the 'n' word

[skitch]

Being from the south, I encounter racist remarks all day. First off, i'm a white, middle class American. Growing up in a public school i made friends with people of multiple races. I'm not a racist by any means and hate the fact that most of my family says 'nigger' Now to my question. In college, I had to read an essay about racism. And continuously in the class, the discussion was based around the word. But everyone was saying "the 'n' word" instead of the actual word. The word 'nigger' is slang for African Americans.....so isn't saying "the 'n' word" slang for the actually word....and should be considered as bad?

Personally, i can see how it is considered slang for it, and hate having to say the word or even saying the slang for it. I was just wondering what everyone thought.

*For the record, as if i haven't said it enough already, I HATE racism and anything surrounding it*

 

[*Eve*]

Actually the slang that African-American's use is "nigga", and although I think it sounds just as bad as the other more traditional word of nigger, there is a difference. Neither word should be used in my opinion but especially not used by any non black person who does not understand urban culture. I don't want to lecture because frankly it's rather tedious trying to explain the difference to non blacks. All you really need to know is that nigger is a derogatory remark created to degrade the black race, while "nigga" is a word used mostly in black hip hop culture, to express comraderie and or to identify a person.

 

[daniducci]

I actually just had a similar conversation regarding the NFL football player accused of referring to past black teammates as "niggers". I understand radio and television using the phrase "the n word" when reporting because some words just can't cross the airwaves outside of comedy and dramas. My concern was, outside of those venues, can we as a society talk about the use of the word without having to hide what the word is? Are we that childish of a people that to utter the word means that we are racist? Now I would never use the term "nigger" to refer to a person, but I should not be afraid to use the term to refer to itself.

Also, I have heard black individuals use the term "nigger" to refer to certain white individuals. They explained it in some way, but I don't remember their definition of "nigger". Also, "nigger" is only deragatory because it is taken by the listener as an insult when in reference to a black person. Originally, I think, it was simply a southern mispronunciation of the term "Negro", and meant the same as "Negro" or "black" or even our modern "African American". Southerners believing in the freedom of blacks and the rights of blacks would still use the term "nigger" because to them it just meant "black person". "Nigga," again just my understanding, is not a seperate word, but just a mispronunciation of the term "nigger."

That's just my take. I think it's childish to be as PC as we are, and racist to say one race can use a term but another race can't because then it means something else.

 

[*Eve*]

Although you may have gotten the historic origin of the word, I think if you really want to know what you're talking about you will re-educate yourself on those terms.

 

[daniducci]

It really doesn't add anything to a discussion (unless you just want to add anger) to tell someone they don't know what they're talking about. I know what I'm talking about. Now I may not know what either *Eve* or skitch were talking about, but I do know what I was talking about. It seems that we want to just make up new definitions for words when one group of people use that word. There is a similar case with the term "bitch" being used by that same urban culture. Now I don't know if anyone claims that "bitch" has a non-deragatory meaning when used by someone within urban culture, but I find it fascinating that our urban culture has that tendency to take terms accepted as deragatory and use them as a regular part of their cultural dialect. I don't know if other sub-cultures have done anything similar. Maybe it comes out of the anger we see instilled our urban culture. I also wonder if it comes from a subconscious feeling of low self worth which is inherent to cultures kept down by their society as our urban culture tends to be. Of course, the answer to both of those questions can not be known by even an expert since we do not yet truly understand sociology that well. So before I get accused of ignorance again, I would put forward that we are all ignorant about issues like this. Even those using the terminology don't understand the reason behind it. That's just the language they've grown to be use to.

 

[*Eve*]

So before I get accused of ignorance again, I would put forward that we are all ignorant about issues like this. Even those using the terminology don't understand the reason behind it. That's just the language they've grown to be use to.

Interesting that you don't want to be accused of ignorance but yet you go on an say that we are all ignorant of the issue. I would like to ask you and you don't have to answer, are you african-american by any chance?

I am not trying to start an argument with you but I do think that since skitch brought the subject up, I would like to discuss it. I think that too many people are scared to talk about it because they don't want to seem like a racist.

 

[Svedish_Chef]

Personally we have a more of I problem with calling Aboriginies Abo's but I think you call people what they accept.

However I hate PC and the N word is just as bad as saying nigger I mean the same thought is there just fucking say it!

Eve... I pre-apologise for anything that may be said furthermore.

Da chef

 

[Treat]

The 'N' word is not only racist, but a put down in many forms. With the word ending in 'er' it taks that form and that form only. When you hear it said or spoken it is used the majority of the time while talking about someone or their property. Which in that context is combined with an insult or personal attack. Now with the 'N' word ending in a simple 'a', it, as *Eve* so well put it shows friendship, comraderie, and respect. For example look at the following:

Ending in 'er' ..... Can you believe the nerve of that N'er' ?
Total disrespect and not a care in the world for the person saying it, or to whom it is directed. And that goes for it coming from both races.

Ending in 'a' ..... N'a' , i have to say that you were right and I was wrong.

Showing respect in a way most people cannot and will never understand.

Now if you look the word up in a dictionary, you will see that it refers to a person of any color, race, or creed that lacks self respect and respect for his/her peers and society.

I do not in anyway use the 'N' word, so that is whay you have not even seen me type it. Yes I am a white male, and many of my friends and people I interract with are Afican-American. And yes they ( a few close friends ) even refer to me as their N'a'. Does that bother me, you may ask? No, not at all. Does it turn heads when those unknowing of the relationship hear it? YES! But it also turns heads when my fiance' and I are in public and we happen to come across some of those in society who are color blind.

Basically, unless you have experienced society this way and raised in such, you cannot understand what is going on. And on the same token you are not expected to understand.

[Edited by Treat on 09-10-2000 at 05:11 PM]

 

[*Eve*]

Thank you Treat for getting my point.

 

[Treat]

Anytime *Eve* ! Sometimes it takes more than one person to say the same thing to get the same point across.

 

[daniducci]

Okay...one more post, then I've gotta stop cause It's become a one on one discussion and I read somewhere not to do that . Okay, first off, I wasn't saying we are all ignorant of the issue. I'm saying we are ignorant of the cause behind the issue. The forces that shape cultural mindsets and dialects are to subtle and complicated for our meager minds to grasp. Sociology has no facts, only theories, which is way it is considered a soft science (I think that terminology is correct). But ignorance is the nature of these topics. It's also what makes them fun to discuss, imo.

Also, it's not the accusation of ignorance that bothers me, necessarily. I know there are many things which I am ignorant of. That's life. Here's what bothered me about it. I love to debate about things. A good, intelligent argument in which all sides respond to opposition with opposing views and hopefully everyone comes away knowing more than they went in knowing. But nothing makes me more angry than when someone responds to an argument with a line like, "You don't know what you're talking about." Maybe you didn't mean it this way, but that statement allows you to discount anything I say without having to have an argument against it. It completely removes me from the discussion intellectually.

Now, hopefully, that explanation keeps us from breaking down into flaming. It's not cold enough yet for that. In answer to your question (bout time I got around to it, isn't it ;-)), no, I'm neither black nor am I urban. I'm basically a white country boy. Please don't use that to discount my views, though. Even us rednecks have the ability of critical thinking. Don't believe everything you see on Springer.

And I hope you don't think I was trying to squelch(sp?) the topic. Skitch seems to be saying that it should be as bad to say "the n word" as it is to say "nigger". My view is that, when speaking about a term, that term no longer has meaning within a sentence, and therefore, "nigger" is as meaningless as "the n word" (within that discussion). To not use the word "nigger" in that instance reminds me of attempts of parents to discuss sex with their children without using the terms "penis" and "vagina". We're adults, most of the time. We should be able to talk about things like this without having to worry about people thinking we're racist (see, we agree). Okay, I'm gonna go hide from this topic for a while until someone else chimes in with a viewpoint. Bye.

 

[daniducci]

Alright, other people posted on the topic. That means I can stick around a while longer!

 

[Earthmuffin]

I grew up in a multi-cultural area of the U.S. that being white OR black made you the minority. I have friends from all walks of life and ethnicities and have been advised that Nigger, AND "the N-word" are both derogatory by their definitions. I was reared they are both negative and damaging. I personally don't need to classify someone as any ethnicity or derivation thereof to tell them I think they're ignorant and ineffectual. I'm not sure I answered the original question....

 

[skitch]

interesting

I can understand where everyone is coming from on this subject. While I, myself, haven't experienced racism, i have taken the time to educate myself in how people of every ethnic background feel about it. My original question was actually two questions in one. I agree that saying "the 'n' word" is just as bad as saying what 'N' stands for.

Also with the slang version (nigga)...i very much understand the difference...and being a white, i take it upon myself to use neither versions because i know that it will offend anyone of a different race and it would be a 'put down' on my friends that are black.

Another question...if a person is not a racist at all, but doesn't believe in dating or marriage outside of race, does that MAKE them a racist to an extent?

 

[Rosebud]

Can I ask a question? Why is it wrong (and no I don't call people this) for a white person to call an African American a "nigger" but it is okay for them to call each other one? Is it just the way it is said or maybe that it is said as a negative instead of a "buddy" term?

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Rosie, that's a question I've wondered about too. I understand the argument given above that "nigga" is a term of camaraderie used between blacks, while "nigger" is a pejorative used by other races to refer to blacks.

Even if this is so (and I don't really buy the distinction), doesn't the frequent use of the word "nigga" among blacks lend credibility to the word nigger? The distinction is far too subtle, I think, for most people to recognize without specifically being told.

As far as the question of whether the term "the N word" is as offensive as the word "nigger" itself, I think the question is ridiculous. Can you imagine how a black person would react if a white person walked up to them and said, "you 'N-word'!" They'd fall down laughing.

What makes "nigger" so offensive to blacks is that it has become a symbol of all of the racism, disenfranchisement, and discrimination that existed when and where it was used. As mentioned, the word is simply a bastardization of "negro" and thus it literally means "black". It's the intent with which it was used to belittle and dehumanize that give it it's current meaning. 30+ years after the civil rights movement, we no longer have segregation of schools and public accomodations or institutionalized discrimination, but that word remains...

Nevertheless, for all the emotion it evokes, it's still just a word: a collection of letters on a page or syllables uttered. Does merely writing or saying "nigger" necessarily mean you subscribe to all the prejudices the word represents? Obviously not (but if it did, I'd be a flaming racist after this post). The speaker has to be judged on the intent and the context in which he uses a word.

This is seemingly why blacks are able to laughingly call each other "nigga". It's obvious they wouldn't hold such racist beliefs against their own race. But I still don't really understand it... if you hate the word so much, why use it to refer to each other?



[Edited by Oliver Clozoff on 09-10-2000 at 09:32 PM]

 

[Guest]

"Man, that's one pale lookin' niggah."

 

[Patryn]

Now you're running out of material. That's sad. Go away.

 

[Guest]

I think you're confusing me with another hun.

 

[Samuari]

Our school board just went through a long drawn out fight on this, well actually wiether "Huck Finn" by Mark Twain should be requiered reading for Honors Students, since it contains the "n" word in more than a hundred cases. With the help of a black Harvard Professer it was decided that American Litterure could not be taught without an examination of "Huck Finn". After all the reason that it was banned when it was published was that it presented "Jim" in too positve a light.
But it contained the "N" word and the NAACP got its panties all wadded up.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Samuari, that's a perfect illustration of an emotional reflexive action taken without looking at the context... Those who have actually read Huckleberry Finn know that's its central theme is the evils of slavery and it's considered the best piece of literature on the subject, far more subtle than Uncle Tom's Cabin. But unfortunately, satire is often lost on the literal-minded.

This reminds me of a recent story in which a man was fired from his job for using the word "niggardly" (don't recall what it was in reference to). The word, which means "stingy" or "miserly", has nothing at all to do with the word "nigger". It's derived from a scandanavian word (if I rememeber correctly) and existed before the word "nigger" did. He was simply fired because ignorant people were offended and complained.

What's more, the newspaper polled the public on the use of the word and the majority thought that he was in the wrong and that he should recant for wrong to use it.

Yikes.

 

[Siren]

Good question Rosebud and Oliver....

 

[Weird Harold]

To Quote George Carlin, "There are no bad words, just bad thoughts."

While I agree with GC, I have to admit that some words carry connotations that are bad. In practice, it's impossible to determine from the word itself what thoguhts are behind it's use. Context helps to divine the thoughts to some degree, as do inflection and body language.

The simplest course of action is to choose your words carefully and avoid giving offense whenever possible. Not PC, just practical.

As far as I'm concerned, nigger is just one of many derogatory terms for different ethnic groups. "Spic" is almost as offensive to hispanics as "Hebe" is to Jews. often using such words facilitates dehumanization and stereotyping of ethnic groups. It's just one more way of making a generalization that doesn't fit any one individual in any group.

I think the world would be a much better place if everyone could start thinking of people as "Mr. Jones" or "Ms Smith" without regard to their ethnic background.

From hints gathered from their posts, I know the ethnicity and nationality of several members of this BB. I personally don't pay much attention to this knowledge. It detracts from knowing them as people. I do occasionally take it into account when framing a response or advice when that information gives me some clue as to the way they think.

Ethnicity does matter in how people came to be who they are, but IMHO has no bearing on who they are now, or will become later. It shapes the prejudices we all have, and therefore must be considered. That doesn't mean that Different ethnic backgrounds don't shape some identical prejudices so it's the attitude that's important and NOT the ethinic background that produced it.

I've often wondered if releasing something that would make everyone on earth albino would help to solve the problems of racism. Unfortunately, the conclusion is that humans will always find something different about others to feel superior about. If not skin color, then religion, or the shape of a random body part. I wish it were otherwise, but all I can do is pray for a sudden change in human nature, and do my best to ignore differences in my own life.

 

[Siren]

Good point WH only I think it goes a bit farther than just an insult

 

[Samuari]

Come on guys we are talking about words here, words that express ideas to be sure. But still words, that only have the power that we give them. Do we ban Huck Finn because it contains the word nigger? or do we read the book and discover the ultimaate corruption that owning a human being is. Not the elegant ownership that Hecate displays, but chattale slavery expressed with deeds and titles? Do we allow our selves to become tramitized by the word NIGGER, or do we have intellegent discussion? The point is that the polical correct folks have everybody running so scared that we have stoppped thinking. I would be the last person to hurt someone with an curse, but I will not allow the vagarncies of the day to determine my responce.