The future is dense, walkable cities.

[RandyRebecca]

Even within the primarily rural states the growth is happening in the urban centers (the larger towns or smaller cities on the growth curve).

Growth for whom? A lot of extreme poverty is also in the cities.

 

[TrailerHitch]

One of the great things about America, assuming you can afford it, is our wonderful ability to relocate in search of our own version of the American Dream, however we see it. As individuals, we each make those choices. Don't like big city life, or don't like the way your big city is going - you're free to either try and change the city (hence the 15 minute cities approach), or pull up stakes, or ride the wave and accept the uncertainty of the future. leaving the urban planning and development to those who are interested (and quite often have financial interests in the paths taken, since in most cities the developer class speaks with an outside voice, since they're the ones bringing in the private equity).

So since you are willing to give up planning and implementing your 15 minute city plan to the money men are you also willing to make all of these cities corporate operations governed by those same money men with no elections by the prisoners, oops citizens.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Growth for whom? A lot of extreme poverty is also in the cities.

Yep, poverty is a whole other problem. People on the lower end of the economic scale gravitate towards the cities for the same reason people in the middle or the high end gravitate towards the cities - opportunity to access goods, services, and places of employment. Rural poverty is very much a reality as well. I'm sure we've done long threads on the problem of poverty and it's potential solutions.

A good urban plan should encompass all income levels, and so include housing and potential employment. A 15 minute city plan would encompass all of the classes. That's reflected in the trends in urban planning to move away from the single-family dwelling as the primary residence and toward multi-family residences.

 

[Crunchy75]

Do you want morlocks?
Because that’s how we get morlocks.

 

[Paul_Chance]

So since you are willing to give up planning and implementing your 15 minute city plan to the money men are you also willing to make all of these cities corporate operations governed by those same money men with no elections by the prisoners, oops citizens.

Out of curiosity, where did you get the idea I was willing to stop participating in urban planning? I simply said it was one of the options available to people. At the personal level, I do read the city plan when it's published and give feedback to my elected and unelected officials, and of course I vote and support the local candidates of my choosing.

I've contemplated a "private city" run by a for-profit entity (or a not-for-profit). I don't think a non-profit could do it. I'm not aware of any such entity because of taxation (private entities can't compel taxes, though they can compel fees, hence the presence of gated communities and HOA's). I don't think it could be done in America, given the nature and extent of our civil rights, but I could be wrong, there might be some way to do it given our constitutional and legal framework. That could also be a whole other thread.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Do you want morlocks?
Because that’s how we get morlocks.

LOL - being an urban hiker, I've been through some places at night where I was pretty sure the Morlocks were going to start popping out of the city drains at any given moment.

 

[Dom70]

hmmm....am thinking it is one more way to keep the sheeple in a smaller area so they can be contained and not so free. Just a thought I had...sorry...I get those thoughts now and then. I don't know what comes over me sometimes.

 

[Paul_Chance]

hmmm....am thinking it is one more way to keep the sheeple in a smaller area so they can be contained and not so free. Just a thought I had...sorry...I get those thoughts now and then. I don't know what comes over me sometimes.

The Ghost of Rush Limbaugh? (Just joking, I haven't heard sheeple in a while.)

 

[Dom70]

The Ghost of Rush Limbaugh? (Just joking, I haven't heard sheeple in a while.)

lol...I haven't used it in a while!

 

[TrailerHitch]

Out of curiosity, where did you get the idea I was willing to stop participating in urban planning? I simply said it was one of the options available to people. At the personal level, I do read the city plan when it's published and give feedback to my elected and unelected officials, and of course I vote and support the local candidates of my choosing.

I've contemplated a "private city" run by a for-profit entity (or a not-for-profit). I don't think a non-profit could do it. I'm not aware of any such entity because of taxation (private entities can't compel taxes, though they can compel fees, hence the presence of gated communities and HOA's). I don't think it could be done in America, given the nature and extent of our civil rights, but I could be wrong, there might be some way to do it given our constitutional and legal framework. That could also be a whole other thread.

I can't believe you would even contemplate a corporately run city. First of all they would NEVER do it if there was no profit involved and the profit would have to be sufficient not only to pay for services and infrastructure but dividends to investors. Secondly, if profit dropped so would services and infrastructure upkeep and maintenance. Thirdly, if it was corporate run with no elected representation tenants would have no recourse but to accept the situation or move.

Corporate America has such a stellar record of actually caring about it's customers and the citizens of our nation that I could see a corporate city being a complete disaster.

HOAs are a great way for the submissive to surrender the rights to their own property to a private entity that cares about nothing but power and control. I would never live in an HOA controlled area and in fact told our real estate agent here that under no circumstances was I interested in looking at an HOA

 

[AlexBailey]

I can't believe you would even contemplate a corporately run city. First of all they would NEVER do it if there was no profit involved and the profit would have to be sufficient not only to pay for services and infrastructure but dividends to investors. Secondly, if profit dropped so would services and infrastructure upkeep and maintenance. Thirdly, if it was corporate run with no elected representation tenants would have no recourse but to accept the situation or move.

Corporate America has such a stellar record of actually caring about it's customers and the citizens of our nation that I could see a corporate city being a complete disaster.

HOAs are a great way for the submissive to surrender the rights to their own property to a private entity that cares about nothing but power and control. I would never live in an HOA controlled area and in fact told our real estate agent here that under no circumstances was I interested in looking at an HOA

Check out the Costco corporate model.

A corporation can be run many different ways, including employee owned and operated.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Check out the Costco corporate model.

There are always exceptions to every rule.

 

[VinnyVeritas]

Robert Silverberg (Silverburg?) wrote a novel based on the concept of huge, hermetically-sealed cities that people did not leave.

There was sex in it to, so some of you Sci-Fi perverts may have read it.

 

[VinnyVeritas]

Some of the negative impressions of cities may be based on "the projects," the government-funded housing built with high hopes and terrible results. That may also affect opinions of government doing anything in cities.

I grew up in a city with no projects that was divided by a river. The Kansas bank was Republican (and home of the most affluent county in the region) and did not have the problems of the Democratic Missouri side, so projects are not to blame for its disfunctionality. That leaves only Democrats unless you want to blame the minorities like the blacks, the Hispanics, the Italians...,

 

[JohnnySavage]

Robert Silverberg (Silverburg?) wrote a novel based on the concept of huge, hermetically-sealed cities that people did not leave.

There was sex in it to, so some of you Sci-Fi perverts may have read it.

Logan's Run.

Farrah's faucets.

 

[Rotadom]

I grew up in a city with no projects that was divided by a river. The Kansas bank was Republican (and home of the most affluent county in the region) and did not have the problems of the Democratic Missouri side, so projects are not to blame for its disfunctionality. That leaves only Democrats unless you want to blame the minorities like the blacks, the Hispanics, the Italians...,

i'M @ lIb3t@ri@n!

 

[VinnyVeritas]

You have severe mental issues but are too arrogant to seek help.

 

[Rotadom]

You have severe mental issues but are too arrogant to seek help.

You used to be a (literal) cocksucking Democrat.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Other than adding the part about the difference between three phase systems and single phase

The grid is transmitted in 3 phases and distribution systems often are in three phase, even in areas of residential connections. It's just a more efficient method of transmission. ( DC is even better over long distance )

you pretty much went over a lot of what I just did but I was taking what Paul said in a mathematical sense. See point finite.

Again "finite point" is irrelevant. It's a buzz word. The system is already controlled to a finite point. Has been for decades. Frequency control for example is already 99.993 % accurate. Voltage control +/- 4 volts

A big part we left out is smart load management. Being able to shut down large loads when there is not enough supply or when there is a fault is a necessity. There are all sorts of problems and complications that come about when something happens, but there is great benefit to figuring it out.

This already exists. Nothing new here.

I’ve set up business with limited backup resources, being strategic so they can keep operating in some capacity just off of a small scaled backup system.

Which is fine, but that has nothing to do with the system itself. As I said, regional area's can be cordoned off to control which allows for non distributed generation, produced locally to be used up in that area. However there is a limit to what an area can self generate and use up.

Even most large manufacturers can still be productive with limited available electricity. Sure it can be a problem but not as bad as a complete blackout.

Not true, modernisation of manufacturing today requires a constant energy flow, even a 2 millisecond ( for example) spike or drop in voltage above or below a certain threshold can cause flow control issues. For example in hot flow systems such as news print, or HDPE injection mould systems ( again for example), an interruption can shut the system down and in some cases it can take a day or two to restart. You cannot have a system that could cause such issues to be inter-connected, NERC's regulation prevent that. So you then need to double up the controls ( even wires) in the substation to offset that potential issue.

When subways or trains have some battery capacity they can benefit from regenerative braking and keeping surges off of their systems in normal use, then they have limited capacity available to make it to the next station in emergencies etc…

Different animal ( but it fits in well with my point about the need to be separate for self-generating areas) an electric train system is on it's own power supply. Once the power is delivered to the Train power station, everything beyond that point is isolated from the LDC ( local distribution supplier).

The tech exists. Smart meters are only the beginning…

Smart meters are just a tool for tracking on time usage for billing. What I think you meant was smart grid tie inverters.

I've over ten years experience in system control and operation and regional transmission designs. A "micro grid" is really a buzz term, as is even the term "electrical grid". The term Grid came from Tesla's electrical drawings he produced when he was trying to sell his AC transmission idea to Westinghouse.

Funny history if you're interested and look at the rivalry between Westinghouse and Edison. Westinghouse's system won, but Edison's DC vernacular still exists today. If you ever measure your 120 V ac house outlet with an oscilloscope, you'll not measure 120 Vs....you'll actually measure 720 volts.

Anyhow I didn't mean to run this threads topic off the "rails".

Let me try this explanation, see if it helps.

Envision "The Grid" as a chess board, a selection of 8 x 8 subsections. The power to these subsections is currently controlled by the grid operator. They can turn the power on or off to a specific square. These squares are a specific size (and unlike the uniform chess squares, they're am organic variety of shapes and sizes.

Already exists

Then, the move (gradually) to a micro-grid approach, where they take each square and make it a micro-version of the original chess board. Now, you have each of the original 64 squares, each contains 64 squares. Each of these new squares can be turned on or off, power can be routed to them via multiple paths.

Already exists

Where as in the traditional grid (64 squares) you're compelled to effect a large number of customers when their is an adverse event effecting a single square. In the microgrid design you can radically minimize the impact of adverse events because it allows greater precision in response to adverse events.

In California, as in other states, a lot of what is driving them to this approach has been unreliability of the larger grid, combined with liability for grid wide events.

Make sense? As a concept, it's a good one.

I assume (it's been 30+ years since I did any design work in the US) these are being incorporated in new builds and also in areas when capital upgrades or maintenance work is being done.

Rather than 64 points of control, your would then have 64x64 points of control when it is completed. The increased points of control also allows the grid operator to route power into a given area via multiple routes. The further distribution, especially in terms of urban settings, means fewer customers resting on a single point of failure.

Points of control are great, but really all you need are the automatic trips of circuit breakers to isolate an area from the cascade effects of when a supply problem starts. IE an ice storm/forest fire taking down a transmission line.

Again back to my question on you using the "finite control" etc as the reason for moving to "micro grids". That is not he reason. The reason is the need to generate electricity is changing. We are moving from the decades of having large spinning generators which offer inertia to the system, to where we will have thousands of small generators producing power, that don't have the inertia needed when a cascading power issue shows up.
(I'll also not going to reactive power etc and where that support needs to come from etc.)

anyhow I'll not hijack this thread any further.

 

[AlexBailey]

Already exists

Already exists

Great! So no R&D needed. They’ve already got every beneficial design worked out and in place.

That whole 150 page report I read from PG&E was fiction and just for coffee tables and you’ve got all the answers.

I’ll go tell my mini-grid customers not to rely on their systems because they’re just buzz words.

Oh yeah, and every single manufacturer has a hot flow issue….

 

[jaF0]

Summayall's got it xactly bassakwards.

They're literally paving paradise and putting up parking lots. That's called urban sprawl. Farmland by the thousands of acres are being turned into factories, office space, shopping centers and housing developments.

Out here in my neck of the sticks, city folk buy 100 acres or more, clear a spot in the middle and build a single house. They do nothing with the land around the homesite other than to make sure no one else can build anywhere near them. No agriculture, timber, wildlife management or anything esle productive, just mine, mine, mine !!!!

 

[Paul_Chance]

@Fuzzy1975 I think most threads here in politics are basically "The Hijackers Express" airline. Someone climbs into the cockpit, gets on the speaker and announces a destination, and then everyone rushes the cockpit to try to get it to go to their destination.

It can be entertaining in that weird "watch the crash" way.

Thanks for your contributions to the discussion that weaved in and out.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Great! So no R&D needed. They’ve already got every beneficial design worked out and in place.

That whole 150 page report I read from PG&E was fiction and just for coffee tables and you’ve got all the answers.

I’ll go tell my mini-grid customers not to rely on their systems because they’re just buzz words.

Oh yeah, and every single business has a hot flow issue….

LOL - I have certainly read my share of fiction in planning reports. And won more than one game of buzzword bingo in meetings.

 

[AlexBailey]

LOL - I have certainly read my share of fiction in planning reports. And won more than one game of buzzword bingo in meetings.

Right? Attended some charettes have you?

PG&E’s report was a refreshing change from regular corporate propaganda, it had almost no window dressing and was identifying problems and company shortcomings in addressing them. Definitely a corporate mea culpa and a solicitation for help.

 

[Dribble]

Some of the negative impressions of cities may be based on "the projects," the government-funded housing built with high hopes and terrible results. That may also affect opinions of government doing anything in cities.

Can't talk about the Government governing in a manner that keeps certain racial groups marginalized. That's known as CRT. Look at where EVERY Eisenhower Highway was built through a city. See all those curves? Perfectly placed to disrupt existing minority neighborhoods.