The everything about rape topic.

[nh23]

Oh, I also have a little bit of control over some things. I mentioned this in Bunny's ageplay thread. While I'm not allowed to have limits, and ageplay was always one of mine for obvious reasons. I am allowed to have some control when it comes to ageplay. I'm not allowed to say it's a limit, or that I'll never do it. Most of the time though when I say I don't feel emotionally well doing it that day, then he listens. We still do it on occasion, but if we hit a trigger, or I just feel weird about it he will normally stop.

 

[Homburg]

Your shows are different than my shows. I like safewords, unoriginal ones like 'safeword' because I like a bit of drama and RP, so yelling 'No please stop!' to me means that things are going quite nicely.

Not me. I like my messages simple and clear. I'm a firm believer in "No means no" even under these circumstances. Given your own arguments, I would think that you would feel the same way.

Functionally we operate the same way, though. Safeword means something's seriously going sideways and there's a real chance of damage being done, and that's a show-stopper. So long as the stop system is there, it's working under the safe and consensual framework. Everything past that is personal preference.

Eh, sort of. It is a fine distinction, but distress is not a full-stop like a safeword would be. In my play, safeword means scene is over, period. Sans safeword, communication provides the stop, but the stop is more of a time-out while a given problem is taken into account and either fixed, or, in some cases, explained as a side effect of the scene (ie it is distressing to the bottom, but not a threat to health or emotional stability). Sans safeword, I decide stop or continue. With safeword, she does. Again, fine distinction, but the whole thing is a matter of fine distinctions and difference by degrees.

Even without the prospect of the visit from the law, the simple fact is that people can and do change their minds about things. What seemed like an awesome, sexy lifestyle six months ago can be a living hell today, and the opt-out is an ethical necessity.

*shrug*

Any time someone wants to walk out of my dynamic, they're welcome to. It's not my job to keep someone here. It is my job to keep them from wanting to leave. I know people for whom this is not the case, but it is the way I do things.

Maybe it's more Cafe material than front page material.

Yup, quite so.

 

[Homburg]

Oh, I also have a little bit of control over some things. I mentioned this in Bunny's ageplay thread. While I'm not allowed to have limits, and ageplay was always one of mine for obvious reasons. I am allowed to have some control when it comes to ageplay. I'm not allowed to say it's a limit, or that I'll never do it. Most of the time though when I say I don't feel emotionally well doing it that day, then he listens. We still do it on occasion, but if we hit a trigger, or I just feel weird about it he will normally stop.

Yup, this right here. This is functional TPE. Yes, you're not allowed limits of your own, but MD understands you well enough to know when and where the breaking point occur, and listens.

 

[ZRT]

Not me. I like my messages simple and clear. I'm a firm believer in "No means no" even under these circumstances. Given your own arguments, I would think that you would feel the same way.

A real no means no. While I'm entirely opposed to real rape, I do enjoy simulating it. It's one of my various personality twists, and this is how I work it out.

Eh, sort of. It is a fine distinction, but distress is not a full-stop like a safeword would be. In my play, safeword means scene is over, period. Sans safeword, communication provides the stop, but the stop is more of a time-out while a given problem is taken into account and either fixed, or, in some cases, explained as a side effect of the scene (ie it is distressing to the bottom, but not a threat to health or emotional stability). Sans safeword, I decide stop or continue. With safeword, she does. Again, fine distinction, but the whole thing is a matter of fine distinctions and difference by degrees.

Safeword isn't necessarily a full-stop for me. In fact, I do explain it as being the functional equivalent of time-out.

In my TPE framework, safeword is basically 'hey, something bad's happening here', and I'll decide from there if we need to fix, modify, shut down, whatever. So it's not a last resort and a scene-stopper, it's a way to stop playing and communicate the issue before deciding how to proceed. So it is pretty close to how you roll, only you're going without the RP element.

In theory I have final say on how we proceed. I always leave women with the option of handing the leash over to me or hitting the door. In practice, though, I don't take a woman into a place that will really injure her, physically or mentally. Michael Strahan has a saying that I truly love- paraphrased 'Hearing somebody scream in pain is a beautiful thing, hearing them scream from an injury is about the worst sound you can ever hear.' So if she safewords and says 'Hey, this is taking me to a bad place', then I'm going to either change what I'm doing, or I'm going to call it for the moment and get her settled back down and reassured while we talk it out.

I got a raging Conan complex to feed here. Hearing the lamentations of the women is just sweet.

 

[nh23]

A real no means no. While I'm entirely opposed to real rape, I do enjoy simulating it. It's one of my various personality twists, and this is how I work it out.




Safeword isn't necessarily a full-stop for me. In fact, I do explain it as being the functional equivalent of time-out.

In my TPE framework, safeword is basically 'hey, something bad's happening here', and I'll decide from there if we need to fix, modify, shut down, whatever. So it's not a last resort and a scene-stopper, it's a way to stop playing and communicate the issue before deciding how to proceed. So it is pretty close to how you roll, only you're going without the RP element.

In theory I have final say on how we proceed. I always leave women with the option of handing the leash over to me or hitting the door. In practice, though, I don't take a woman into a place that will really injure her, physically or mentally. Michael Strahan has a saying that I truly love- paraphrased 'Hearing somebody scream in pain is a beautiful thing, hearing them scream from an injury is about the worst sound you can ever hear.' So if she safewords and says 'Hey, this is taking me to a bad place', then I'm going to either change what I'm doing, or I'm going to call it for the moment and get her settled back down and reassured while we talk it out.

I got a raging Conan complex to feed here. Hearing the lamentations of the women is just sweet.

So..basically your dynamic is just like ours. You just use a safeword and we use plain English.

 

[JMohegan]

I would like to ask something. Will it be taken seriously if I do?


I'm gonna have to do it later though, when I can really word it all properly.

If you ask a straight question, I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't be taken seriously. What do you want to know?

 

[Homburg]

So..basically your dynamic is just like ours. You just use a safeword and we use plain English.

My thoughts as well. Though I have no desire to simulate rape.

 

[nh23]

My thoughts as well. Though I have no desire to simulate rape.

We've done it a few times. I enjoy it, he enjoys it. It's rape roleplaying. Like I said before. There is no comparison. The emotions, the feeling, it's totally different. Apples and oranges.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Middle aged women who has lived a hardcore BDSM life but no longer is and her spouse knows her past.
He prefers her to be drunk or asleep or to feel like he is taking advantage of her for their whole relationship. He can not sexually function without this stuff.
She is taking huge doses of sleeping pills and tranquilizers because of a trauma in her life that she what overwhelmed with. She only uses them when he is home because there are children and she worries the meds may be too strong to function.
One night she takes them and allows the kids to climb in bed with her for a movie, when she is feeling sleepy she calls down to spouse and asks him to take over caring for the kids.
The rest gets foggy for her...kids saying goodnight, spouse changing for bed. Then he is kissing her then next she remembers him touching. She trusts him and is giggling and trying ineffectively to fend him off.
Then she is asleep...out cold. and wakes up to him ramming himself into her unlubed ass. (hot as fuck to her on most days but this time is different). She tells him to stop and then in and out of sleep or whatever these drugs are doing she wakes and he hasn't and will not stop. Fear and being hurt make her cry out and kids knock on the bedroom door frightened...he doesn't stop, just covers her mouth and finishes himself off then goes out to the kids who are hearing their mother cry and puts them to bed.
She doesn't remember much more of that night, he sleeps on the sofa which is out of the ordinary. Next morning she wakes and remembers bits and pieces and feels violated and hurt, betrayed completely and knows these are things she has not felt before.
Trying to evaluate what has happened to her and why she feels like she does she asks him why he did that. He said he didn't rape her and this is what she has always been wanting...why was she upset. Then all the "you are a dumb bitch you don't know what you want" stuff came after.

Months pass and out of no where it becomes too much to bear. She feels violated but that is something she used to like.
Rape was always a hot button for her to fantasize about. now she feels dirty and used and kinda like garbage and when she was dirty and used in a bdsm sense it didn't hurt her, it made her feel good.

Rape or no?
Was there consent because the person was submissive?
How would you tell this person to sort things in her head to make the tornado of emotions and feeling like maybe she really did ask for it go away?

 

[nh23]

KC I say if to you it feels like something bad, then it was.

However the issue here is it's something he had done before. It was something that you had both enjoyed before. Maybe he honestly didn't know that you really wanted him to stop that time. Maybe he thought it was part of the game. Maybe he did know. I don't know, but I think doing it in the past and enjoying it makes things more complicated.

Not by any means an excuse, maybe an explanation. Unless you know he really knew you meant it. In the case I talked about in an earlier post, it didn't feel like rape to me because it wasn't something we had worked out like we should have. I should have made sure he knew when I was being serious. I'd never told him no before so he didn't take me seriously. I saw it more as a miscommunication.

 

[CutieMouse]

Middle aged women who has lived a hardcore BDSM life but no longer is and her spouse knows her past.
He prefers her to be drunk or asleep or to feel like he is taking advantage of her for their whole relationship. He can not sexually function without this stuff.
She is taking huge doses of sleeping pills and tranquilizers because of a trauma in her life that she what overwhelmed with. She only uses them when he is home because there are children and she worries the meds may be too strong to function.
One night she takes them and allows the kids to climb in bed with her for a movie, when she is feeling sleepy she calls down to spouse and asks him to take over caring for the kids.
The rest gets foggy for her...kids saying goodnight, spouse changing for bed. Then he is kissing her then next she remembers him touching. She trusts him and is giggling and trying ineffectively to fend him off.
Then she is asleep...out cold. and wakes up to him ramming himself into her unlubed ass. (hot as fuck to her on most days but this time is different). She tells him to stop and then in and out of sleep or whatever these drugs are doing she wakes and he hasn't and will not stop. Fear and being hurt make her cry out and kids knock on the bedroom door frightened...he doesn't stop, just covers her mouth and finishes himself off then goes out to the kids who are hearing their mother cry and puts them to bed.
She doesn't remember much more of that night, he sleeps on the sofa which is out of the ordinary. Next morning she wakes and remembers bits and pieces and feels violated and hurt, betrayed completely and knows these are things she has not felt before.
Trying to evaluate what has happened to her and why she feels like she does she asks him why he did that. He said he didn't rape her and this is what she has always been wanting...why was she upset. Then all the "you are a dumb bitch you don't know what you want" stuff came after.

Months pass and out of no where it becomes too much to bear. She feels violated but that is something she used to like.
Rape was always a hot button for her to fantasize about. now she feels dirty and used and kinda like garbage and when she was dirty and used in a bdsm sense it didn't hurt her, it made her feel good.

Rape or no?
Was there consent because the person was submissive?
How would you tell this person to sort things in her head to make the tornado of emotions and feeling like maybe she really did ask for it go away?

KC, I would define that as abuse. I would define that as rape. I would offer the opinion that the woman in that situation was taken advantage of - the husband used her background and traumatic past (and need for medication because of such), to fuel and excuse his act of rape.

I think that's about as level headed as I can be about this right now.

 

[Kajira Callista]

KC I say if to you it feels like something bad, then it was.

However the issue here is it's something he had done before. It was something that you had both enjoyed before. Maybe he honestly didn't know that you really wanted him to stop that time. Maybe he thought it was part of the game. Maybe he did know. I don't know, but I think doing it in the past and enjoying it makes things more complicated.

Not by any means an excuse, maybe an explanation. Unless you know he really knew you meant it. In the case I talked about in an earlier post, it didn't feel like rape to me because it wasn't something we had worked out like we should have. I should have made sure he knew when I was being serious. I'd never told him no before so he didn't take me seriously. I saw it more as a miscommunication.

I didnt say it was enjoyed when it was done before...at least not by her.

 

[nh23]

Middle aged women who has lived a hardcore BDSM life but no longer is and her spouse knows her past.
He prefers her to be drunk or asleep or to feel like he is taking advantage of her for their whole relationship. He can not sexually function without this stuff.
She is taking huge doses of sleeping pills and tranquilizers because of a trauma in her life that she what overwhelmed with. She only uses them when he is home because there are children and she worries the meds may be too strong to function.
One night she takes them and allows the kids to climb in bed with her for a movie, when she is feeling sleepy she calls down to spouse and asks him to take over caring for the kids.
The rest gets foggy for her...kids saying goodnight, spouse changing for bed. Then he is kissing her then next she remembers him touching. She trusts him and is giggling and trying ineffectively to fend him off.
Then she is asleep...out cold. and wakes up to him ramming himself into her unlubed ass. (hot as fuck to her on most days but this time is different). She tells him to stop and then in and out of sleep or whatever these drugs are doing she wakes and he hasn't and will not stop. Fear and being hurt make her cry out and kids knock on the bedroom door frightened...he doesn't stop, just covers her mouth and finishes himself off then goes out to the kids who are hearing their mother cry and puts them to bed.
She doesn't remember much more of that night, he sleeps on the sofa which is out of the ordinary. Next morning she wakes and remembers bits and pieces and feels violated and hurt, betrayed completely and knows these are things she has not felt before.
Trying to evaluate what has happened to her and why she feels like she does she asks him why he did that. He said he didn't rape her and this is what she has always been wanting...why was she upset. Then all the "you are a dumb bitch you don't know what you want" stuff came after.

Months pass and out of no where it becomes too much to bear. She feels violated but that is something she used to like.
Rape was always a hot button for her to fantasize about. now she feels dirty and used and kinda like garbage and when she was dirty and used in a bdsm sense it didn't hurt her, it made her feel good.

Rape or no?
Was there consent because the person was submissive?
How would you tell this person to sort things in her head to make the tornado of emotions and feeling like maybe she really did ask for it go away?

I didnt say it was enjoyed when it was done before...at least not by her.

Ah, ok I was going by what I put in bold. I may have misread.

 

[Homburg]

I'm not going to quote that in case you want to remove it.

I used to go out with a girl, lovely little thing, that had some health issues, had just gotten out of an abusive relationship, was submissive, etc. This was all way before I knew anything about kink at all. Anyway, she had some health issues, and was on painkillers for them. The painkillers had a side effect of either making her horny as hell, or removing her inhibitions to her natural horniness. Same effect.

The long and short of it was that she would REALLY come on to me when she was whacked out on these painkillers. The rest of the time she would laud me for my control, my unwillingness to push her or coerce her, as these were things her ex did. So I was getting all kinds of mixed messages. Sober, she thought I was a saint for letting her move at her pace vis a vis sex. High, she wanted deep dicking right there in the living room with her folks home.

We were together for almost six months and never had sex (something which my cock took years to forgive me for). I was unwilling to push her when she was sober, as it is not my way, and thoroughly unwilling to take advantage of her when she wasn't. This lead to an insane amount of frustration on my part, a deep rethinking of my attitudes towards relationships, and a very serious realisation that I'd made the right choice, and that is something I've stuck with ever since.

Vindication came later when she accused one of my friends of raping her, and various other incidents. While my dick may have hated me for not taking advantage of her, history showed it to be the smart move.

Anyway, the situation you mention there sounds horrid, and rife with potential for abuse and wrongs to be committed against the submissive. It is an example of revocation of consent, and the wreckage that can occur if that revocation is not heeded.

There is a lot of ugly in that anecdote, and my sympathies go out to the submissive involved. In this case, consent is definitely the thin line between BDSM and rape.

*hugs*

 

[Homburg]

KC, I would define that as abuse. I would define that as rape. I would offer the opinion that the woman in that situation was taken advantage of - the husband used her background and traumatic past (and need for medication because of such), to fuel and excuse his act of rape.

I think that's about as level headed as I can be about this right now.

Yeah, my comment was prefaced with an anecdote to provide some distance for me, and allow for level-headed commentary.

 

[Betticus]

I don't think bdsm involves ignoring your wifes crying pleas for you to stop while the children are beating on the door in fear and then after when she is trying to tell you that what you did was abuse telling her that it was what she likes.

So he failed to remain cognizant of her feelings, mood, WORDS, screaming.. failed to control himself even while the children were aware of what was going on and were quite probably trying in their own way to stop it. Then he topped it off by couching the whole thing in denial and shifting responsibility for his own actions on to her.

It was rape. At least with a stranger you tend to never see them again but when you are married to your rapist, have children with him, live with him...

I wouldn't even want to imagine how sickened with her life she has become.

 

[whiteswan]

i have been reading with interest everyones thoughts and opinionsand i agree with the instances raised caused trauma,pain and psychogical damage..
but what if it didnt......in other cases..
have any of you or anyone you know been raped and realised that the only thing it led to was a more experimental sexuality..
i was young ...and had only a few unsuccessful hetrosexual experiences when i was raped by 2 women....older.a lot older women..
it opened up a new world for me....something i dont know i would have experienced if i hadnt been raped...
apart from the initial shock and fear of the unknown...i loved every minute of it
i am not trying to minimaise the devastation of rape..but just offering a different perspective....
thank you for listening
whiteswan...a newie

 

[intothewoods]

Ah, ok I was going by what I put in bold. I may have misread.

I also understood you to be saying that sex with you semi-conscious had been a frequent part of your sex life, and it hadn't bothered you until that instance. That part is important for understanding his motivation and behavior. Whatever the past though, in that moment you were freaked out, screaming, etc. That would have been a good time to stop and reevaluate. Since you had been together for some time, I'm assuming he knew that you weren't playing around. Is that right? He ignored you. So of course you felt violated. And it sounds like when you brought it up later, he didn't want to own up to that.

 

[Homburg]

And it sounds like when you brought it up later, he didn't want to own up to that.

I'm willing to bet that this caused more damage than the actual incident.

More than one submissive that I've dealt with rides the razor edge between self-acceptance and self-loathing over their kinks. The entirety of the environment seems to scream out against what they're doing, all while their own body and mind screams out for it. When the core of their reality, the dominant partner, calls them "sick" or "fucked up" for their wants, or, worse, turns those wants against them and judges them for the wants, wow, the damage.

 

[JMohegan]

Rape or no?
Was there consent because the person was submissive?
How would you tell this person to sort things in her head to make the tornado of emotions and feeling like maybe she really did ask for it go away?

If there was an audible and unequivocal revoking of consent and he proceeded regardless, that's rape. The number of times the woman has been fucked in the ass, dry or lubed, by him or anyone else, in D/s or non-kinky contexts, is irrelevant. She still has the right to say no.

I am extremely wary of offering advice re dealing with emotional tornados, especially when I don't know the person well. My inclination is to recommend seeking professional help if the trauma seems persistent or debilitating.

 

[JMohegan]

I also understood you to be saying that sex with you semi-conscious had been a frequent part of your sex life, and it hadn't bothered you until that instance. That part is important for understanding his motivation and behavior. Whatever the past though, in that moment you were freaked out, screaming, etc. That would have been a good time to stop and reevaluate. Since you had been together for some time, I'm assuming he knew that you weren't playing around. Is that right? He ignored you. So of course you felt violated. And it sounds like when you brought it up later, he didn't want to own up to that.

It seems likely that she also felt violated or betrayed as a mother.

Fucking while terrified kids are knocking on the door isn't exactly Father of the Year behavior. It's just plain disgusting.

 

[ownedsubgal]

It seems likely that she also felt violated or betrayed as a mother.

Fucking while terrified kids are knocking on the door isn't exactly Father of the Year behavior. It's just plain disgusting.

that is the part of the story that really troubled me...the total lack of concern and consideration for the children and how the frightened and panicked sounds of their mother being violated could effect them. that is the line crossed that would make me think of such a man as a thoughtless idiot at best and a monster at worst.

was it rape? not being aware of the parameters of the relationship, i cannot answer that question. i personally do not believe in rape in certain situations, such as between Master and slave or between Husband and wife. consent? consent i think is beyond the real issue here. the real issues seem to be more relating to trust, true understanding, and maturity. however i will say that in certain relationships consent is irrelevant, that one partner has the right to ignore the "revoked" consent of the other, but it is VERY clear that these two people did not have such a relationship so those standards simply do not apply.

 

[CuteBrat]

i have been reading with interest everyones thoughts and opinionsand i agree with the instances raised caused trauma,pain and psychogical damage..
but what if it didnt......in other cases..
have any of you or anyone you know been raped and realised that the only thing it led to was a more experimental sexuality..
i was young ...and had only a few unsuccessful hetrosexual experiences when i was raped by 2 women....older.a lot older women..
it opened up a new world for me....something i dont know i would have experienced if i hadnt been raped...
apart from the initial shock and fear of the unknown...i loved every minute of it
i am not trying to minimaise the devastation of rape..but just offering a different perspective....
thank you for listening
whiteswan...a newie

i think thats sorta what happened to me...i was entirely freaked out at the time...but realized later that i was ENTIRELY turned on. and it felt more like a Dominant man taking what he wanted...which i liked....and me needing to learn to accept my place. i thin one of the hardest things ive ever done was going up to him in school and asking if he wanted to hook up again.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm willing to bet that this caused more damage than the actual incident.

More than one submissive that I've dealt with rides the razor edge between self-acceptance and self-loathing over their kinks. The entirety of the environment seems to scream out against what they're doing, all while their own body and mind screams out for it. When the core of their reality, the dominant partner, calls them "sick" or "fucked up" for their wants, or, worse, turns those wants against them and judges them for the wants, wow, the damage.

Yeah, sometimes parts of your brain are in conflict (at least mine have been). Part of you desires x. The other part of your brain goes WHAT? This is a bad idea! And it's kind of a heavy moment and you just need to sit with it for a second.

In this situation, well, I think not feeling heard by your partner is really devastating, kinky or not.

It seems likely that she also felt violated or betrayed as a mother.

Fucking while terrified kids are knocking on the door isn't exactly Father of the Year behavior. It's just plain disgusting.

Yes. Also, feeling like your sexuality, your desires, your sex life led to something that caused your kids fear or some damage (even if it wasn't your fault) makes you want to shut down that part of yourself.

 

[nh23]

that is the part of the story that really troubled me...the total lack of concern and consideration for the children and how the frightened and panicked sounds of their mother being violated could effect them. that is the line crossed that would make me think of such a man as a thoughtless idiot at best and a monster at worst.

was it rape? not being aware of the parameters of the relationship, i cannot answer that question. i personally do not believe in rape in certain situations, such as between Master and slave or between Husband and wife. consent? consent i think is beyond the real issue here. the real issues seem to be more relating to trust, true understanding, and maturity. however i will say that in certain relationships consent is irrelevant, that one partner has the right to ignore the "revoked" consent of the other, but it is VERY clear that these two people did not have such a relationship so those standards simply do not apply.

Either do I. I was talking to bunny about this last night, and I was like ok do I post it, do I not post it. I finally said I don't think I will, but I bet osg comes along and says it for me..LOL