The new deviant class

[rgraham666]

There was an interesting article in my morning paper today.

I can tell you from personal experience, here on the AH, how much what this article said resonated with me.

 

[cloudy]

Great article, Rob....and very sadly true.

 

[Antfarmer77]

I've always wondered what made tobacco so much worse than the other evils we so readily indulge in ?

 

[deathlynx]

The problem is that people have taken the concept of second hand smoke health issues too far...Because everyone is so afraid we are going to make them sick, give them cancer, then we obviously must be controlled...We cannot be allowed to smoke even in the privacy of our homes...*sigh*...

 

[Guest]

thanks for sharing rob. great article on a sad subject.

makes me wonder...when we will shift paradigms and one country will be for lepers (ie: smokers, fatties, ect.) and the others will be for the robotic sameness.
looking past this article and probably into the depths of a sick mind, i would say this is only a first step. after everyone quits smoking, gets skinny, stops drinking, quits drugs...what will take that place? what individual choice will we have? what will we look like and can i please place an order for the silver jumpsuit size zero?

 

[FallingToFly]

Jesus...

Oddly enough, people have been smoking for a long, long, long time. The smoked when Jesus was alive, and before then. Tobacco is nothing new, at all. And you know what? I honestly don't think that smoking is the end all be all of all cancerous evils.

My mother has never smoked a cigarette, done drugs, or had a drink in her life. She never had time for it, never had the inclination for it, and her faith is very strict on it.

My mother had colon cancer when I was 17. She was diagnosed with lupus four years later. And she has pleurisy.

She never smoked, never drank, never did drugs. And she's still going to die, and die in a long, slow, painful process. At a certain point, I'll probably be the one to open the pill bottles, leave them beside her bed, and kiss her goodbye before I leave. I owe her that, and a million times more.

Do you realize what you eat every day? All those healthy meals, all those energy-producing drinks, all that lovely "fresh" air you breathe? Do you realize what you put on your body, in your body, surround yourself with?

There are growth hormones in 90% of the meat on the market AND the supermarkets use a food dye to give it that healthy red color. Do you want to know what they feed chickens who lay those "healthy" eggs? Shall we discuss the chemical compositions of what they put on our fruit and vegetables? It kills BUGS- you know, those things that have survived things like meteor strikes and ice ages? Do you really think we're tougher than they are?

*snorts* I think I may be one of the only people who paid attention in environmental Science.. it's simple food chain logic. The top predator has the highest concentration of poison- one of those cases where the shit slides uphill, not down.

So, I'm going to sit right here on my porch and smoke my cigarette. Considering that I do my best to minimize all those other cancer causing chemicals that EVERYONE consumes in America- I think that it evens us out in the end.

I'll stop smoking when you stop eating.

 

[Antfarmer77]

Jesus...

Oddly enough, people have been smoking for a long, long, long time. The smoked when Jesus was alive, and before then. Tobacco is nothing new, at all. And you know what? I honestly don't think that smoking is the end all be all of all cancerous evils.

My mother has never smoked a cigarette, done drugs, or had a drink in her life. She never had time for it, never had the inclination for it, and her faith is very strict on it.

My mother had colon cancer when I was 17. She was diagnosed with lupus four years later. And she has pleurisy.

She never smoked, never drank, never did drugs. And she's still going to die, and die in a long, slow, painful process. At a certain point, I'll probably be the one to open the pill bottles, leave them beside her bed, and kiss her goodbye before I leave. I owe her that, and a million times more.

Do you realize what you eat every day? All those healthy meals, all those energy-producing drinks, all that lovely "fresh" air you breathe? Do you realize what you put on your body, in your body, surround yourself with?

There are growth hormones in 90% of the meat on the market AND the supermarkets use a food dye to give it that healthy red color. Do you want to know what they feed chickens who lay those "healthy" eggs? Shall we discuss the chemical compositions of what they put on our fruit and vegetables? It kills BUGS- you know, those things that have survived things like meteor strikes and ice ages? Do you really think we're tougher than they are?

*snorts* I think I may be one of the only people who paid attention in environmental Science.. it's simple food chain logic. The top predator has the highest concentration of poison- one of those cases where the shit slides uphill, not down.

So, I'm going to sit right here on my porch and smoke my cigarette. Considering that I do my best to minimize all those other cancer causing chemicals that EVERYONE consumes in America- I think that it evens us out in the end.

I'll stop smoking when you stop eating.

Amen sister!

 

[rgraham666]

Our madness about health is a symptom of one of our collective neurosis, in my opinion.

Simply put, death isn't part of our lives anymore.

Once it was. People we knew died. And they died where we could see it. We knew what it was and we accepted it.

But we're also part of the most powerful culture on Earth. We've been raised with that power and believe we can accomplish anything.

However we can't affect death. It comes when it comes and we can do very little to stop it. And this is a great blow to our pride.

So rather than accept that, we've hidden death away from our lives. It happens out of our sight and so doesn't damage our pride anymore.

But the sight of people 'killing themselves' also wounds our pride. And like death, we must push them away from us, remove them from our sight and our lives.

Sad.

 

[LadyCibelle]

Jesus...

Oddly enough, people have been smoking for a long, long, long time. The smoked when Jesus was alive, and before then. Tobacco is nothing new, at all. And you know what? I honestly don't think that smoking is the end all be all of all cancerous evils.

My mother has never smoked a cigarette, done drugs, or had a drink in her life. She never had time for it, never had the inclination for it, and her faith is very strict on it.

My mother had colon cancer when I was 17. She was diagnosed with lupus four years later. And she has pleurisy.

She never smoked, never drank, never did drugs. And she's still going to die, and die in a long, slow, painful process. At a certain point, I'll probably be the one to open the pill bottles, leave them beside her bed, and kiss her goodbye before I leave. I owe her that, and a million times more.

Do you realize what you eat every day? All those healthy meals, all those energy-producing drinks, all that lovely "fresh" air you breathe? Do you realize what you put on your body, in your body, surround yourself with?

There are growth hormones in 90% of the meat on the market AND the supermarkets use a food dye to give it that healthy red color. Do you want to know what they feed chickens who lay those "healthy" eggs? Shall we discuss the chemical compositions of what they put on our fruit and vegetables? It kills BUGS- you know, those things that have survived things like meteor strikes and ice ages? Do you really think we're tougher than they are?

*snorts* I think I may be one of the only people who paid attention in environmental Science.. it's simple food chain logic. The top predator has the highest concentration of poison- one of those cases where the shit slides uphill, not down.

So, I'm going to sit right here on my porch and smoke my cigarette. Considering that I do my best to minimize all those other cancer causing chemicals that EVERYONE consumes in America- I think that it evens us out in the end.

I'll stop smoking when you stop eating.

Double-Triple Amen from me Bugsy.

 

[Liar]

I'll stop smoking when you stop eating.

Kewl. I'll stop throwing food around me when you stop throwing smoke around you.

That's the only beef I have with smoking. You guys exhale. When I eat, I don't throw up on people around me. (Hopefully.) Smoke where you don't spread it around, and I have nothing to say about it.

Today I had to change seats on the bus, because a man sat down in front of me and stank. He probably lit up a cig at the bus stop and stomped it when the ride arrived, like so many do. Nausea kicked in in five seconds, runny eyes in ten, hissing pipes in twenty.

Everything causes disaster. Be out in the sun, get sick. Be indoors, get sick. Smoke, get sick. Eat a burger, get sick. Work out, get sick. Eat crop dusted food, get sick. Eat homegrown veggies, get sick. Most of the scare on Big Bad and Evil engineered food is marginal at best, and outweighed by the fact that there's a vide variety of food available for me. Might possibly give me cancer. But at least I won't get scurvy on the way to it.

But my point is, what I eat doesn't cause other people respiratory problems. Unless I chew down on the biggest, vilest garlic in the world.



But yeah, regarding the original article. Ya shouldn't excude people for doing something that's legal.

 

[Darkniciad]

Today I had to change seats on the bus, because a man sat down in front of me and stank. He probably lit up a cig at the bus stop and stomped it when the ride arrived, like so many do. Nausea kicked in in five seconds, runny eyes in ten, hissing pipes in twenty.

He wasn't smoking. Your condition was ( I assume ) caused by the odor.

It could have just as well been B.O., the rank cologne he bathed in immediately before leaving home, the stench of his fabric softener... you get the picture. There are people who can't tolerate any smell you can imagine.

You just said that you don't have a problem if they aren't blowing their smoke around, and then rant about someone who put a smoke out before getting on the bus (maybe, you never saw him smoking), thereby following your directions.

Soooo, where does that leave us? It's not exactly consistant

 

[MagicaPractica]

He wasn't smoking. Your condition was ( I assume ) caused by the odor.

It could have just as well been B.O., the rank cologne he bathed in immediately before leaving home, the stench of his fabric softener... you get the picture. There are people who can't tolerate any smell you can imagine.

You just said that you don't have a problem if they aren't blowing their smoke around, and then rant about someone who put a smoke out before getting on the bus (maybe, you never saw him smoking), thereby following your directions.

Soooo, where does that leave us? It's not exactly consistant

I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that people who finish a cigarette continue to expel toxins from their lungs for the next five to ten minutes. I love my father dearly and I'm looking for solutions but when he stays with me, he goes out and smokes then comes inside and I soon have an allergy attack. I don't say anything because I don't want him to feel bad but I'm in pain while he's here. This just started the last couple years. Before that I never had a problem. Even worked in a bar for a while. Is it possible it's crap they are putting in the cigarettes with the tobacco now? I have to wonder.

I didn't read the article but I'm not one who thinks people who smoke should be ostracized or excluded from anything or anything like that. But, man, physically being around people who are smoking or have recently done so does cause me physical pain.

 

[Liar]

He wasn't smoking. Your condition was ( I assume ) caused by the odor.

It could have just as well been B.O., the rank cologne he bathed in immediately before leaving home, the stench of his fabric softener... you get the picture. There are people who can't tolerate any smell you can imagine.

You just said that you don't have a problem if they aren't blowing their smoke around, and then rant about someone who put a smoke out before getting on the bus (maybe, you never saw him smoking), thereby following your directions.

Soooo, where does that leave us? It's not exactly consistant

How about a guy, sitting on the bus, covered in six months old mayonnaise? He is not throwing it at you, but hey.

 

[Darkniciad]

I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that people who finish a cigarette continue to expel toxins from their lungs for the next five to ten minutes. I love my father dearly and I'm looking for solutions but when he stays with me, he goes out and smokes then comes inside and I soon have an allergy attack. I don't say anything because I don't want him to feel bad but I'm in pain while he's here. This just started the last couple years. Before that I never had a problem. Even worked in a bar for a while. Is it possible it's crap they are putting in the cigarettes with the tobacco now? I have to wonder.

I didn't read the article but I'm not one who thinks people who smoke should be ostracized or excluded from anything or anything like that. But, man, physically being around people who are smoking or have recently done so does cause me physical pain.

I've never heard of of ( and can find nothing ) to support the ten minute after thing. It may be out there, but several minutes of searching using a dozen keyword combinations came up with zip.

As to your condition, more likely you have developed an allergy. Just as you can grow out of them, you can grow into them. My girlfriend developed new allergies during pregnancy that she still has now.

Most likely, it's the smell, and that goes back to my original point. For you, it's smoke. For the person sitting behind you on the bus, maybe it's your perfume. Some people can have an attack and die from being within ten feet of a latex baloon or a peanut.

We can't ban everything. At some point, people who have strong reactions to something have to take care to avoid them on their own. The people with the bad peanut and latex allergies know that all too well. Every day is a living nightmare for them, like having an assassin waiting for them everywhere they go.

How about a guy, sitting on the bus, covered in six months old mayonnaise? He is not throwing it at you, but hey.

Same thing. It's an offensive odor. I do what you did, I get up and move. That is your recourse when the smell of something offends you. Unless I've missed something, they have yet to go so far as to say that the lingering smell of smoke causes cancer. Therefore, it is just like any other stink.

 

[Aurora Black]

Slightly off-topic, but...

Peter Jennings died? When the hell did this happen?

 

[Darkniciad]

Peter Jennings died? When the hell did this happen?

Aug. 7, 2005

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=1015438

 

[Aurora Black]

Aug. 7, 2005

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=1015438

Shit. Thanks for the link.

 

[Liar]

Same thing. It's an offensive odor. I do what you did, I get up and move. That is your recourse when the smell of something offends you. Unless I've missed something, they have yet to go so far as to say that the lingering smell of smoke causes cancer. Therefore, it is just like any other stink.

Um. No. Didn't I make myself clear? You said it yourself in an earlier post even. It's an allergy, not an aquired distaste. It's not just an "offensice odor". I don't get insulted, I get physically ill.

Cigarette smoke, even the parts of it lingering in clothes and breath after a recently burned one, is endangering a fair amount of people's health. Including mine. On a bad day, and the wrong situation (stuck in an elevator comes to mind), I could get the whole breathing-through-a-straw asthmatic enchilada going. Just like stong perfume can do for many others.

Or peanuts for that matter. Although I've never heard of anyone actually being endangered by that short of direct contact or eating. But I'm sure there are extreme cases of that too.

No, not cancer. Second-hand smoke causing cancer has been thoroughly and scientifically debunked. But is that the only illness that counts? I don't get it.



And I repeat: How about a guy covered in six months old mayonnaise, sitting down next to you on the bus? Would you think, if it came to that, that he or you should change seats?

 

[deathlynx]

Um. No. Didn't I make myself clear? You said it yourself in an earlier post even. It's an allergy, not an aquired distaste. It's not just an "offensice odor". I don't get insulted, I get physically ill.

There are a number of people who this occurs to with any overpowering smell...Vomit as a prime example of a smell which induces nausia in a majority of people...Does that make people allergic to it? No, it simply means their body, or mind, cannot deal with the smell...

Cigarette smoke, even the parts of it lingering in clothes and breath after a recently burned one, is endangering a fair amount of people's health.

actually I'd like to see studyies done on the commonality of a number of various allergies, smoking included...If done right they can prove that smoking is indeed an allergy as opposed to simply a violent reaction (mental or physical)...
Also an in depth study would help us determine what all needs to be put on warning labels...Those that are carried by a certain percentage of the population being the most important...

Or peanuts for that matter. Although I've never heard of anyone actually being endangered by that short of direct contact or eating. But I'm sure there are extreme cases of that too.

I have...The more allergic someone is the worse their reaction...I knew someone who began to feel queezy just being near someone who had a PB&J sandwitch...If they shook hands with the person they would need to be hospitolized...ingestion would be nearly instantly fatal...Now that's an extreme case of it but it does occur...

No, not cancer. Second-hand smoke causing cancer has been thoroughly and scientifically debunked. But is that the only illness that counts? I don't get it.

It's the boogy-man of diseases, only surpassing AIDS due to the length of time we've known about it...It's also lethal while most allergies aren't unless ingested or otherwise contact related...

 

[JamesSD]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here real quick.

I've worked at several different companies, the majority of which had both smoking and non-smoking employees.

The smoking employees typically took at least one smoke break every 2 hours, sometimes more. These always lasted at least 10 minutes, and never were off the clock.

As an employer, I would look at two equal employees, smoking and non, and say that the non-smoker was more valuable.

Of course, the problem was largely that smokers were given a break priveledge that non-smokers were not. On one occasion on a particularly slow day I did tell my boss I was going to take a "non-smoke break". She looked at me funny, but told me to be back in 10 minutes, and I went outside to get some fresh air and drink a soda. It was nice.

I do think a better solution is for companies to have clear policies and enforce them. Someone who smokes a cigarette at lunch and one after work isn't really costing the company anything.

 

[R. Richard]

Of course, the problem was largely that smokers were given a break priveledge that non-smokers were not. On one occasion on a particularly slow day I did tell my boss I was going to take a "non-smoke break". She looked at me funny, but told me to be back in 10 minutes, and I went outside to get some fresh air and drink a soda. It was nice.

I do think a better solution is for companies to have clear policies and enforce them. Someone who smokes a cigarette at lunch and one after work isn't really costing the company anything.

I worked for a company that wanted to set up a "smoking room," that their employees who smoked could have some place to do so when the outside weather was nasty and/or raining. I pointed out that I did not smoke. However, if they were going to set up a smoking room, how about also setting up a "screwing room," for their emplyees who wanted to do that on company time. I emphasised that, catering to the vices of one group should mean also catering to the vices of other groups. I also tried to point out that more people screwed than smoked. I say "tried to point out." The discussion room emptied faster than a fire drill! [Just my luck that I happened to pick a whole room full of people who do not screw!]

 

[deathlynx]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here real quick.

Oooooh! A good debate...I love a good debate...

The smoking employees typically took at least one smoke break every 2 hours, sometimes more. These always lasted at least 10 minutes, and never were off the clock.

Well, by law companies are required (I'm talking non-agriculture here because I know the laws change and am not sure what ag laws are) to give two fifteen minute breaks and a half an hour lunch break for a standard 8 hour shift...And while I know lunch breaks can be required off the clock I've never worked anywhere where the breaks were...And I've worked some places where they skimped every way they could...
At one place I worked they even posted the regulations regarding the number and length of breaks required by law...It was entirely dependant on the length of scheduled workday not the number of hours worked (for example at 6 hours it was a single 15 minutes but 6:01 was a half an hour lunch break)...

As an employer, I would look at two equal employees, smoking and non, and say that the non-smoker was more valuable.

I recently quit from a retail position (got a better job! ) but there the smokers were generally better, especially at high pressure times like sale weeks...Why? all they had to do was go out the front door to smoke while the non-smokers wandered all the way out back...in addition the smokers smoked a cig then came back in (at about 5 minutes or so) while the non-smokers set their watches and took the full fifteen...
Now admitedly the smokers actually generally went out an additional time but that still only takes 11 minutes (30 seconds each break for travel time) to the non-smoker's 17 minutes (over a minute each way to and from the back of the store)...
Here I'm willing to suggest that providing a designated smoking section could actually promote more work out of the smokers than non...

I do think a better solution is for companies to have clear policies and enforce them. Someone who smokes a cigarette at lunch and one after work isn't really costing the company anything.

Not quite true...If they provide health and or life insurance for their employees they can probably get a much better rate overall if they can promise their employees aren't smokers...Now I know I'm killing my own point of view some but hey, it's a debate so I like to view all sides

 

[Liar]

There are a number of people who this occurs to with any overpowering smell...Vomit as a prime example of a smell which induces nausia in a majority of people...Does that make people allergic to it? No, it simply means their body, or mind, cannot deal with the smell...

Um. Again. Something else. Some people faint at the sight of blood too. Some people cringe at the sound of nails on a chalk board. Not physical reactions, but mental.

I actually think tobacco smoke smells nice. The nausea I felt was more of a 'here-we-go-again' emotional reaction to what comes next. Because I can only smell it for about ten seconds before my trachea tries to strangle me. Incidentally, I get the same reaction but lighter from a select few other fumes too. Some types of incense and to some extent diesel fumes, to name two. Got journal and meds. It's a pretty common condition, sensitive membranes or some sort.

Of course, the problem was largely that smokers were given a break priveledge that non-smokers were not. On one occasion on a particularly slow day I did tell my boss I was going to take a "non-smoke break". She looked at me funny, but told me to be back in 10 minutes, and I went outside to get some fresh air and drink a soda. It was nice.

When I was personell manager at my former job, I used to insist that everybody actually took a 10 minutes per hour break and got up from their desks. Smoke, get some water, get a breath of fresh air, stretch, shag a co-worker in the bathroom, I cared not what. Those that did this very soon began to be more effective during the time they actually sat down and worked. So even if they worked less time, they got more done, and were much less tired by the end of the day.

 

[TheEarl]

The militancy of some smokers does impress me. It's one of very few vices where the partaking of it directly affects non-partakers, even if that's just by making them feel ill.

I'm certainly not in favour of banning it (considering I'm in favour of legalising cannabis, that would be somewhat nonsensical), but it's also not something that I want near me. Granted, it's a fine line between my rights and theirs, but I think that smoking, in an enclosed public space, isn't acceptable, because it affects everyone in the near vicinity. I happen to like the smell of really strong incenses (because I have very little in the way of a sense of smell and it's fun to actually have something I can pick up), but I would try to restrain myself from sparking one up in an enclosed public space, because I don't want to force it on everyone around me.

Oh, and unfair discrimination, of any kind, is bad. Just thought I'd get that out of the way.

The Earl

 

[deathlynx]

Um. Again. Something else. Some people faint at the sight of blood too. Some people cringe at the sound of nails on a chalk board. Not physical reactions, but mental.

And nausia at certain smells can be too...Personally I get headaches and nausea from the smell of cigar smoke...I happen to know why, my dad used to smoke them in the van after every meal, often with the windows up (when it was cold...I'm a smoker but I still can't deal with Cigars...

Incidentally, I get the same reaction but lighter from a select few other fumes too. Some types of incense and to some extent diesel fumes, to name two. Got journal and meds. It's a pretty common condition, sensitive membranes or some sort.

Which implies to me that it's more a sinus condition than an alergy...Though I'm not a doctor and don't know the difference between the two...Regardless I'm not saying it isn't one...I'm simply saying that for many people it also could be psychological (as it is with me)...I like the smell of cigars but they still cause problems...so I avoid them...

Those that did this very soon began to be more effective during the time they actually sat down and worked. So even if they worked less time, they got more done, and were much less tired by the end of the day.

Very true...everyone needs breaks or productivity declines rapidly...Personally it's why I've always favored taking lunch breaks near the end of my shift...I start off at my most productive and can keep going on short breaks through most of the time...but can really go for a half hour break with a couple of hours left...