The Clone Wars...

[Frimost]

So naive...in thinking of the inevitable conclusions drawn when lines are crossed.

the result would SIMPLY be a plant.

So WE become plants then too instead of PEOPLE? We are then but Plants with a brain??? Then when they eventually clone a human AFTER that WITH a brain then there is nothing to separate us, to distinguish us as people with individuality. THEN WE become plants as well fit to be destroyed or regrown at the whim of some higher human power-playing god.

Its JUST like Nazi Germany, one old man once said this (more or less, not an exact quote):

"first they came for the Jews and we did nothing,. Then they came for the homosexuals and we looked the other way. Then it was the gypsies and we did not say a word. Then eventually they came for us and there was no one left to complain."

Stupid morals? Ha, without morals we would have all killed off each other long ago 2-million years ago and never have evolved.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

Stupid morals? Ha, without morals we would have all killed off each other long ago 2-million years ago and never have evolved.

Give us time.

 

[Dantetier]

Gah... it's not that difficult... really. WITHOUT BRAINS.... the bodies would be nothing.. WITH brains, they would be people. It's not THAT difficult, and only people like Hanns could POSSIBLY draw the comparison.

and again, you accociate this with the Nazi's..It wouldn't be like that. it would be regulated, and the cloned people would be PEOPLE... not less then people.

 

[Frimost]

IT WOUKLD NEVER STOP AT JUST THAT! That is why morals and principals have barriers, lines in the sand, there is a point where you go so far that there is NO turning back. The whole bodies cloned as past the point of return. Again, this is a question of Human Nature; did the reproduction labs STOP at artificial insemination and then go no farther in research? No!

It's already happening in other countries, I have you the example of Brazil with the Death Squads. We have a little more respect for human life then the corrupt authorities there do apparently but even we would eventually lose that concept of the preciousness of human life.

 

[Dantetier]

you go back to the death squads when I already said that if we had the organ plants they wouldn't exist because they wouldn't be needed! And I already stated my opinion that Scientific research should only be stopped by the lack of willing human test subjects.

 

[Frimost]

Just as in the communism North Korea thread you are shown yourself to be naive and to deny human nature.

The "willing participant" and "harvesting bodies" would ONLY stop at that in your own little fantasy world where everyone is nice and jolly and obeys the norms, laws, and morals that you have.

In cold hard reality, principals and morals evolve and de-evolve just as easily as laws and philosophy. Eventually WE would become nothing more than the "human plants" you seem so eager to produce.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

Just as in the communism North Korea thread you are shown yourself to be naive and to deny human nature.

The "willing participant" and "harvesting bodies" would ONLY stop at that in your own little fantasy world where everyone is nice and jolly and obeys the norms, laws, and morals that you have.

In cold hard reality, principals and morals evolve and de-evolve just as easily as laws and philosophy. Eventually WE would become nothing more than the "human plants" you seem so eager to produce.

Unless the world implements "Rosevillecaguyism" as its political and moral method of operation.

 

[sterlingclay]

Hi there. Been away on a sleep break (aren't holidays great).

Let's get back to over-population for a sec. I would say most countries are over-populated if not over-sprawled, as is the case in my city. Maybe with a restructuring of habitat we could allow nature to do its thing peacefully.

I love your talk of individualism. What is individualistic about your words and opinions? Psychobabble doctorate you have. No human is an individual. We can all be programmed. Take a look at the religions around the world. Look at their skeletal structure, their legends, they are all the same! A couple years ago I felt I wasn't heading in the right direction so with a little reprogramming through jedi mind fucking I am a changed man. One thing I realized is that we (humans, individuals) are not as important as we seem to think. In the big picture we are nothing more than a slight nuisance to other plants and animals. Your talk of individuality leads me in an other direction. Sociopaths.

Sociopaths are the only ones with a chance of being an individual, that is if they aren't obsessed with being 'normal'. To be a sociopath is to step out of society and thus form individualistic ideals. So don't dis sociopaths if you're fighting for the individual's rights. They also make for great leaders.

I'm having a hard time with this incessant 'demean'ing talk. I don't understand. But that's probably because I don't get your individual crap. Are you a closet racisist or something? Why concern yourself with what might be? It's like your just waiting to see a clone walking down the street minding their own business so you can point them out and shout "Look! It's a clone!"

Someone said "give us time" regarding killing ourselves off. Well, since someone woke the sleeping giant on 9/11 I've been waiting in my bunker.

 

[Frimost]

Are you a closet racisist or something? Why concern yourself with what might be?

WTF dose "race" have to do in a debate about cloning? nothing....

I am concerned about the future because like any good and moral human being I want future generations to like in a better world then I do. Isn't that what its all about, why wars are many times fought over, to make the world a better place for your children and the future generations of your family and kin?

The wolf will be shit if this cloning stuff is allowed. We have already had religious wars, ideological wars, race wars, clones would make the inevitability of clone wars a certainty.

 

[Ljbonobo]

This topic is very close to my heart because I'm a molecular biology major. Let me toss in my two cents (for what its worth)

The tolomere degredation is a major problem for clones. Dolly the famous cloned sheep already has arthritis and many other skeletal problems that they cannot attribute to her natural age. The process and the exact ways in which the shortening of the telomeres affects the life of the cells in a body is not understood at all.

Nature versus Nurture. An argument that psychologists have been having for years. Just because a clone is made does not mean that it will be "identical" in every aspect to its "original". Just look at identical twins, they are natural clones. They are sometimes exceedingly similar and close but other times are not.

Cloning organs for medical use. Seems like a good idea but the bugs are still being worked out. There was an article in CNN (the online version) about mice that had been fitted with genes to grow human kidneys instead of mouse ones. That is one of the first steps to having animals grow for us perfect matches for organ transplant.

The bottom line for me is this. It is a wonderful technology and a huge step for science. However, just as how wonderful and amazing atomic technology was at the beginning of the 20th century, cloning is for us here in the 21st century. Right now, mainly beneficial sides to it are being seen. However, I'm sure just as many degretory issues are just below the surface. It will be up to society to decide which has the largest impact on cloning, the beneficial or the degretory aspects.

Here are some good books you may want to read if you're into this:

Clone by Gina Kolata - a good book, easy reading for non science oriented people. More like a collection of stories about the process of making Dolly than a scientific journal.

The Second Creation by Ian Wilmut, Keith Campbell and Colin Tudge - a great book written by the people who created Dolly. I prefer it to the other one, but is more scientific in nature however, they do explain everything in case you odn't have an indepth biology background.

Chromosome 6 by Robin Cook - One of my favorite books. Fiction. IT deals with the possible ethical dilemmas that could result in the farming of organs for transplants. He's a great author and I love the book.

If anyone has questions or comments either post or pm me.

 

[Alicia Charms]

Of course, you could always have a big narcissistic orgy with yourself.

 

[reis]

come on now... the best benefit ever... clone Elizabeth Shue.
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

hehe
Me

 

[Alicia Charms]

I'll take one of those, and a Liv Tyler. I'll be back next week for the Jewel model.

 

[sterlingclay]

Nature versus Nurture. An argument that psychologists have been having for years. Just because a clone is made does not mean that it will be "identical" in every aspect to its "original". Just look at identical twins, they are natural clones. They are sometimes exceedingly similar and close but other times are not.

I had mentioned this before but wasn't as smart about it. Good thing for those biologists

Frimost, stop smoking that bad ganja! Find yourself a new dealer so you can stop spewing nonsensical babble. You need therapy.

*buddies up with the bonobo chimp* So tell me more bud. Would you like a banana?

 

[Ljbonobo]

Just wanted to give a good explanation.

No thanks for the banana, mine gets me in enough trouble.

 

[Dantetier]

Just as in the communism North Korea thread you are shown yourself to be naive and to deny human nature.

The "willing participant" and "harvesting bodies" would ONLY stop at that in your own little fantasy world where everyone is nice and jolly and obeys the norms, laws, and morals that you have.

In cold hard reality, principals and morals evolve and de-evolve just as easily as laws and philosophy. Eventually WE would become nothing more than the "human plants" you seem so eager to produce.

Are you mentally deficient? You're obviously only reading parts of my post. I've said REPEATEDLY that MY ideas DON'T WORK in the real world. But just because my idea's don't work in this fucked up world, should I simply abandon them?

 

[Dantetier]

I do hope that everyone understands that the nature Vs. Nurture thing is absolutely true...Genes do not affect the way we think unless it's a psychological problem. Racism is not genetic, it's learned.

 

[Frimost]

And You call ME "mentally deficient"? lol

But just because my idea's don't work in this fucked up world, should I simply abandon them?

Duuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

YES!!!!

If an architect is designing a building and the draft he has is found to not be technically feasible to build he trashes it and re-draws up another taking into account his last mistakes and trying to fix them so it CAN work this time.

God....Get some common sense man!

As a kid I wanted to rule the world, now that I am an adult I can't hold on to silly childhood fantasies of having Star Destroyers at my command and legions of storm-troopers at my beck and call for a career. If I tried to hang onto dreams that were utterly impossible as a means to making a living then I would starve to death because its just not going to happen.


Grow up.

 

[Dantetier]

And You call ME "mentally deficient"? lol



Duuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

YES!!!!

If an architect is designing a building and the draft he has is found to not be technically feasible to build he trashes it and re-draws up another taking into account his last mistakes and trying to fix them so it CAN work this time.

God....Get some common sense man!

As a kid I wanted to rule the world, now that I am an adult I can't hold on to silly childhood fantasies of having Star Destroyers at my command and legions of storm-troopers at my beck and call for a career. If I tried to hang onto dreams that were utterly impossible as a means to making a living then I would starve to death because its just not going to happen.


Grow up.

Archetiecture and Ideaologies are two entirely different things. A building that cannot stand cannot stand because of physics. my idea of eutopia is only held back by human nature, and I think if the right people were in power, we could change it... either that or kill all the people who thought differently.

I'm going to use you to test my Ebola vaccine

 

[sterlingclay]

Archetiecture and Ideaologies are two entirely different things. A building that cannot stand cannot stand because of physics. my idea of eutopia is only held back by human nature, and I think if the right people were in power, we could change it... either that or kill all the people who thought differently.

I'm going to use you to test my Ebola vaccine

D, you're cool. I like your style. Frimost, you're still an idjit.

Good point on the ideologies. Communism does not work and yet it is employed. Capitolism does not work (for everyone) and yet it is employed. Same for socialism, imperialism and whatever else is out there. We use each system as an evolutionary step in sociological development. As humans we move like a herd. Not always forward, mind you, but we move together (even in conflict). If people like Frimost ruled the World we'd all believe in a flat world and genes would be nothing more than a clothing item. Step up with evolution Frimost or get left behind.

 

[Frimost]

I AM an "idjit"?

In the land of fools wise men are freaks...

Archetiecture and Ideaologies are two entirely different things. A building that cannot stand cannot stand because of physics. my idea of eutopia is only held back by human nature, and I think if the right people were in power, we could change it... either that or kill all the people who thought differently.

I'm going to use you to test my Ebola vaccine

FORCE PEOPLE to change HUMAN NATURE???!!!

Your stupidity knows no bounds!

Your brain is beyond salvation-

either that or kill all the people who thought differently

Just like a "good" communist. Why don't you crawl back up Stalin's ass for another 50-years and wait for communisms big comeback? I guess you were the latter of the two types of commies, the kind that should be drug out into the street and shot because you are a menace to civilized society.


YOU CANNOT CHANGE HUMAN NATURE!!!

THAT IS WHY COMMUNISM DOES NOT WORK AND WILL NEVER WORK, EVER, EVER, EVER....

Now get that through your thick skull, it's over, it's been tried and failed.


You know that police expression "Only at Night..." Well, Only on The Internet....

 

[Ljbonobo]

Just because I'm feeling like being a bit of a smartass

Communism does work....look at bees or ants

(not the point but who cares )

 

[sterlingclay]

Just because I'm feeling like being a bit of a smartass

Communism does work....look at bees or ants

(not the point but who cares )

Imitation is the sincerist form of flatery. Wouldn't it be great if we were all well behaved drones?

I denounce Frimost as a dim-witted lit troll. Eat my flame thrower troll!

I think it's time for a complete overhaul for all political ideologies. For one thing, it's true you can't change human nature. But, you can manipulate them to do what ever you please. Speaking of which, Those cloners are cult freaks form Quebec. I don't put much stalk in their claim of bearing the first clone baby.

YOU CANNOT CHANGE HUMAN NATURE!!! Blah blah blah!!!

Running out of arguments, Frimost?

 

[Dantetier]

you can't change human nature? Yes you can. It's called progress, you dimwitted heiny hobbit. If we couldn't change human nature, then we'd still be eating raw meat from those buffulo we killed with spears, and then clubbing the hot woman next to us, therby making her your property.

I'll admit that some people don't change, but they're usually called what they are, neanderthals, and I'm sure you have quite a few in your immediate bloodline.

 

[Frimost]

I denounce Frimost as a dim-witted lit troll. Eat my flame thrower troll!

I denounce sterlingclay as an ignorant, mindless drone, part of the drudging masses of sheeple who think by consensus much like the aforementioned ants and bees. Why don't you go and jump of a cliff now lemming?

Running out of arguments, Frimost?

Running out of brain cells? Oh wait, my bad, you never had any to begin with.

you can't change human nature? Yes you can. It's called progress, you dimwitted heiny hobbit. If we couldn't change human nature, then we'd still be eating raw meat from those buffulo we killed with spears, and then clubbing the hot woman next to us, therby making her your property.

I'll admit that some people don't change, but they're usually called what they are, neanderthals, and I'm sure you have quite a few in your immediate bloodline.

Are you the only fucking moron in your family or what? I mean, dose your stupidity run in the family, is heredity or upbringing? Perhaps it’s a result of a lack of education?

hhhhhhhh, idiots.....

You are talking about culinary HABITS, social NORMS, cultural TRADITIONS, moral PRINCIPALS; NOT the fundamental nature of the human animal from instinctual behaviors that have evolved over our 2-million year existence AND from the mammals before us that we have evolved and branched off from. If you want an example of HUMAN NATURE then it would be the VERY NEED to HAVE SEX, NOT the way in which we go about getting it.