The Clone Wars...

[Lost Cause]

It seems like everyone wants to be the first to clone a human. This is the latest in the race, is this trip really worth it? What benefit other than organ farming can this bring?

A BABY has been born through cloning, French scientist and member of the Raelian sect Brigitte Boisselier have claimed.

The baby, a girl, was born on Thursday by caesarean section. The birth "went very well," said Boisselier, president of the human cloning society Clonaid, on the telephone.

As the effort by the Raelians to achieve the first human birth by cloning was carried out in the utmost secrecy, it was not immediately possible to obtain any independent scientific confirmation that the baby was in fact a clone.

www.news.com.au

 

[EarthWind]

so its a baby clone of who???

 

[QuickDuck]

I have been hearing this on the radio today, but i am not sure if i am worried about it or not.

The jury is actually still out when it comes to my oppinion on cloning.

 

[sufisaint]

Isn't this planet full enough of slaves, soul less shells and body part doners...who needs more.

 

[pocket73]

I think that

the only good that can come out of cloning is in the future being able to recreate a bad kidney without the defect. Thus giving the person a kidney that will work and the body something it won't reject. But cloning another human, that's just not necessary.

 

[Shaq]

I have been hearing this on the radio today, but i am not sure if i am worried about it or not.

The jury is actually still out when it comes to my oppinion on cloning.

I'd be worried if I were you.

Say you get cloned...and in 30 years the cloned you shows up at your doorstep and claims to be your illegitamate son...

Just think of all the problems that could cause...

 

[Frimost]

Yeah, great idea, starting the destruction of the last thin thread of humanity and individualism that holds the tenuous balance of civilization together.

Clones means war, a new class, a new reason to kill each other, a new tension to instigate religious and morale crusades for better or worse.

Even if the clones are just like you and me in every aspect we will still always be suspicious of them, suspicion equals fear, fear equals prejudice, prejudice equals oppression, oppression equals war.

When they are enough of them the natural laws of human behavior will both subjugate and marginalize them or THEY will be the snooty, upper crust of a rich, spoiled elite that looks down upon US with contempt.

 

[sterlingclay]

Clones. I don't know what the big deal is. A living clone is not a replica of its parents. Just regular living tissue. Its growing cycle will differ from its parents and therefore so will its appearance.

Say mom and pop can't have kids. Doc takes DNA from each parent and grabs an egg and perhaps a surrogate mother. Eventually the clone fetus grows into a living being. The baby will look no different than a natural baby of the two parents. Very similar to test tube babies.

Can you tell a test tube baby from a regular baby? Probably not. And you won't know a clone when you see one either.

 

[Frimost]

Or species, culture, society, and religion as well as many of the freedoms you and I take for granted are based upon a strong sense of individuality.

We as a nation, and an entire species really are not ready for this, for this social engineering, for this tinkering in the very concepts of what makes us who we are (at least in our own minds). We may never be. Just because you CAN do something does not mean you should. The US CAN nuke the entire World and kill everybody on it if we wanted to...Does that mean we should just to see what it is like, in order to do research on the effects of nuclear winter on out planet?

Cloning will be a mere steeping stone for demeaning the value of human life to a mere product that can be mass-produced and manufactured like livestock or some watch you can buy at the local Kmart. What is also part of human nature is to make profit and to always take more and more once you get your foot in the door and get what you want. Once these scientists are allowed to do whatever they want unchecked by popular opinion and a set of moral codes they will do God knows what? I know once person who would know, Mengle, the Nazi doctor who killed thousands of Jews in experiments all in the name of science. THESE sick bastards are the cut from the same cloth as him, they think of themselves as Gods and consequences be damned. We are a democracy so the people should have a say in what these types of weirdo’s do and how far then can go in these morbid experiments.

Like I said, cloning can and will change our world for the worse unless it is supervised and a cap is put on it so no more than organs can be produced.

 

[sterlingclay]

I hate to break it to you Fri, but I don't think they can clone body parts. Don't you know how it's done?

As for the other stuff, having children is a detriment to our World but we do it anyway. Is it right to choke out our natural resources by over-population? Probably not but we do it anyway. I'm not about to consent to cloning myself because I think there are enough people to go around anyway. If the population were under control I'd concider it if I couldn't have my own children. Growing individual body parts is purely science fiction. A heart cannot survive on its own and neither can a liver, etc.

Have you read Brave New World? Interesting read.

 

[Dantetier]

I'm glad. When this kid grows up to be completely normal, the rest of the world is going to pull their heads out of their asses and realize cloning is not inhearently bad.

I can't wait for things to take off... so much good can be done with Stem Cell research, and cloning of organs and whatnot... the world will change, and for the better

 

[Dantetier]

I hate to break it to you Fri, but I don't think they can clone body parts. Don't you know how it's done?

As for the other stuff, having children is a detriment to our World but we do it anyway. Is it right to choke out our natural resources by over-population? Probably not but we do it anyway. I'm not about to consent to cloning myself because I think there are enough people to go around anyway. If the population were under control I'd concider it if I couldn't have my own children. Growing individual body parts is purely science fiction. A heart cannot survive on its own and neither can a liver, etc.

Have you read Brave New World? Interesting read.

We've gron small things by themselves... ears have been grown in petri dishes, then transferred to the back of a mouse. Granted, it's not imprtant, but still.

I think eventually we'll be able to grow an entire body, minus brain, and we could harvest organs from those.

 

[J.B.]

you mean there could be more than one of me?

Cool! who do I torment first?

 

[Frimost]

As for the other stuff, having children is a detriment to our World but we do it anyway. Is it right to choke out our natural resources by over-population? Probably not but we do it anyway. I'm not about to consent to cloning myself because I think there are enough people to go around anyway. If the population were under control I'd concider it if I couldn't have my own children. Growing individual body parts is purely science fiction. A heart cannot survive on its own and neither can a liver, etc.

Let me by very clear here because the news media with their special interests are not. The World is only overpopulated if you look at the grand total, the big picture. However, if you look at specific countries, individual regions of the world than many countries are under-populated or at least not having enough babies to sustain there already modest population size and the decrease in the subsequent future tax-base will cause the collapse of the economy of that nation or at least relegate it to illrelevancy in terms of power and influence on the international stage.

Other countries have FAR too many kids with giant families that have 6 to 15 children when they could only arguably take care of and feed 1 or 2 of them.

So if you have the money to take care of your own children without needing public assistance and you are a decent parent and can provide them with adequate education then have as many of them as you want.

 

[Starfish]

Another Star Wars thread?!?

Look, I've been through this before.... The movie was not that "bad", bad being relative of course.

 

[Frimost]

DISGUSTING!

I think eventually we'll be able to grow an entire body, minus brain, and we could harvest organs from those.

How twisted and sick! Eeewww!

And that's when we become nothing more than walking products for those wealthier and more powerful than ourselves. When human life and individuality has lost all meaning and freedom of though and expression would be soon to follow since we are no longer unique people in the eyes of many (especially those in power) but replaceable parts that if found to be in the way are considered defective and interchangeable.

Even if, and that is a big if, a cloned baby has no genetic draw-backs or birth defects the damage it would cause sociologically would be enormous. For that is what I am talking about here, sociology. Introducing a segment of our population that are clones into the world is like putting a piranha in a barracuda’s aquarium, there is bound to be trouble and the two fill just fight sooner or later.

 

[Pyper]

It is within our ability to clone organs, and I do advocate that. I don't think most people understand what exactly cloning organs entails. What would happen is that cells would be taken from the person needing the organ (or the spinal tissue, or whatever) and an embryo consisting of stem cells would be produced. That embryo could then be manipulated into becoming whatever piece of the body required. The controversy here is that many people argue that since the embryo has a potential to become a person, then it is a person with a soul and should not be used.

Reproductive cloning, that is, producing an exact copy of another person, I don't think should be practiced. I don't envision some futuristic apocalyptic society evolving as a result of cloning like Frimost does, but I just don't see the purpose. There are so many children already born in the world without homes or families, what is the need for cloning? A clone of you, is genetically you, not your child. Also, we still don't know the full consequences of being a clone. There could be mistakes that show up ten or fifteen years down the line. Cloning nowadays in irresponsibly playing with people's lives.

 

[Dantetier]

Clones already exist... they are called identical twins. For the rest of this post, I'm going to assume there is no god or higher power.

What would be so bad about cloning entire bodies, but without a brain, and using that to harvest organs? With no brain, it can hardly be considered a person, or even alive in anything more then the BASEST sense of the word. It would be a plant, basically. As for cloning humans and having them grow to be functioning adults, I don't see that as being a problem. Eventually society will realize that they are just the same as the rest of us and no one would care.

As for the side effects.. We already know we can remove a Nucleus and transplant it into an egg cell and implant it into a uterus. After that, it's all biology. So I think the chances for defects would be what the chances are with a completely 'normal' birth.

 

[Worm]

Darn I thought this was about Star Wars

 

[Frimost]

What would be so bad about cloning entire bodies, but without a brain, and using that to harvest organs? With no brain, it can hardly be considered a person, or even alive in anything more then the BASEST sense of the word. It would be a plant, basically. As for cloning humans and having them grow to be functioning adults, I don't see that as being a problem. Eventually society will realize that they are just the same as the rest of us and no one would care.

As for the side effects.. We already know we can remove a Nucleus and transplant it into an egg cell and implant it into a uterus. After that, it's all biology. So I think the chances for defects would be what the chances are with a completely 'normal' birth.

Cloning whole bodies demeans us all, it devalues us as mere organ carriers. This science is already a slippery slope and doing that would already be well over the precipice and falling over the edge of our collective doom.

Human nature is to take more and more when given one's way.

Did Hitler stop with his draconian laws after he banned guns, did his social engineering and agenda stop with forcing German's to be card-carrying members of the Nazi party or to be second-class citizens?

No.

When police are given new powers do they stop there? Or do they a few years later grab more? Once they get the foot in the door they ALWAYS want more. That is why the saying of "give them an inch and they will take a mile" was invented.

We have already given these scientists an inch, several inches, and they ALWAYS want MORE. They WANT to take the mile, ask yourself, when the momentum of events and discoveries is rolling like it is now then were will it lead us, where will it stop and how will it take us there?

Abuse, that is why cloning will become, the abuse of human life, dignity, laws, and morals that bind us all together and makes life and our very existence precious.

Clones are quite different than natural twins because the cells used in cloning are taken from an adult so the cells age as per deterioration with age-wise may make a baby 30-years old in life-span organ-wise even if it is an infant if the cell used to clone it was taken from the tissue of a 30-year old woman or man.

 

[Dantetier]

Okay, comparing cloning to the Holocaust is going a BIT far... as for Telomere degredation, you have a point there.

as for humans degrading because of organ farm concepts, that's ludacris. No one is going to see someone walking along the street and say to themselves " Ohh, what a nice liver she must have." I say again... if we can clone entire bodies MINUS BRAIN... the result would SIMPLY be a plant. that's all... and probably less then a plant. A plant can respond to its surroundings. these organ banks cannot.

And about the taking mile spiel... really now. That's just babble, really. Why shouldn't we study as fast and as hard as we can to try to make society better? What if the people who discovered pennecillin said "Wait... we have enough Medicine... let's wait a decade before we do this." MILLIONS of people would have died.

Science CANNOT be bound by stupid human morals. The only thing that science should be limited by is fundamental human rights. No human testing unless given express concent by the experimentee. That's it. Other than that. free reign to scientific research

 

[Shaq]

Okay, comparing cloning to the Holocaust is going a BIT far... as for Telomere degredation, you have a point there.

as for humans degrading because of organ farm concepts, that's ludacris. No one is going to see someone walking along the street and say to themselves " Ohh, what a nice liver she must have." I say again... if we can clone entire bodies MINUS BRAIN... the result would SIMPLY be a plant. that's all... and probably less then a plant. A plant can respond to its surroundings. these organ banks cannot.

And about the taking mile spiel... really now. That's just babble, really. Why shouldn't we study as fast and as hard as we can to try to make society better? What if the people who discovered pennecillin said "Wait... we have enough Medicine... let's wait a decade before we do this." MILLIONS of people would have died.

Science CANNOT be bound by stupid human morals. The only thing that science should be limited by is fundamental human rights. No human testing unless given express concent by the experimentee. That's it. Other than that. free reign to scientific research

Dr. Frankenstein would be proud...

 

[Dantetier]

Dr. Frankenstein would be proud...

Golly, such a sham Dr. Frankenstein was a fictional character.

 

[Frimost]

No one is going to see someone walking along the street and say to themselves " Ohh, what a nice liver she must have."

I wouldn't be too sure there, there is no depth of degradation and sickness to which a desperate person cannot sink to if they lack moral fiber and a respect for fellow man/woman (i.e. sociopaths).

Buuut, that stated I am mainly speaking of corporations, businesses, people who can make a profit off of doing twisted and malevolent things to the human body. These types of things violate us all if they are tolerated in our society and culture, just as the routine violations to women in Afghanistan taint all the people there to some respect in our eyes because they are the status quo there and we expect good people to stand up and fight or at least complain when bad things happen on a systematic basis. All good people need to do for evil to win is do nothing, or so the saying goes.

Besides, that famous baseball player, Mickey Mantle was it? He had like 4 Kidney or liver transplants even when he knew that they couldn't save him but merely prolong the inevitable but a few months or so. Could not THOSE body-parts have been used on a several younger, more viable patent that could have actually saved their life. Yes.... However, since they were not as famous and influential as a Hall of Famer baseball star it did not happen. ALL ready the organ transplant policies are rife with abuse if you have money and power to circumvent the system. Same deal here, there is no telling what rich and greedy people could do with cloning.

While it hasn't reached this nation yet to my knowledge in South America already street children are killed by police Death Squads in order to harvest their organs and in other nations people are promptly cut-up if they are organ donors sometimes before a full-hearted attempt to stabilize their health or resuscitate is made.

 

[Dantetier]

that's my point though... if we had organ plants (my own term, sick, isn't it?) we wouldn't have this problem. They could have grown Mickey Mantle his own kidneys. I agree however, that his use of the power his fame gave him was gross and he should have been denied the kidneys and left to die a slow death.