the marks of a slave

[Lizzie_Borden]

This past weekend, Seb and I tried to better define the terms of our relationship (just because it kept getting confused, the way these sorts of things do) and we somehow managed to do it with almost no BDSM specific words or terms. I was very proud of us

Does that help you, having it defined in plain English like that?

I try to have that conversation every so often. It helps bring things back into focus for me. I need the feedback, in layman's terms, both good and bad, because subtlty, nuances and assumptions are things I just don't get sometimes.

Interesting. When I’m blowjobbing, that’s one of the few moments in my life that I can focus, when I’m completely absorbed in the here and now. Blowjobs and long runs are auto-Zen activities, for me.

Mind you, I fall into that annoying percentile that LOVES it, (running and blowjobbing). Sorry Syd. (Oh, and I’m definitely not coming from the slave POV, either).

Of course that means I miss out on the slapping. Envious. Very envious.

Hehehehe. I'm the same. Blowjobs, massages, anything like that where I can focus on what I'm doing brings me to a very happy headspace. And I'm better if I can set the pace, do it the way I want to. I love doing it, and I love pleasing him, so I never have to worry about a smack either.

 

[eastern sun]

I dunno, I think if it's something that's frequently occurring, then just saying, "Focus!" over and over isn't going to help it.

If there's willingness to change the behavior, it isn't so different than a coach admonishing an athlete to keep his head in the game.

Western Buddhist teachers recommend that couples develop some kind of coded signals to use with each other (like tugging on an earlobe ) to communicate that someone is getting caught up in their habitual thinking patterns. The slap as coded signal just fits this type of relationship.

It's really hard to change habituated behavior and thought patterns. I like this kind of reminder.

Obviously there are ways of abusing this type of punishment. If there is no willingness to change, no consent, or some organic problem that makes change improbable, then it's simply the sadist acting on his/her own desire to cause pain and humiliation. For some masochists, that works in a relationship. For others, it doesn't.

 

[eastern sun]

Which could lead to a fascinating discussion of the Quality of sucking cock.

Or the sad and disappointing lack of Quality in this cheap plastic culture of ours.

 

[00Syd]

Does that help you, having it defined in plain English like that?

Yes. But mostly just because I far prefer plain English to the convoluted vocabulary that the BDSM community has come up with.

I try to have that conversation every so often. It helps bring things back into focus for me. I need the feedback, in layman's terms, both good and bad, because subtlty, nuances and assumptions are things I just don't get sometimes.

I get subtlety and nuances, but sometimes I get them with a slightly different inflection than Seb does, which can lead to some major miscommunication and confusion. That's why it's always good to lay everything out, now and again.

If there's willingness to change the behavior, it isn't so different than a coach admonishing an athlete to keep his head in the game.

Western Buddhist teachers recommend that couples develop some kind of coded signals to use with each other (like tugging on an earlobe ) to communicate that someone is getting caught up in their habitual thinking patterns. The slap as coded signal just fits this type of relationship.

It's really hard to change habituated behavior and thought patterns. I like this kind of reminder.

Obviously there are ways of abusing this type of punishment. If there is no willingness to change, no consent, or some organic problem that makes change improbable, then it's simply the sadist acting on his/her own desire to cause pain and humiliation. For some masochists, that works in a relationship. For others, it doesn't.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. It's a type of reminder that really works for me. Without a small, constant reminder of whatever it is I'm trying to do or change, I'll just backslide. This is true of almost everything for me.

 

[intothewoods]

His direction ("focus" or something more specific) is helpful to me in the same way that yoga helps me to find that meditative headspace. Both can be a guide for my mind and body.

 

[Netzach]

Focus and attention are chemical processes and not just products of superior will. I live with someone with ADHD. The way we process information is radically different. M is brilliant at focus - so brilliant - but will often focus on the "wrong" part of the information in front of him. This is actually really advantageous in his field and in a lot of areas, but there are definite communicative misfires.

 

[JMohegan]

This is what my husband says too. But it's hard sometimes to interpret these petty rejections.

I've been pushed away because I failed to do what he wanted or frustrated him. Often because I was focussed on the wrong thing, just as Syd describes. It's hard not to interpret his frustration as failure on my part, especially because there appeared to be something I could have done to prevent it.

One nice thing about the slap-in-the-face is that it offers a warning bell. Get your head together or I'm out of here.

But isn't that also a message that you're at risk of failing?

This is a tough issue to discuss in any sort of generalized way, because personalities, styles, and circumstances vary so much.

Part of me wants to point out that he's entitled to his own frustration, and to express it however he wants. He also should have his perspective on any "failures" (petty vs. a big deal) acknowledged and respected.

But another part of me sees that type of rejection itself as petty and unhelpful. Pushing her away and stomping off = a mini temper tantrum of sorts. Unlikely to produce better blowjobs in the future, and certainly not getting him off in the moment.

If there's willingness to change the behavior, it isn't so different than a coach admonishing an athlete to keep his head in the game.

The admonition to focus usually works well if the athlete has received adequate technical instruction and opportunity for practice, thrives in the game, and respects his coach.

But there's no coaching that can compensate for an athlete's dislike for a particular sport. Both coach and kid will be frustrated, pissed off, or just plain unhappy on a regular basis if that's the case.

 

[eastern sun]

Focus and attention are chemical processes and not just products of superior will. I live with someone with ADHD. The way we process information is radically different. M is brilliant at focus - so brilliant - but will often focus on the "wrong" part of the information in front of him. This is actually really advantageous in his field and in a lot of areas, but there are definite communicative misfires.

I would consider ADHD an organic issue that needs special recognition. It's been proven in any number of classroom settings that telling someone to "focus" with or without the slap doesn't work in those cases.

 

[eastern sun]

But there's no coaching that can compensate for an athlete's dislike for a particular sport. Both coach and kid will be frustrated, pissed off, or just plain unhappy on a regular basis if that's the case.

This is where I see unwillingness at play.

I don't like doing the dishes. In fact, for years I resisted doing the dishes. And whenever I began doing the dishes a particular negative thinking spiral would be set in motion. I would rehash my resentments, list all the ways life wasn't fair, predict how I would die an early death, etc., etc., etc.

Sexually driven behavior mod with punishments and reward changed my dishwashing habits, and today I can actually say I like the experience of doing dishes. The thought patterns that accompany the behavior have changed, even though the explicit system of reward and punishment is no longer in place.

And, today, I have the osg zen experience of being totally present for each dish.

(Since we don't have dishwasher, when guests wash dishes at our house, I actually enjoy noticing the lapses in their focus, because invariably traces of food or oil are left on the pots and silverware. It reinforces the change in my own behavior.)

My point - a coach needs a willing player. People can learn to like things they once disliked, if they're willing to try.

 

[JMohegan]

This is where I see unwillingness at play.

I don't like doing the dishes. In fact, for years I resisted doing the dishes. And whenever I began doing the dishes a particular negative thinking spiral would be set in motion. I would rehash my resentments, list all the ways life wasn't fair, predict how I would die an early death, etc., etc., etc.

Sexually driven behavior mod with punishments and reward changed my dishwashing habits, and today I can actually say I like the experience of doing dishes. The thought patterns that accompany the behavior have changed, even though the explicit system of reward and punishment is no longer in place.

And, today, I have the osg zen experience of being totally present for each dish.

(Since we don't have dishwasher, when guests wash dishes at our house, I actually enjoy noticing the lapses in their focus, because invariably traces of food or oil are left on the pots and silverware. It reinforces the change in my own behavior.)

My point - a coach needs a willing player. People can learn to like things they once disliked, if they're willing to try.

The analogies are starting to confuse me here. Not to be argumentative, but simply for clarification, I'll ask - don't you think the "why" of the dislike matters?

A kid who has no innate aggressive tendencies, who hates slamming and being slammed, who may be a physical giant but is a gentle giant to the core, will dislike contact sports immensely. The game itself can't be changed, but neither can the kid's fundamental wiring. A good coach will recognize the mismatch and suggest a different sport. A bad coach will punish repeatedly, but punishment to overcome wiring issues just won't work. In fact, it will make things worse.

Where is the wiring issue with dishes? You didn't like to do them (it's boring, most people don't), you resented being responsible for dish duty, so he dealt with your resentment through behavior modification in the form of punishment/reward. That makes sense. I'm not into it, but I understand how the process works.

Getting back to blowjobs, I've never given one, and have only fleeting experience with females who dislike the act itself. So I don't have a clear idea as to what the problem is or could be. But it seems to me that the "why" for the dislike is relevant.

 

[00Syd]

Getting back to blowjobs, I've never given one, and have only fleeting experience with females who dislike the act itself. So I don't have a clear idea as to what the problem is or could be. But it seems to me that the "why" for the dislike is relevant.

I don't know why other women don't like it, but for me it's just uncomfortable, physically unpleasant, and I don't get anything out of it. But, hey, a lot of what happens to me in the context of our BDSM relationship is uncomfortable, physically unpleasant, and I don't get anything out of it. Yet, out of those things, there are a lot of things that I've learned to better deal with, or that I've found something in it for me, or that I've come to enjoy outright.

For example, pain. I'm still not very masochistic, and I still can't take a lot of pain, but I can take way more now than I did when I first started getting hit with stuff. More specifically, I used to absolutely hate spanking. It hurt, I didn't get anything out of it, what was there to like? But after some time I began to make a conscious effort to try and relax into it, to not resist, and that, along with Seb's constant advice on how to better take it and his constant reminders to relax and to breathe, I began to actually enjoy it a little. Now it is something that I actually ask for pretty regularly.

I don't see why the same thing couldn't happen for me with BJs, or for a big guy who really wants to learn to love football, for that matter.

 

[JMohegan]

I don't know why other women don't like it, but for me it's just uncomfortable, physically unpleasant, and I don't get anything out of it. But, hey, a lot of what happens to me in the context of our BDSM relationship is uncomfortable, physically unpleasant, and I don't get anything out of it. Yet, out of those things, there are a lot of things that I've learned to better deal with, or that I've found something in it for me, or that I've come to enjoy outright.

For example, pain. I'm still not very masochistic, and I still can't take a lot of pain, but I can take way more now than I did when I first started getting hit with stuff. More specifically, I used to absolutely hate spanking. It hurt, I didn't get anything out of it, what was there to like? But after some time I began to make a conscious effort to try and relax into it, to not resist, and that, along with Seb's constant advice on how to better take it and his constant reminders to relax and to breathe, I began to actually enjoy it a little. Now it is something that I actually ask for pretty regularly.

I don't see why the same thing couldn't happen for me with BJs, or for a big guy who really wants to learn to love football, for that matter.

Some guys are wired to be physically aggressive. Some just aren't. And while in theory there may be a way to alter that wiring, I've never seen it done. More importantly - I don't think it's reasonable or even ethical to try. There's nothing inherently wrong with low levels of physical aggressiveness.

Some people are wired to thrive on certain activities, even when they "don't get anything out of it." Or rather, the partner's pleasure is what they "get," and in the moment they don't need anything else to love the activity itself. I don't think it's reasonable to try to force that wiring onto someone who isn't born with it.

But there's a lot Seb could be doing to associate blowjobs with something tangible that you get. If that hasn't happened already, then I'd say he either objects to the exchange on principle, or simply hasn't focused on the possibilities yet.

 

[intothewoods]

ES - You don't have a dishwasher, and you have how many kids? I humbily bow before you, subbiest house slave! I am impressed.

I confess that I actually like doing dishes and always have. For some weird reason it relaxes me. I also totally get off on scrubbing the sink white. LOVE it! Laundry, on the other hand, blah. I have no idea why, but I can't stand folding and putting away laundry.

 

[eastern sun]

The analogies are starting to confuse me here. Not to be argumentative, but simply for clarification, I'll ask - don't you think the "why" of the dislike matters?

For unwilling players, whether it's on the football field or in the middle of a blowjob, "why" doesn't matter. At that point, issues of consent are on the table. In my opinion, unwillingness implies a lack of consent, and consent implies willingness.

For the sake of clarification, let's say someone is willing to play football or give a blowjob, but doesn't like it. I believe "why" is relevant in those cases in determining what sort of approach to take, but the assumption is that they will go ahead and play in spite of their discomfort.

As Syd has pointed out, there are a number of experiences in the pyl realm that trigger self-protective resistance. We instinctually move away from pain as a species. Like athletes in training, though, it is possible to overcome that initial resistance if you believe the long-term reward is meaningful.

 

[00Syd]

I just think that if someone isn't into something, but isn't absolutely averse to it, and want's to engage in that activity for whatever reason (be it sports or sex or computer games), it's possible to get past that initial dislike and do whatever it is you want to do.

I've seen it happen.

 

[JMohegan]

For unwilling players, whether it's on the football field or in the middle of a blowjob, "why" doesn't matter. At that point, issues of consent are on the table. In my opinion, unwillingness implies a lack of consent, and consent implies willingness.

For the sake of clarification, let's say someone is willing to play football or give a blowjob, but doesn't like it. I believe "why" is relevant in those cases in determining what sort of approach to take, but the assumption is that they will go ahead and play in spite of their discomfort.

As Syd has pointed out, there are a number of experiences in the pyl realm that trigger self-protective resistance. We instinctually move away from pain as a species. Like athletes in training, though, it is possible to overcome that initial resistance if you believe the long-term reward is meaningful.

Oh, okay. Thanks for clarifying.

I'm looking at this from the Top side. So even if the player or partner is willing, one approach to take is to terminate the activity. If the kid signed up for football because he's under pressure from peers and parents, one approach is to kick him off the team. One approach to dealing with blowjob issues is to stop allowing her to perform them.

 

[00Syd]

ES - You don't have a dishwasher, and you have how many kids? I humbily bow before you, subbiest house slave! I am impressed.

Who in NYC has a dishwasher? Ha!

Where I just moved to (in Boston) has a dishwasher, and it's my first time living with one, ever. It's the most amazing luxury!

 

[intothewoods]

Who in NYC has a dishwasher? Ha!

Where I just moved to (in Boston) has a dishwasher, and it's my first time living with one, ever. It's the most amazing luxury!

Really? Wow.

 

[eastern sun]

I'm looking at this from the Top side. So even if the player or partner is willing, one approach to take is to terminate the activity. If the kid signed up for football because he's under pressure from peers and parents, one approach is to kick him off the team. One approach to dealing with blowjob issues is to stop allowing her to perform them.

From the pyl's perspective, this approach can really push the "failure" buttons.

Because, at first, the relief at not being asked to do the thing you don't want to do is almost euphoric. As time passes, though, the knowledge that your PYL really wants you to do it (and may in fact look to someone else to fulfill that desire if you don't come around) exerts a steady pressure that is very uncomfortable. You know, as pyl, that you are "failing" your PYL in this one area, and that awareness escalates over time.

For some of us, when the discomfort of "failing" finally outweighs the initial "fear/pain" discomfort, the internal barriers break down and willingness sets in. For others, we erupt into tears and/or defensive accusations because we're pressed right up against an internal wall and feel like we'll be crushed altogether with still more pressure.

 

[00Syd]

From the pyl's perspective, this approach can really push the "failure" buttons.

Because, at first, the relief at not being asked to do the thing you don't want to do is almost euphoric. As time passes, though, the knowledge that your PYL really wants you to do it (and may in fact look to someone else to fulfill that desire if you don't come around) exerts a steady pressure that is very uncomfortable. You know, as pyl, that you are "failing" your PYL in this one area, and that awareness escalates over time.

For some of us, when the discomfort of "failing" finally outweighs the initial "fear/pain" discomfort, the internal barriers break down and willingness sets in. For others, we erupt into tears and/or defensive accusations because we're pressed right up against an internal wall and feel like we'll be crushed altogether with still more pressure.

Exactly.


(You always word things so much better than I think I ever could.)

 

[JMohegan]

From the pyl's perspective, this approach can really push the "failure" buttons.

Because, at first, the relief at not being asked to do the thing you don't want to do is almost euphoric. As time passes, though, the knowledge that your PYL really wants you to do it (and may in fact look to someone else to fulfill that desire if you don't come around) exerts a steady pressure that is very uncomfortable. You know, as pyl, that you are "failing" your PYL in this one area, and that awareness escalates over time.

For some of us, when the discomfort of "failing" finally outweighs the initial "fear/pain" discomfort, the internal barriers break down and willingness sets in. For others, we erupt into tears and/or defensive accusations because we're pressed right up against an internal wall and feel like we'll be crushed altogether with still more pressure.

You're still using "willingness" to indicate consent to participate, right?

From my perspective, willingness to wash dishes or give blowjobs isn't enough, if what you want is dishes cleaned well in a timely fashion, or quality blowjobs.

As a sadist, there are activities I initiate for which willingness to participate in spite of fear/pain is not only okay, but precisely the point. However, for me, chores and basic oral service don't fall into that category. For the latter, I want willingness plus quality performance.

 

[00Syd]

And what, you don't think that an increased willingness won't eventually lead to a more quality performance?

 

[JMohegan]

And what, you don't think that an increased willingness won't eventually lead to a more quality performance?

ES equated willingness with consent to participate. Willingness = yes; unwillingness = no.

If by "increased" you mean "more enthusiastic" or something, then of course. More enthusiastic participation is very likely to improve performance.

As I understand it, ES's enthusiasm for doing the dishes increased as a result of behavior modification, achieved through punishment/reward.

 

[Keroin]

Had a little moment this morning that made me think of the latest conversation in this thread.

Lance and I work together in our home office during the day. On breaks, days off or in the evening, we work on our own separate stuff – for me this is writing fiction, for him it’s usually web design/SEO stuff. The wall to the left of my desk is my “inspiration wall” where I tack up images I’ve printed out to remind me of the characters and settings of my novel manuscript. It’s a great tool, both for daydreaming and story focus. Not so great, however, for “work” focus.

So, this morning, I’m busy doing a bunch of copy editing for a new work project (blech!) and mid-sentence my gaze drifts to the left and the next thing I know I’m on Planet Keroin, with all my favorite heroes and villains. I guess I was there for a while. Suddenly I hear L say, “Hello?”. I turn around with that deer-in-the-headlights look and a moment later we are both laughing hysterically.

He has a love/hate relationship with my daydreamishness. I love that he doesn’t stifle it and that we can both laugh at how hard it is to keep me in the moment. Mind you, if I had attention drift during the blowjobbing, he’d likely be less understanding, lol.

Anyway, I was thinking that this is one of the reasons I could never be a slave. Honestly, to have to give up that part of me? To focus only on what he wants/needs? It would kill my creativity. Everyone's different and I'm sure it doesn’t work that way for other people but I’m sure it would for me. I need that mind drift; it’s in those moments that some of my best ideas come to me.

I’m curious how those who are in M/s relationships maintain and nurture their creative gifts.

 

[Homburg]

Which could lead to a fascinating discussion of the Quality of sucking cock.

I'm not a good choice to include in such a discussion. I reach climax from oral sex somewhere on order of once every 4-5 years. I treat it as play. Very important play that I want frequently, but still play. I use it as foreplay and occasionally as reward/reinforcement.

--

Anyway, I was thinking that this is one of the reasons I could never be a slave. Honestly, to have to give up that part of me? To focus only on what he wants/needs? It would kill my creativity. Everyone's different and I'm sure it doesn’t work that way for other people but I’m sure it would for me. I need that mind drift; it’s in those moments that some of my best ideas come to me.

Why would being a slave mean you had to give up that aspect of yourself? What disconnect lies between slave and daydreaming? I'm confused.

Say you and Lance were to suddenly enter into M/s. Why would he decide then that daydreaming had to go? M/s is a relationship, and there are no hard and fast rules.

I’m curious how those who are in M/s relationships maintain and nurture their creative gifts.

I would guess in the same ways that other relationship do. In my case, it means giving the girls the space, time, and resources needed to do their creative stuff. Both MIS and viv use various creative outlets as stress-release and therapy of a sort, so I don't get in the way. And many times I've been asked to buzz off so that one or both could concentrate on what they're doing. Guess what? I buzz off.

Being 24/7 doesn't mean it's all about me 24/7.