, a short tome, at least!

OK, Todd, there you've stated your point of view.

I hope you don't expect an answer any time soon. I will get around to reading all that and responding to it eventually, but don't hold your breath!

 

[Texan]

"
The recent Homeland Security law was loaded with goodies for Bush's big business cronies, yet Congress did NOT vote for even a lousy extension of unemployment benefits. Essentially, Bush and Congress both told the hundreds of thousands of jobless workers who face a cutoff of benefits Dec. 28 (right around Xmas-- nice Scrooge-like touch) to eat shit and die.

Hell, REDWAVE, I figured you ran out of unemployment benefits about 18 months ago. You're just pissed that one of these days, you'll have to give the library back its computer and get a real job.

 

[teddybear4play]

Are you reading off a teleprompter, Red?

Something like that.

TB4p

 

[Don K Dyck]

Re: Well, a short tome, at least!

OK, Todd, there you've stated your point of view.

I hope you don't expect an answer any time soon. I will get around to reading all that and responding to it eventually, but don't hold your breath!

Now redwave, that is very naughty of you . . . after all, Todd is entitled to his extreme right wing opinions that the workers should be screwed to provide a life of luxury for the few indolent capitalists living of the fat of the tax system and government subsidies . . .

One day Todd, you will discover that people are poor for many more reasons than you have listed . . . generally they don't like it, and work to get into a better economic position . . . but somehow the indolent executives and the new managerial class are able to rip off the system because the law is written to benefit the rich . . . and disadvantage the poor . . . just like the tax system . . .

 

[REDWAVE]

Pretending to be Todd

Now, Don, you delerious ultra-leftist paranoid conspiracy freak, you've got it all wrong. The rich more than earn their mansions, yachts, and Bentleys through their tireless efforts to provide better products for all of us. On the other hand, the greedy poor, who just want to fuck off and post on Lit. all day, don't deserve the few shekels they receive. We need to cut their wages and increase productivity, damnit!

Remember-- Bill Gates is an altruist and a humanitarian. He just wants to provide better software for a cyberporn addicted world. His only thought is helping other people. Why, he even has a charitable foundation, don't you know! The fact that he became a billionaire in the process is purely a coincidental side effect.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

now where is that shaking my head in desperation emoticon, or the bashing my head against a brick wall emoticon.

Am I rich . . . i dunno does $6,350 + maybe another $200 for 2002 sound like big money to anyone?

Am I white . . . nope hienz 57 of the human race, outward appearancemay appear white, but there is native indian within 3 generations, french, english and african, and irish within 5 generations, I believe there is some asian and oreiental with in 15 generation or less as well, so hienz 57 is most appropriate.

Did i say all rich people were good people work:

tireless efforts to provide better products for all of us?

Did i say all poor people were:

greedy poor, who just want to fuck off and post on Lit. all day?

Did I ever use the like of Bil Gates as an example of a fine upstanding rich person?

~~~~~

I do agrree that the law system and the tax system is corrupt, but it is not corrupt because the rich made them, they are corrupt because they were allowed to be made corrupt. and that was done by people on both sides of the money fence.

I do do disagree with Flush Rumbah of the need to abolish minimum wage, but i also disagree that minimum wage needs to be on par with specialty fields.

I do agree that minimum wage laws need to be reevaluated and rewritten that low scruple employers cannot abuse it as they do now. { I also urge anyone in the employe of such an employer to write the workers boards, theier elected officials constantly, and accurately report what is going on.

Minimum wage was established for unskilled labour, and should only be paid for unskilled labour, but like i stated above there are those low scruple employers who pay thier skilled and unskilled labour all the same low price, they also are the same employers who's business do not survive when a crunch happens, and usually get caught with thier pants down.

Again I will reiterte high taxing the rich will not solve anything nor will untaxing the poor. The poor are who spend all they have and if they are not paying any tax then nothing is going into the gross product. and if the rich are taxed everythin on all they spend, they will soon stop spending, and once again there will still be no product added to the gross product. thus ending you in a null gross product.

REmvoing all tax hidden and other wise on everyone's income, and replacing with a simple flat tax across the board will increase gross product.

15% on all things purchased { http://www.fairtax.org} will settle and increase gross product while decrease the load on both the rich and poor.The poor who are currently paying 60% of thier income in prepaytaxeswould have an increase in net funds, and the rich who have more to spend and buy more would be putting more into the coffers with a consumption tax than an income tax, because there would be no way to avoid it.

So there you have a way for the poor to get richer the rich to keep what they have earned and an increase in fundage for the beloved social programs for those who just don't give a damn about trying.

Comments?

 

[REDWAVE]

Mellow out, dude!

Don't you have a sense of humor at all, Todd?

I'll give you a serious response later.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Re: Mellow out, dude!

Don't you have a sense of humor at all, Todd?

I'll give you a serious response later.

Sorry real life situations have somewhat taken away my humor.

I'll try a more less serious post in a bit.

i was just trrying to post thoughtfully on a serious topic without name calling, inuendo charging, just trying to deal with facts on a moderate level of thought.

ok so let me try humor then for you:

Did you hear about the four russians who walkedinto a bar?


The fourth one ducked.


yeah i know it was lame, what do you expect

 

[Don K Dyck]

Flat Tax is Good

<missing bit>

REmvoing all tax hidden and other wise on everyone's income, and replacing with a simple flat tax across the board will increase gross product.

15% on all things purchased { http://www.fairtax.org} will settle and increase gross product while decrease the load on both the rich and poor.The poor who are currently paying 60% of thier income in prepaytaxeswould have an increase in net funds, and the rich who have more to spend and buy more would be putting more into the coffers with a consumption tax than an income tax, because there would be no way to avoid it.

So there you have a way for the poor to get richer the rich to keep what they have earned and an increase in fundage for the beloved social programs for those who just don't give a damn about trying. Comments?

Hi Todd, the flat tax idea would work, but at 2 - 10%, otherwise tax remains a burden. In Oz, overseas investment is not taxed on exit . . . don't know why . . . but just 1% on money exiting Oz would create a huge poll of revenue from earnings within Oz . . .

Flat tax favours the poor when it is coupled with a reduction in business tax deductions and other business perks . . .

Sadly, there are poor people who give up and do nothing . . . but they are in the minority. You have said nothing about rich people who give up and do nothing . . . but I suppose that situation is retirement and managing investments.

 

[REDWAVE]

"Taxation is Theft"

I don't agree that the rich got rich because of their hard work and good decisions. As I said to you recently on another thread, the way to get rich is NOT by working hard yourself, but by profiting off the hard work of others. Also, a lot of people are rich because they were born into a wealthy family. They sure made a smart decision, to crawl out of a rich woman's vagina! By contrast, dumb ole me had to crawl out of a lower middle class woman's womb.

Do you follow current events at all? The debacles at Enron, Worldcom, Global Crossing, Tyco, etc. have revealed that a lot of people got rich (or richer) during the 1990's by cooking the books, inflating the value of corporate stock beyond on all reason, selling it to suckers, and then getting out early before the bubble collapsed. It was mostly the little guys who got caught holding the bag.

"Tax the rich!" is a popular slogan among reformist leftists. For tactical reasons, I use it sometimes myself, as what's called a transitional demand. But as a revolutionary Marxist, my slogan is not "Tax the rich!" but "Expropriate the expropriators!" Since the capitalist ruling class has expropriated the means of production, by extracting surplus value from the labor power of the workers, the working class, organized as the new ruling class, should take back what is rightfully theirs to begin with, and expropriate the means of production from the rich without any compensation whatsoever.

I'll get to the rest of your treatise later.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Re: Flat Tax is Good

Hi Todd, the flat tax idea would work, but at 2 - 10%, otherwise tax remains a burden. In Oz, overseas investment is not taxed on exit . . . don't know why . . . but just 1% on money exiting Oz would create a huge poll of revenue from earnings within Oz . . .

Flat tax favours the poor when it is coupled with a reduction in business tax deductions and other business perks . . .

Sadly, there are poor people who give up and do nothing . . . but they are in the minority. You have said nothing about rich people who give up and do nothing . . . but I suppose that situation is retirement and managing investments.

I agree 2-10% would be suffiecent to meet needs, but to convince people that falt tax would be fully able to pay the bills the number would have to stay around 15% in the beginning. Once people saw it work and how boutiful indeed it works they would soon be willing to lower it.

I have read about that situation in Oz about no oversea tax, i do agree 1% would be a boon to the economy, but unfortuantely i am not close enough to the situation to fully understand why unless studies have been done to show that the oversea investment leads to a greater oversea inport value to Oz to balance the cost burden.

Maybe you should call and write your elected officials and get more info on the why's and hows, and if they don't add up, start, the c0omplaint and petetion trail against it.

15% would still be a burden, but not near as much as the current 60% burden they are carring here in north america now.

I do know people who were reaching the barrier of hitting what is by tax rolls as being rich, and have given up because by crossing the barrier they were actually going to end up poorer up a level than at the level they were maintaining due to the tax burden.

I know that sounds facious but if the guy had of increased his salary 1000$ more a year he would have been 3000$ behind where he was at, so he continually turned down pay raises. sitting down and calculating it out in order for him to actually pocket 1000$ more a year cash he would have actually had to have a salary increase of 7000$ because of the tax burden.

 

[Texan]

Re: "Taxation is Theft"

But as a revolutionary Marxist, my slogan is not "Tax the rich!" but "Expropriate the expropriators!" Since the capitalist ruling class has expropriated the means of production, by extracting surplus value from the labor power of the workers, the working class, organized as the new ruling class, should take back what is rightfully theirs to begin with, and expropriate the means of production from the rich without any compensation whatsoever.

REDWAVE, you're delusional. The "workers" aren't going to rise up and "expropriate" anything. In this country, there are more "haves" than "have nots."

If anything, those that feel oppressively over-taxed may eventually "rise up" and do something about it. However, those who feel the greatest tax burden are those that are smart enough to do their protesting at the ballot box rather than on the street corner.

I can't be certain yet, but the most recent congressional elections might have been just a little bit of an "uprising."