The everything about rape topic.

[quietonesyaknow]

sorry i'm a little late to the discussion...

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[CuteBrat]

i think fantasy about rape is really pretty common. The media constantly titilate us about it. Law and Order SVU has been on the air for years. i dont think there is anything wrong or unnatural about being turned on by the concept of being taken, and having a situation where you are totally out of control.

The more accepting you can become of having a really fairly common fantasy, the more comfortable you will be, and the more you will be able to find safe and sane ways to live it out....

Have fun!!

but I joined this forum precisely to explore this topic and help figure out my own confusing thoughts on the matter. I am trying to reconcile the truth of what turns me on in a fantasy with what enrages and disgusts me in real life. I'm still trying to figure it all out, but I have come to realize that, for me, the few times I have dabbled in control/dominance/forced play was when I was with someone that I trusted and cared about. It was safe to let go.

When I first started to realize where my fantasies would always go, I was ashamed and disgusted. In real life, violence against women is an appalling epidemic. In real life, I have always done my part to bring awareness to the issue and try to motivate men to take an active part in fixing the problem.

But in fantasy life, control, rape(consensual-rape?), and domination continue to excite me. Why? I'm still not sure.

I was even afraid about the possibility that I was a victim of abuse as a child and I just didn't consciously remember it. Several years ago, I went to a therapist to unload post-divorce/childhood baggage. And I discovered that, while, there were certainly situations in my past that crossed lines, I was lucky enough to never have been the victim of sexual assault.

But I would worry for anyone who would use this fantasy dynamic as a coping mechanism for real life pain and suffering. And I am especially concerned for men who feel urges to act on their fantasies in real life(with NON-consenting people). In fact, my plea to anyone who fights the urge: please seek out help before you commit a crime that will ruin your life, as well as someone else's.

And this is where my confusion lies. I am ashamed that something so vile in real life, turns me on in fantasy life. I would never admit these things to my closest friends. Which is why I'm here anonymously spilling my guts to a year-old discussion thread. So, thanks

 

[FurryFury]

It is a common fantasy. I understand your confusion. At some point, if you are lucky, you will just get to the place where you accept that this is something that turns you on. It's not a violent crime that does it but rape play that you've consented to. You are hurting no one. It's all good.

 

[bridgeburner]

On some level we still often believe that rape IS the fate worse than death. Logically we know this to be false --- would you rather survive rape or be dead? Most people would pick life. Rape is horrific but the act eventually ends. Dead is forever.

My reasoning for saying that some part of us is still committed to the idea of "fate worse than death" is that we generally have no guilt -- or very little --over fantasies of kicking the shit out of someone we feel deserves it or imagining killing such a person.

We have hundreds of video games devoted to pummeling the shit out of others and killing them in gorey explosions of blood and viscera. The vast majority of people who play these games don't fear that they truly want to become murderers or fight for their lives against ravening zombie hoardes, but to the best of my knowledge there are no games in wide release where you participate in a rape even half so graphic as the deaths perpetrated in first person shooter games and their like.

Of course, one of the possible flaws in my argument is that we are always closer to being involved in rape as either perpetrator or victim than we are to being invovled in murder. Perhaps this is for precisely the reason that rape is not truly felt to be worse than murder just as being raped is not worse than dying.

Is this making any sense? I was rambling before I took a phone call and now my train of thought is almost completely off the tracks.

I think what I really inteded to say is: there must be some reason that we have guilt over fantasies of rape where we lack guilt over fantasies of mayhem and murder. Maybe it's that even in play, we have some justification for murder, but there is never any justification for rape. Except....if you were going to revenge yourself against a horrid person would it be worse to rape or to murder the evildoer?

Feh. You guys fight it out. I'm just throwing some meat in the ring. ;->

 

[MasterPhoenix]

I have taken part in consensual-nonconsent scenes. I have also been in situations where I had blanket consent and did what I wanted.

I enjoyed them greatly.

Now does that mean that I am going to grab some hot jailbait I see at the mall? Hell no.

My mind can wrap itself around the situation where, OK this is good... and well notsomuch.

The first time I was with r, many moons ago, it was a borderline rape scenario. She had went into her bedroom to get something... I followed her and I took what I wanted.. and she was truly frightened at first.. but a word from me, and she was fine...

That could have gone VERY wrong, and I could be labeled as a sex offender, despite the expectation of implied consent based on numerous conversations and discussions... and that it was planned that we were going to be together when I flew back there... I just jumpstarted the process... as was my right based on the mutually understood outline of our relationship at the time.

Another submissive I was with, I untied her top to flash her tits in public for the simple reason that I could. I needed to prove a point. (Rape no, sexual assault youbetcha, at least in the states.)

 

[reneemyrenee]

Empty dead souls
hollow eyes
A daily dying

Cold and distant
an amber in my heart
the breath of life
a loving thing this rape

divided
falling always
empty/alone/
one half

wrenched out my heart
with a Masters plan
everything is so blurred
what is/was wrong, is right

unsettled peace
wet thighs
empty thoughts
that leads me there

 

[unknooown]

The first time I was with r, many moons ago, it was a borderline rape scenario. She had went into her bedroom to get something... I followed her and I took what I wanted.. and she was truly frightened at first.. but a word from me, and she was fine...

Very similar situation for me and my current girlfriend. A few years ago, when she was with another guy, she and I were very close friends and got into an fight that turned physical. Suspecting this turned her on, I wanted to see for myself, so I held her down and checked to see if she was wet (and she was incredibly wet). She was furious and left, vowing to never speak to me again.

A few days later she was back over at my place and had broken up with her boyfriend. Again we got into an argument, and again it turned physical. I decided to take a chance and started taking her clothes off. She freaked out (and was genuinely afraid), so I pinned her down, covered her mouth and asked if she trusted me. At first she refused to answer and was just trying to get me off her, but I kept asking "Do you trust me, yes or no" and finally she nodded yes, so I said "then just shut the fuck up and stay still" and when she did I gave her the fucking of a lifetime.

We didn't get together immediately after that, it actually took some time and a few more 'rape' scenarios (the last one before we officially got together I did like you and followed her to her room to take what I wanted). But the first time, had I gauged the situation wrong, I could have made a terrible mistake. I still think about that and it really horrifies me, actually. When I was a bit younger I was in and out of mental hospitals for anger issues (among other things) and if my judgment had been off I could have really fucked myself, especially considering I was 22 the first time I 'raped' her. I was absolutely sure, though, that this was what she wanted -- I'd been friends with her for so long and I saw it in her, and I tested her in little ways at first until I decided I should either take that leap or let it go.

But still, I always think about if I had been wrong. Really scary.

 

[subish2009]

I have taken part in consensual-nonconsent scenes. I have also been in situations where I had blanket consent and did what I wanted.

I enjoyed them greatly.

Now does that mean that I am going to grab some hot jailbait I see at the mall? Hell no.

My mind can wrap itself around the situation where, OK this is good... and well notsomuch.

The first time I was with r, many moons ago, it was a borderline rape scenario. She had went into her bedroom to get something... I followed her and I took what I wanted.. and she was truly frightened at first.. but a word from me, and she was fine...

That could have gone VERY wrong, and I could be labeled as a sex offender, despite the expectation of implied consent based on numerous conversations and discussions... and that it was planned that we were going to be together when I flew back there... I just jumpstarted the process... as was my right based on the mutually understood outline of our relationship at the time.

Another submissive I was with, I untied her top to flash her tits in public for the simple reason that I could. I needed to prove a point. (Rape no, sexual assault youbetcha, at least in the states.)

Very similar situation for me and my current girlfriend. A few years ago, when she was with another guy, she and I were very close friends and got into an fight that turned physical. Suspecting this turned her on, I wanted to see for myself, so I held her down and checked to see if she was wet (and she was incredibly wet). She was furious and left, vowing to never speak to me again.

A few days later she was back over at my place and had broken up with her boyfriend. Again we got into an argument, and again it turned physical. I decided to take a chance and started taking her clothes off. She freaked out (and was genuinely afraid), so I pinned her down, covered her mouth and asked if she trusted me. At first she refused to answer and was just trying to get me off her, but I kept asking "Do you trust me, yes or no" and finally she nodded yes, so I said "then just shut the fuck up and stay still" and when she did I gave her the fucking of a lifetime.

We didn't get together immediately after that, it actually took some time and a few more 'rape' scenarios (the last one before we officially got together I did like you and followed her to her room to take what I wanted). But the first time, had I gauged the situation wrong, I could have made a terrible mistake. I still think about that and it really horrifies me, actually. When I was a bit younger I was in and out of mental hospitals for anger issues (among other things) and if my judgment had been off I could have really fucked myself, especially considering I was 22 the first time I 'raped' her. I was absolutely sure, though, that this was what she wanted -- I'd been friends with her for so long and I saw it in her, and I tested her in little ways at first until I decided I should either take that leap or let it go.

But still, I always think about if I had been wrong. Really scary.

To me, half the reason these two scenarios are so hot isn't even the "rape" aspect so much as that you were confident enough in your respective women's desire for you to KNOW she wanted it....and you were right (obviously, if you'd been wrong, it would no longer be hot). That rightness, that confidence, AND the fact that you wanted her so badly that you slipped into that more animalistic (from my point-of-view) reaction of just taking what you wanted....that's what makes this work for me. There are times my husband has just taken, when I truly didn't want him to, but his absolute determination, the fact that the decision had been MADE with or without my consent, changed it from irritating/annoying/enraging to FUCK YES! in the middle of the act.

That being said, it is definitely a big risk. It's not easy being a Dom. Know thy sub.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

In the case with r, there wasn't resistance. I was just tired of waiting. Finally, I had her alone... and yeah.. the fear was hot... and I took possession.

With the other one, it was a matter of me trying to prove a point. She was trying to resist when I would reach over and play with the tie on the back of her top. I had to show her I was in control. It was untied. point proven.

 

[subish2009]

In the case with r, there wasn't resistance. I was just tired of waiting. Finally, I had her alone... and yeah.. the fear was hot... and I took possession.

With the other one, it was a matter of me trying to prove a point. She was trying to resist when I would reach over and play with the tie on the back of her top. I had to show her I was in control. It was untied. point proven.

Seriously, you're driving me to distraction, man! *fans self*

 

[Kajira Callista]

Middle aged women who has lived a hardcore BDSM life but no longer is and her spouse knows her past.
He prefers her to be drunk or asleep or to feel like he is taking advantage of her for their whole relationship. He can not sexually function without this stuff.
She is taking huge doses of sleeping pills and tranquilizers because of a trauma in her life that she what overwhelmed with. She only uses them when he is home because there are children and she worries the meds may be too strong to function.
One night she takes them and allows the kids to climb in bed with her for a movie, when she is feeling sleepy she calls down to spouse and asks him to take over caring for the kids.
The rest gets foggy for her...kids saying goodnight, spouse changing for bed. Then he is kissing her then next she remembers him touching. She trusts him and is giggling and trying ineffectively to fend him off.
Then she is asleep...out cold. and wakes up to him ramming himself into her unlubed ass. (hot as fuck to her on most days but this time is different). She tells him to stop and then in and out of sleep or whatever these drugs are doing she wakes and he hasn't and will not stop. Fear and being hurt make her cry out and kids knock on the bedroom door frightened...he doesn't stop, just covers her mouth and finishes himself off then goes out to the kids who are hearing their mother cry and puts them to bed.
She doesn't remember much more of that night, he sleeps on the sofa which is out of the ordinary. Next morning she wakes and remembers bits and pieces and feels violated and hurt, betrayed completely and knows these are things she has not felt before.
Trying to evaluate what has happened to her and why she feels like she does she asks him why he did that. He said he didn't rape her and this is what she has always been wanting...why was she upset. Then all the "you are a dumb bitch you don't know what you want" stuff came after.

Months pass and out of no where it becomes too much to bear. She feels violated but that is something she used to like.
Rape was always a hot button for her to fantasize about. now she feels dirty and used and kinda like garbage and when she was dirty and used in a bdsm sense it didn't hurt her, it made her feel good.

Rape or no?
Was there consent because the person was submissive?
How would you tell this person to sort things in her head to make the tornado of emotions and feeling like maybe she really did ask for it go away?

I wanted to come back and repost on this... an update if you will. This person is/was me in a nilla marriage. There was no nonconsentual consent involved in it at all... just one flavor. He did know my likes/wants but had no interest in them. Honestly when I read some of the posts pertaining to this one my heart was broken and i now understand how that woman in court feels when the mans lawyer asks how short her skirt was or how low cut her blouse was the night she was raped... but it helped me move forward.
The man in my new "D/s" relationship knows what happened and was/is the second step in my healing. He knows there is no NO for me and he knows when we are walking that fine line. For now he will only make me put my toes on the other side of the line and I am sure eventually it will be all of me. I can do that for him and I can heal for him because I know he will never ever hurt me the way I was hurt that night and he will never let someone else do that to me again.
So thank you to the ones who tried to use my horror as an ego boost, and thank you to the people here who knew the crushing pain and confusion involved in what happened to me.

 

[subish2009]

I wanted to come back and repost on this... an update if you will. This person is/was me in a nilla marriage. There was no nonconsentual consent involved in it at all... just one flavor. He did know my likes/wants but had no interest in them. Honestly when I read some of the posts pertaining to this one my heart was broken and i now understand how that woman in court feels when the mans lawyer asks how short her skirt was or how low cut her blouse was the night she was raped... but it helped me move forward.
The man in my new "D/s" relationship knows what happened and was/is the second step in my healing. He knows there is no NO for me and he knows when we are walking that fine line. For now he will only make me put my toes on the other side of the line and I am sure eventually it will be all of me. I can do that for him and I can heal for him because I know he will never ever hurt me the way I was hurt that night and he will never let someone else do that to me again.
So thank you to the ones who tried to use my horror as an ego boost, and thank you to the people here who knew the crushing pain and confusion involved in what happened to me.

Hugs, KC. My story is very, very different from yours, and I'm not going into it here, but suffice to say that I get it. I absolutely think your story was rape; although, really, unless you're pressing charges, it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. It doesn't really matter what label you put on it. You're healing and moving forward, which is the strongest, bravest, best thing you can do. You take your time with it and go at your own pace, but just keep moving in that direction and the man who did this to you hasn't won a damn thing.

There is a difference between what happened to you and consensual non-consent. Even people who participate in non-con are consenting to that participation. Even OSG consents. You did not consent and that's what made it wrong. And the fact that your kids were scared and banging on the door and he still didn't stop?!? That's something else beyond rape that I'm not even going to touch because it just enrages me to think about. You don't hurt kids.

Anyway, KC, my real point is this: Everyone may not get it. It doesn't matter. Those of us who have been there, or who have had someone very close to us be there, will get it. And despite having my own story, unknooown's and MP's and others' stories still push all the right buttons in me; it's a kink that's by no means ruined for me. You'll get there, hon. I'm glad you have someone to help you. Take it slow and be nice to yourself. *more hugs*

 

[lassgirl]

i could not help but be drawn to this post and to read through the replies. It is a topic that has been woven in and out of me for perhaps longer than some and definitely longer than could be deemed "socially acceptable".

Everyone is different in their thinking and feelings and reactions and that is so important that i will repeat it, everyone is different. Took me a long time to not only learn that, but for it to sink in and to really know it.

i have known forced, non-consensual sex at a young age, aka, rape, and while i fought and the act was violent and i remember feeling no sexual pleasure during the act, after the fact i found that i did not react in a way that jibed with what had been planted into my head from birth about what is acceptable. i felt resigned is the only way to say it, did not feel hurt or abused or even anger. The resignation became a comfort and even a source of pride for me, though it was one i kept well hidden and then eventually because a source of amazingly powerful sexual fantasies.

Of course, i am not condoning grabbing some young girl and dragging her off and raping her. Though personally, for me, i don't find the idea of that to be a horrible thing. i wish the one who dragged me had followed through and taught me what i was good for at that age. Before anyone freaks and sends me nasty messages, i understand that very few would agree with me and that is why even with those in the bdsm lifestyle, it is hard for me to find others who can relate to me, or me to them.

Not considering the power exchange involved in the bdsm lifestyle, but going on purely primal and base Dominance and submission, anyone can be broken and trained forceably, even those who might think they can't and such has been done in all corners of the world in all civilizations from the start. Would i help my Owner to forceably take another slave if commanded? Absolutely. Does the idea of that make me incredibly wet? Yes. Would my Owner do such a thing? i doubt it very much, though it is not my place to make such choices.

i feel empathy and relief when i see movies or talk shows about women who were raped and it destroyed them and they had to fight to regain their lives. For some, it cripples them and i am not trying to say their pain is not real, it is and i know and understand that often years of therapy are necessary. The thing that gets me about those in the bdsm lifestyle at times is how judgemental some can be. All have things they are not telling their families, hairdressers, spiritual leaders, etc. and it is not my right to place judgement that one kink is better or more right than another.

The posts on this thread have been wonderful and thought provoking to me. i never actually considered before the fact that i have watched episodes of crime shows about women who were abducted and raped and held captive and then escaped and cried and felt their pain and anger and then later cum hard thinking about their rape and captivity.

Some find this a major contradiction, but it is normal thinking for me which is why me posting this is a huge step as i have spent so much of my life pretending i have thoughts like everyone else for fear of disappointing friends and family.

Back around to everyone is different. The keyword is tolerance. It is okay to not like others idea's, it's okay to not agree with the way some do things, it's okay to get angry. But i leave any who bothered to read all the way through this post that no natural thoughts that bring pleasure to you can truly be a contradiction. It is a hard and long process, but it is found from within, that moment when we let ourselves be, let ourselves think and love and feel pleasure as we were meant to, not as we were taught within our societal constraints, but something deeper, something primal and instinctual. The day i stopped worrying about being different than other people and stopped worrying about how something could be sick to me in one situation and sensual in another and stopped thinking and just learned to feel it and embrace it, that was the day i was born.

 

[FurryFury]

Glad things are so much better for you.

*hug*

I wanted to come back and repost on this... an update if you will. This person is/was me in a nilla marriage. There was no nonconsentual consent involved in it at all... just one flavor. He did know my likes/wants but had no interest in them. Honestly when I read some of the posts pertaining to this one my heart was broken and i now understand how that woman in court feels when the mans lawyer asks how short her skirt was or how low cut her blouse was the night she was raped... but it helped me move forward.
The man in my new "D/s" relationship knows what happened and was/is the second step in my healing. He knows there is no NO for me and he knows when we are walking that fine line. For now he will only make me put my toes on the other side of the line and I am sure eventually it will be all of me. I can do that for him and I can heal for him because I know he will never ever hurt me the way I was hurt that night and he will never let someone else do that to me again.
So thank you to the ones who tried to use my horror as an ego boost, and thank you to the people here who knew the crushing pain and confusion involved in what happened to me.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

Seriously, you're driving me to distraction, man! *fans self*

It's a gift, what can I say?

 

[Dearelliot]

I was stationed in Berlin Germany in the mid 50s...and associated with many ladies in the 30 to 40 yr old range...the stories of being raped by the Russian soldiers was a common topic..Stories of being guided someplace at the barrel of a gun...and laid down...and maybe 30 or 40 men later being left alone..From the conversations it didnt sound like rape but more of simply being hurriedly used..as a receptacle..not sexual...no emotion, in out, next guy...few that I met suffered serious physical abuse as long as they lay still and accepted the rape..although Im hardly an authority on any of this and have minimal knowledge about the subject......

 

[Betticus]

This turned out to be one of my better topics.

It occurred to me that once I quit feeling guilty about wanting to rape/take/dominate someone against their will.. once I accepted that it was just a tiny part of who I am overall.... the urge just kind of faded away.

 

[CuteBrat]

I was stationed in Berlin Germany in the mid 50s...and associated with many ladies in the 30 to 40 yr old range...the stories of being raped by the Russian soldiers was a common topic..Stories of being guided someplace at the barrel of a gun...and laid down...and maybe 30 or 40 men later being left alone..From the conversations it didnt sound like rape but more of simply being hurriedly used..as a receptacle..not sexual...no emotion, in out, next guy...few that I met suffered serious physical abuse as long as they lay still and accepted the rape..although Im hardly an authority on any of this and have minimal knowledge about the subject......

Um....could you PM me some of their stories??

 

[CuteBrat]

i could not help but be drawn to this post and to read through the replies. It is a topic that has been woven in and out of me for perhaps longer than some and definitely longer than could be deemed "socially acceptable".

Everyone is different in their thinking and feelings and reactions and that is so important that i will repeat it, everyone is different. Took me a long time to not only learn that, but for it to sink in and to really know it.

i have known forced, non-consensual sex at a young age, aka, rape, and while i fought and the act was violent and i remember feeling no sexual pleasure during the act, after the fact i found that i did not react in a way that jibed with what had been planted into my head from birth about what is acceptable. i felt resigned is the only way to say it, did not feel hurt or abused or even anger. The resignation became a comfort and even a source of pride for me, though it was one i kept well hidden and then eventually because a source of amazingly powerful sexual fantasies.

Of course, i am not condoning grabbing some young girl and dragging her off and raping her. Though personally, for me, i don't find the idea of that to be a horrible thing. i wish the one who dragged me had followed through and taught me what i was good for at that age. Before anyone freaks and sends me nasty messages, i understand that very few would agree with me and that is why even with those in the bdsm lifestyle, it is hard for me to find others who can relate to me, or me to them.

Not considering the power exchange involved in the bdsm lifestyle, but going on purely primal and base Dominance and submission, anyone can be broken and trained forceably, even those who might think they can't and such has been done in all corners of the world in all civilizations from the start. Would i help my Owner to forceably take another slave if commanded? Absolutely. Does the idea of that make me incredibly wet? Yes. Would my Owner do such a thing? i doubt it very much, though it is not my place to make such choices.

i feel empathy and relief when i see movies or talk shows about women who were raped and it destroyed them and they had to fight to regain their lives. For some, it cripples them and i am not trying to say their pain is not real, it is and i know and understand that often years of therapy are necessary. The thing that gets me about those in the bdsm lifestyle at times is how judgemental some can be. All have things they are not telling their families, hairdressers, spiritual leaders, etc. and it is not my right to place judgement that one kink is better or more right than another.

The posts on this thread have been wonderful and thought provoking to me. i never actually considered before the fact that i have watched episodes of crime shows about women who were abducted and raped and held captive and then escaped and cried and felt their pain and anger and then later cum hard thinking about their rape and captivity.

Some find this a major contradiction, but it is normal thinking for me which is why me posting this is a huge step as i have spent so much of my life pretending i have thoughts like everyone else for fear of disappointing friends and family.

Back around to everyone is different. The keyword is tolerance. It is okay to not like others idea's, it's okay to not agree with the way some do things, it's okay to get angry. But i leave any who bothered to read all the way through this post that no natural thoughts that bring pleasure to you can truly be a contradiction. It is a hard and long process, but it is found from within, that moment when we let ourselves be, let ourselves think and love and feel pleasure as we were meant to, not as we were taught within our societal constraints, but something deeper, something primal and instinctual. The day i stopped worrying about being different than other people and stopped worrying about how something could be sick to me in one situation and sensual in another and stopped thinking and just learned to feel it and embrace it, that was the day i was born.

Namaste! I wanna be you when I grow up!!

 

[rosco rathbone]

Reading this in the Frum Forum took me back to my old days of engaging with this topic. The single worst fight I've ever had with a female was caused by an argument over Camille Paglia and date rape. That fight set in motion a train of circumstances that is still with me today, many years later.

http://www.frumforum.com/inside-a-media-circus

 

[smallgirl]

Stemmed from an offshoot from another topic. Without being too judgemental of each other perhaps we can discuss rape, examine the different points of view.. rapist vs. raped. The different types from purely fantasy and hot all the way to destroyed lives.. basically an open topic that hits it from every angle.


Does incestual molestation count if you were too young to consent but didn't object?

Also, I'm just guessing that a good percentage of us here have been through at least a date rape in our pasts or even have crossed the line with someone as the aggressor or both.

im cool with the whole consensual rape...a girl taking on mulitple guys..basically at their whim. doing what they want and how they want, her having no say so in it. a fuck toy i guess you could call it.

 

[Betticus]

I'm bumping this thread because there are people out there that need to read it.

 

[asianbaby3]

i have mixed feelings about this. i had a personal experience when i was 15 with a friend's father. we had a sleep over in the living room and he was drunk and while everyone was asleep he took me upstairs and had his way with me (i was a virgin prior to this). i remember crying afterwards and wasn't happy about the situation. i blamed myself for the longest time b/c i didn't say anything in protest mostly out of fear, but also because at first i was a little excited by the idea. i'm not sure if it's considered rape... i think so. i wasn't emotionally or physically ready for anything like that and it bothered me for over a year. i still to this day feel weird if i drive by their neighborhood and it's been over 10 years.

on the flipside... i find it weird in that, now i'm kinda turned on by older guys or more aggressive/dominant types. maybe it's a strange correlation to my past experience, but i dunno.

 

[Light Ice]

I think there's a huge difference between being a sexual deviant and entertaining fantasy (which is "normal" in my book) and being scarred from a sexual assault. The former involves a choice at the beginning of the encounter or before the encounter, which involves consenting to the behavior. The latter does -not- involve a choice, it involves an adaptation once the encounter has started.

Sex is a really personal thing. Our sexual identity, in so many ways, really defines a great portion of who we are as people. From likes to dislikes, aggressor to target, and all the various other dynamics that it involves we begin to draw conclusions about ourselves and how we view our own self.

To me, having read the first few stories in this thread, it seems like women who may have found themselves as "submissive" personalities naturally were forced to find themselves that way during a sexual assault. Because you didn't give consent or make a conscious choice to put yourself in an encounter with the men who've assaulted you, quite simply, you were assaulted. Because you liked the physical sensations, because you found the aggression of your assaulter attractive, doesn't mean anything more than your body and your mind adapted to survive the encounter.

But on a moral level, while you as victims make choices after whether to report or not report, the assaulter was completely in the wrong. Whether you liked it, or not, on any level doesn't remove the fact he took the choice from you in the beginning.

Deviants, particularly submissive deviants, tend to have one of two dynamics that this question really challenges.

1. I am only worth what a stronger individual decides I am worth.

This is the unhealthy submissive viewpoint. This is the one that represents to me the more challenged individuals within the submissive community. The lack of self-worth, the inability to assign value onto themselves, tends to make them hyper dependent. Their pleasure doesn't matter as much as their partners not because of a true sexual kink but because they need the validation that pleasing someone inspires.

In the case of being assaulted these women (and men) tend to blame themselves first. They didn't fight the situation. They could have stopped it, but didn't. It was really hot after awhile. I guess it was OK because I turned out to like it. The justifying for another person comes from a place where personal value is not a priority.

2. I -am- a strong individual and I -will- get what I want, sexually, even if it is taboo.

Men and women, generally, with strong senses of self-worth who wouldn't tolerate a sexual assault because of the invasion it represents. The submissive men and women in this category also enjoy serving and pleasing others before themselves, but not for validation. They take greater pleasure out of it. They, however, have hard boundaries in place somewhere. (The boundaries depend on the individual). When a partner crosses a boundary it is not OK, and the submissive has enough self-worth to assert that and feel righteously angry or upset that their trust was betrayed. Kink, or sadist/masochistic tendencies are a matter of sexual expression and personal choice, not tolerance.

The degree of bedroom play can vary between either group and isn't correlative. I have, in my experience, met the validation seeking submissive in very tame or entirely non-kink relationships. Likewise, I've met the self-assured and standard-demanding submissive in extremely kinky relationships.

But what -is- correlative is how the two types of people tend to define rape.

Personality 1 tends to justify their attacker's assault based on the pleasure they received or the lack of fight they put up.

Personality 2 does not justify the assault regardless of the fight they put up or the physical pleasure they may or may not have felt.

Either way, it's unfortunate when an attacker manages to find and take advantage of the personality type 1. Type 1's, finding validation in being desired that way, tend to avoid thinking about the next woman their assaulter finds.

 

[Netzach]

Reading this in the Frum Forum took me back to my old days of engaging with this topic. The single worst fight I've ever had with a female was caused by an argument over Camille Paglia and date rape. That fight set in motion a train of circumstances that is still with me today, many years later.

http://www.frumforum.com/inside-a-media-circus

I've always embraced the idea that it's *unwise* to go out at night in heels you can't run in, get drunk with men you are only kinda friends of friends with or don't know, take drinks from strangers at a very loud urban bar -

it's really unfortunate that any and all discussion of *mitigating your real risks* is treated as victim blame. Drivers are still responsible for hitting a person who runs out onto a street against the light but we have *lights* for a reason.