The Bratty Thread

[MeekMe]

I'm getting the feeling that it's definitely not for everybody, and getting him to "out-brat" me seems really strange when I stop and take a look at what most other D/s-y dynamics look like. But it works for us... sometimes too well. He hung up on me once during a goodnight call (these are a cornerstone of our relationship) as calculated sadistic move of the emotional variety, and I was so caught off-guard and hurt that I almost went to bed angry. But once I checked my initial knee-jerk, I realized that yes! that's exactly the kind of shit that I want from him! hurrrrgh! And we talked about it afterward. He was really sorry that I took it the wrong way, but I just need to get over the fact that he doesn't want to be an ass in ways that will legit hurt me, and if he does do stuff that looks like that, then I can safely assume that's him domming.

Thanks, I can agree with you on it not being for everybody. I realize my own situation is very different, but aren't all relationships?

This discussion lead me to give more thought to what I already have. It came up in our most recent discussion. For now, testing the waters I feel would backfire on me.

^_^ Mister doesn't want to be an ass in that same way. So I had to tell him clearly what was OK. Well, it's always a work in progress.

 

[KoPilot]

Thanks, I can agree with you on it not being for everybody. I realize my own situation is very different, but aren't all relationships?

This discussion lead me to give more thought to what I already have. It came up in our most recent discussion. For now, testing the waters I feel would backfire on me.

^_^ Mister doesn't want to be an ass in that same way. So I had to tell him clearly what was OK. Well, it's always a work in progress.

If you can put any of it to words, I think it'd make interesting reading!

Y'know I never thought that playing with emotional masochism of the likes that he's so good at would be like playing with fire until I got burned. I had no idea where my boundaries even were, that there would be anything to HAVE boundaries about. Boy was I wrong!

Glad you guys are on the same page from the get-go.

 

[Netzach]

And you are not some fucking queen bee of the show unless I see you as such. Which I dont.

Yeah, because you see me on every Daddy/Girl thread because my NEED FOR ATTENTION spans every single kink I don't particularly get into.

Keep projecting, it's cool.

 

[Netzach]

If you can put any of it to words, I think it'd make interesting reading!

Y'know I never thought that playing with emotional masochism of the likes that he's so good at would be like playing with fire until I got burned. I had no idea where my boundaries even were, that there would be anything to HAVE boundaries about. Boy was I wrong!

Glad you guys are on the same page from the get-go.

Emotional masochism and resistance is like the final frontier for me. I can do "make me" but it's really impossible for me to go into the emo stuff without that absolute greenlit, this-is-what-I-like set of cues and clues.

 

[Endless_Night]

Well, I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m enjoying the hell out of watching, for once, KoPilot and Netzach not getting away with bullying, deriding, insulting, and riding rough shod over everyone one disagrees with them.

Go StrayKat.

 

[KoPilot]

Well, I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m enjoying the hell out of watching, for once, KoPilot and Netzach not getting away with bullying, deriding, insulting, and riding rough shod over everyone one disagrees with them.

Go StrayKat.

Ok so calling out sexism, transphobia, binarism, racism, classism, and all around bullying makes me a bully?

Meh, I can live with that.

 

[KoPilot]

Basically this comic

http://www.listen-tome.com/comics/2014-04-10-PLTM196.jpg

Except just replace "misandry" with "status quo" and "right to ""dislike"" stuff".

StrayKat: Protector of the protected!

 

[Endless_Night]

Ok so calling out sexism, transphobia, binarism, racism, classism, and all around bullying makes me a bully?

Meh, I can live with that.

Is that what you call it? And yeah, I'm sure you can.

 

[StrayKat]

Yeah, because you see me on every Daddy/Girl thread because my NEED FOR ATTENTION spans every single kink I don't particularly get into.

Keep projecting, it's cool.

And you see me on those regularly? Really?

(I think you have bold and even size option for your infantile attempt at insulting me, you dont have to limit yourself to caps.)

Keep trying to intimidate someone in obedience, its cool too. If they let you. I am sure the repetitive use of the word fuck and writing in caps help.
Like in I DONT GIVE A FUCK.

Basically this comic

Funny that, I would rather put your Mrs Knight in Shiny Armor Netzach saving little you Damsel in Distress from me BigBadWolfKat into that comics.


I thank everyone for the support, but this is still a discussion board and this thread has gone way too off topic.
Can we please go on with the actual discussion in a bit more civilized manners now? I admit I would like to learn more about brats because I want to know more about any kind of dynamics I might encounter. No matter if I particularly like them or not, and my liking of something should not be the reason to judge my sincerity, interest or capability to talk about it in a civilized way.

 

[KoPilot]

We were actually doing that just fine until you came along, btw.

 

[KoPilot]

To get back on point, just gonna reiterate this one more time in the spirit of starting over:

Reviving this.

So out of curiosity, I did a thread search in BDSM Talk for "bratting", and here's what I found out of the first 65 posts (that's all the search function would give me) that aren't from self-identified brats, going all the way back to 2006:

Positive mention: 4 (13%)
Neutral mention: 15 (50%)
Negative mention: 11 (37%)

Seems pretty skewed to me.

When I do petplay or ageplay, they are scenes I take very very literally. (hence I get to do them rarely, only with people who are about the psychodrama and not about the sex because I can't do the horse/cat/dog/baby fucking even for make believe) If you are going to flag "horsey" I am going to accept that the bottom will do what I make it do - and given no clear direction it will roll on the ground and eat anything left lying around and shit on the floor.

It's a complete and total zone of control and also engagement. The bottom cedes all control and all responsibility.

This is where its at for me. Pet play and bratting is, for me, about channeling id. If I could get S to put food on the floor, it would be the tastiest thing in the world when I was in catspace. Shitting with the bathroom door open (because kitties use the bathroom, ysee) would be par for the course. But that's extreme and he's not there yet.

If I'm not getting what I want - it's my failure to frame, my failure to enforce, my failure to condition.

This is what I want to know more about. The complex psychology and attention to detail and being honest open with yourself as top to know exactly what you want and to figure out how to get it. But I love that it's not even this issue of "oh shit, my bad", it's like... finding that you tuned the guitar wrong. Just tune again, no big deal.

I don't really see this as "brat" but I do see a negative response to scenes of anything less than complete obedience. I like those, but I really do like variety more. Could I live in that zone, fuck no. A dirty weekend? Sublime.

Either complete obedience or catty bodice-ripping play resistance seems to be the norm. I'm not interested in either of those. But a weekend sounds great. Or an afternoon. Or a morning. Or whatever.

My wife criticized my shitty bondage early in the rel. (I learned non-shitty bondage since then.) It's completely valid in my experience for someone to want to be able to have the experience of struggle in earnest and to know they're going to lose.

For me it's more a struggle against the self than an actual struggle against him? It's something not meeting up quite right in my own head that's giving me BSoDs. Bratting is the tic that's necessary for things to snap into place. Without it, everything will stay not-quite-right for the rest of the scene/evening.

The "everything that's not easy for me is bratting" stance is very lazy to me.

There are certain foundational levels where resistance is not a game I engage in, because it's not productive for me, but it's certainly not a case of "how can anyone LIKE that?"

S and I aren't there yet, but I'm pretty excited, tbh, to find out where these sore spots for him end up being. Where he just will not, under no circumstances, tolerate my shit. And I think he's definitely the sort of person to express his disapproval and frustration by completely disengaging rather than lashing out. Hmm... but given his history of hanging up on me and walking away at my most flustered because it's fun for him, it's going to be really tough for me to tell the difference.

 

[Netzach]

Either complete obedience or catty bodice-ripping play resistance seems to be the norm. I'm not interested in either of those. But a weekend sounds great. Or an afternoon. Or a morning. Or whatever.

Not only a norm but a policed norm - as evidenced loudly right here. Do you think that "brat" is where people go because the vocabulary is inadequate? Because this infantilized female is where everyone gets funneled when they think about the word. And it's become a shorthand for resistance. Any resistance.

A brat is largely an infantilized manipulative female trope in SM. Contrast the hate this orientation draws compared with a mature manipulative male (Dom) getting every fucking positive stroke known to man. Yeah, there's no real mystery as to what's the problem everyone has with this archetype.

For me it's more a struggle against the self than an actual struggle against him? It's something not meeting up quite right in my own head that's giving me BSoDs. Bratting is the tic that's necessary for things to snap into place. Without it, everything will stay not-quite-right for the rest of the scene/evening.

Makes total sense to me. And in the scene which prioritizes dee ess over any other kind of interaction, this is a Great Un Talked About - the masochist or fetishist who is having An Experience. Just as the fucker who is about the orgasm and not the bonding is the un-discussed lover, and there's this giant goopy icing that's layered over all sex in order for it to be "good, healthy sex" there's this idea that submission and bottoming has to be this selective *personal* response to one person's awesome and not ever about you and yourself or where you are for a night or your needs. The top provider of experience is cast as a "service top" servant, never just a person having their experience in the interaction either.

The obsession with hierarchy and winning and order has to own everything.

 

[Netzach]

We were actually doing that just fine until you came along, btw.

Silly bitch I am, I forgot to grow a dick before I disagreed with anyone ever! Primalex better share some of his leftover pom poms and bare tits with me.

 

[IrisAlthea]

Not only a norm but a policed norm - as evidenced loudly right here. Do you think that "brat" is where people go because the vocabulary is inadequate? Because this infantilized female is where everyone gets funneled when they think about the word. And it's become a shorthand for resistance. Any resistance.

A brat is largely an infantilized manipulative female trope in SM. Contrast the hate this orientation draws compared with a mature manipulative male (Dom) getting every fucking positive stroke known to man. Yeah, there's no real mystery as to what's the problem everyone has with this archetype.



Makes total sense to me. And in the scene which prioritizes dee ess over any other kind of interaction, this is a Great Un Talked About - the masochist or fetishist who is having An Experience. Just as the fucker who is about the orgasm and not the bonding is the un-discussed lover, and there's this giant goopy icing that's layered over all sex in order for it to be "good, healthy sex" there's this idea that submission and bottoming has to be this selective *personal* response to one person's awesome and not ever about you and yourself or where you are for a night or your needs. The top provider of experience is cast as a "service top" servant, never just a person having their experience in the interaction either.

The obsession with hierarchy and winning and order has to own everything.

Yes, I think it's very much about inadequate vocabulary and a need to build a superstructure that makes whatever it is people do or want sexually okay. Sometimes it's about separating it from abuse, sometimes about making it "good, clean fun" and for some people about getting it to merge it with their other political and/or religious ideas.

Peoples ideas about bratting seem to range from any kind of playful banter via all kinds of immature relationship behaviour to any (but yes, usually female) submissive who has questions or thoughts beyond yes.
The terms submissive and dominant are even worse, despite Stellas efforts.

If you shove a lot of categories in the same container you get a mess.

 

[Stella_Omega]

speaking ONLY for myself;

Netz has always shared a wide breadth of knowledge, hugely practical expertise and like that. She's not only pro, she does it for love as well. She's honest and intimate and not afraid to expose her own shortcomings, and how they have impacted her. She is my Queen Bee of the fucking show. That's been my feeling about her for years now.

KoPilot is very special to me. They mirror my struggles with gender and paraphilia-- I'd not met any other AFAB that did to such an extant before, or whose conflicts in BDSM were so similar to mine-- half the time they mightas well be writing my posts for me.

Just wanted to say that

One of these days i will write a little encomium for each poster of this forum-- I've known so many of you for what-- nine years?

 

[Netzach]

speaking ONLY for myself;

Netz has always shared a wide breadth of knowledge, hugely practical expertise and like that. She's not only pro, she does it for love as well. She's honest and intimate and not afraid to expose her own shortcomings, and how they have impacted her. She is my Queen Bee of the fucking show. That's been my feeling about her for years now.

KoPilot is very special to me. They mirror my struggles with gender and paraphilia-- I'd not met any other AFAB that did to such an extant before, or whose conflicts in BDSM were so similar to mine-- half the time they mightas well be writing my posts for me.

Just wanted to say that

One of these days i will write a little encomium for each poster of this forum-- I've known so many of you for what-- nine years?

The thing the easily butthurt who think this is some cute power trip don't understand is that when I'm pretty sure you're being wrong in an asshole-to-someone-else way with no obvious provocation, I don't care who you are, if you're one of my friendsy people off here or not, I'm going to treat every instance pretty much identically. If I don't agree with you, I'm not going to pretend to agree with you for the sake of amity or anything else you can get out of forums. If I saw you pulling a dick move ten seconds after saying nice things about me I'm going to call it as I see it.

I don't have time for the bullshit of politesse and it's not a ton of things in the world that I'm pretty sure are black-is-black-white-is-white uncool. People shitting on a sub-orientation of the marginal-enough orientation of kink can fuck back off to vanilla land - you'll get all the validtion in the world for your shit-slinging.

It's very rare actually, as I do think most things are nuanced. But comedy and derision better roll UPhill. I'm not going to suffer that stupidity silently.

 

[All_4_Love]

speaking ONLY for myself;

Netz has always shared a wide breadth of knowledge, hugely practical expertise and like that.

She's honest and intimate and not afraid to expose her own shortcomings, and how they have impacted her.

She is my Queen Bee of the fucking show. That's been my feeling about her for years now.

This is how I feel about you, Stella. As I’ve said before, I’ve been reading here for a long time. I have not participated until recently, but I feel like I have known some of you for years.

You are absolutely brilliant about many topics, as is Netzach. I can see that as being one of the many reasons that you admire her so much.

There are a lot of people here that are very tough, as in, they take “no shit” and have no problems dishing it out, either; their confidence unwavering. There are a few of those people that have always stood out to me because aside from that, I see a deep well of caring, compassion, empathy, love, and goodness in them. And, so, because of this, my admiration for them is immeasurable.

You are one of those people.

 

[Netzach]

Yes, I think it's very much about inadequate vocabulary and a need to build a superstructure that makes whatever it is people do or want sexually okay. Sometimes it's about separating it from abuse, sometimes about making it "good, clean fun" and for some people about getting it to merge it with their other political and/or religious ideas.

Peoples ideas about bratting seem to range from any kind of playful banter via all kinds of immature relationship behaviour to any (but yes, usually female) submissive who has questions or thoughts beyond yes.
The terms submissive and dominant are even worse, despite Stellas efforts.

If you shove a lot of categories in the same container you get a mess.

This is a really good observation and one I hadn't really thought about. That there's a degree of outside-imposed guilt or self hate controlling the dialogue of people who may not even be feeling those things.

 

[KoPilot]

Peoples ideas about bratting seem to range from any kind of playful banter via all kinds of immature relationship behaviour to any (but yes, usually female) submissive who has questions or thoughts beyond yes.

I'm really latching onto this right now. Is is that (presumably) female submissives need an extra descriptor to... what, signal that they have some sort of personality that isn't canned? Or some sort of different way of submitting/bottoming/whatever? That yes, there is that internal world going on and it's strange and dangerous and wonderful?

I've never heard a male sub get called a brat. In fact, I've never heard a male anything get called a brat once they've hit puberty. Netz, what's your take on this?

speaking ONLY for myself;

Netz has always shared a wide breadth of knowledge, hugely practical expertise and like that. She's not only pro, she does it for love as well. She's honest and intimate and not afraid to expose her own shortcomings, and how they have impacted her. She is my Queen Bee of the fucking show. That's been my feeling about her for years now.

KoPilot is very special to me. They mirror my struggles with gender and paraphilia-- I'd not met any other AFAB that did to such an extant before, or whose conflicts in BDSM were so similar to mine-- half the time they mightas well be writing my posts for me.

Just wanted to say that

One of these days i will write a little encomium for each poster of this forum-- I've known so many of you for what-- nine years?

Wholly agreed and... aw shucks. That means a lot, Stella. And I way seriously mean it. Not that I've sort of looked to you and Netz and something akin to metors, if that's all possible in a from-afar sort of way, or anything silly like that..

I don't have time for the bullshit of politesse and it's not a ton of things in the world that I'm pretty sure are black-is-black-white-is-white uncool. People shitting on a sub-orientation of the marginal-enough orientation of kink can fuck back off to vanilla land - you'll get all the validtion in the world for your shit-slinging.

It's very rare actually, as I do think most things are nuanced. But comedy and derision better roll UPhill. I'm not going to suffer that stupidity silently.

Pretty much. One of the few things I will kick and scream and slay for is for things to be fair-- for fucking everyone, not just the people who get off on curb-stomping others in the name of "get used to it, that's life". As though being a dick is a force of nature or some shit that we just shrug at and wait for it to be over.

This is a really good observation and one I hadn't really thought about. That there's a degree of outside-imposed guilt or self hate controlling the dialogue of people who may not even be feeling those things.

This is what what so flabbergasting about SK's "foaming at the mouth" reaction to what... the fact that I just came up with some shitty stats about how people like me are talked about on this forum? And then made a relatively benign observation based on it? It was like I was personally attacking her with numbers. Christ.

Again, I'm just glad that this sort of thing is irritating at best and temporarily exhausting at worst for me. I'd hate to be someone else who was really struggling and came away from this forum feeling like they didn't deserve to be loved because of that kind of language. (Take responsibility of the shit you say, people. Words don't exist in a vacuum either.)

 

[StrayKat]

The thing the easily butthurt who think this is some cute power trip don't understand is that when I'm pretty sure you're being wrong in an asshole-to-someone-else way with no obvious provocation, I don't care who you are, if you're one of my friendsy people off here or not, I'm going to treat every instance pretty much identically. If I don't agree with you, I'm not going to pretend to agree with you for the sake of amity or anything else you can get out of forums. If I saw you pulling a dick move ten seconds after saying nice things about me I'm going to call it as I see it.

I don't have time for the bullshit of politesse and it's not a ton of things in the world that I'm pretty sure are black-is-black-white-is-white uncool. People shitting on a sub-orientation of the marginal-enough orientation of kink can fuck back off to vanilla land - you'll get all the validtion in the world for your shit-slinging.

It's very rare actually, as I do think most things are nuanced. But comedy and derision better roll UPhill. I'm not going to suffer that stupidity silently.

You are so full of shit. You dont even see I treat every poster the same, be it man, woman or anything else. So your calling out for Primalex pom poms is just showing you dont have damn clue about me or what I post here yet think you can call me out.

I wrote about my dislikes of brats in another thread, where somebody else pointed out they are not happy about my views, actually the same person who called you and KoPilot out for cyber bullying here. I said I was sorry if I went overboard and offered to edit my post. You were nowhere near arguing then even though there was much more brat hating going on there than here.

Then KoPilot pulled out this thread because apparently she wanted to make some point about brats being loved/understand/presented. And then got statistics out of it which she pronounced skewed. Why skewed? I asked and am still asking why is that data skewed? Because majority of people do not want bratty behavior in their relationships? Why is that skewed? That is what they like and they dont have to like KoPilot nor her particular dynamics. That does not have to mean they dont understand and are going to change their opinion if she only manages to explain how wonderful she is. Data is data, facts, pronouncing them skewed because you dont like them is completely idiotic. When I saw she has no intention of answering my actual question, why does she think that is skewed, but just went into defensive sulking mode, I stopped posting. She could have given me some other explanation for "skewed" but since she didnt I kept my original one - skewed is something she doesnt like no matter if its true or not.
Other people popped in, some trying to understand and make comparisons some making a few jokes. Like in any other thread, yet I dont see your self righteous ass slamming into other threads that go offtopic or where people post some comedy. Apparently you "suffer stupidity silently" without a problem there?

This thread is particularly dear to KoPilot so she calls out people in a nasty derisive way for daring to post what they thought was support to her, or comparison she didnt like and even call names someone who never actually posted. So I posted again to tell her it was a dick move on her part. Everything else was bickering back and forward between me and her, nothing about actual subject. And then comes you in your grande elephant-in-a-porcelain-store manner and try to pour shitpile of insults and swearing on my head, answering with a quote that had nothing to do with you. Everyone with 2 gray cells can see you have problem with who am I talking to not what am I talking about. Yes, its a power trip but much less cute than you think. Your bias shows like 3 sizes too big petticoat. And its a dirty, ragged one too.

You may not have time for bullshit of politeness but you sure have time to prance around playing the Empress and trying to bully those you dont like. I have time enough, but I have no more patience for your crap. And because I dont want to even see you quoted anymore I am going to put the entire trio Fantastic on my ignore list.
You can pat each other on the back how you got rid of one more unwanted element in your precious thread now. Now excuse me I have to puke because I am not into poop play either.

 

[KoPilot]

And because I dont want to even see you quoted anymore I am going to put the entire trio Fantastic on my ignore list.

So much for learning from people who are older and wiser, eh?

Anyways, my life just got that much easier now.

http://media.tumblr.com/51a5e55dc04c26b623bd2245e42ee5f2/tumblr_inline_n4q1jgnEqx1qafrh6.gif

 

[Curious_in_Cali]

Defiance begs for control just kind of makes sense I think.

 

[MeekMe]

...the fact that I just came up with some shitty stats about how people like me are talked about on this forum? And then made a relatively benign observation based on it?

Again, I'm just glad that this sort of thing is irritating at best and temporarily exhausting at worst for me. I'd hate to be someone else who was really struggling and came away from this forum feeling like they didn't deserve to be loved because of that kind of language. (Take responsibility of the shit you say, people. Words don't exist in a vacuum either.)

I was doing some research so I could show Mister some things last night. I was getting pretty frustrated. I found one good link for dominants, and a million so-so links for submissives.

I wanted to show him the bottom half to give him a rounded perspective. It wasn't good, everything I found was pretty far leaning. Too much, "submissives should do X..."

Well, I was determined so I kept reading and searching and just about every site that talked about submissives stated things like "don't do bratty behavior."
Every time the word brat came up, it was in the sections of what subs should NOT do.

It seems that it's not just negative here on this forum. It seems common for brat to be associated with just plain bad behavior. I find it strange that many people are into this behavior, but it's almost always seen as a negative.

Well, I didn't find any links that were good enough. Too many "twue subs do this" or too much into the 24/7 slave thing. I ended up writing him a page and a half of what I want him to know about my submissive side. Ha! Can't find an article? Write your own!

I hope that the more positive comments here can be helpful to those who enjoy this kind of play. I'm still new, and already I've seen a lot of negativity among kinksters toward each other. We're all human, so this is bound to happen, but you'd think people would be a little more open. Maybe a little less judgmental, or constructive at least.

It's possible I'm just very naive.

 

[Netzach]

I was doing some research so I could show Mister some things last night. I was getting pretty frustrated. I found one good link for dominants, and a million so-so links for submissives.

I wanted to show him the bottom half to give him a rounded perspective. It wasn't good, everything I found was pretty far leaning. Too much, "submissives should do X..."

Well, I was determined so I kept reading and searching and just about every site that talked about submissives stated things like "don't do bratty behavior."
Every time the word brat came up, it was in the sections of what subs should NOT do.

It seems that it's not just negative here on this forum. It seems common for brat to be associated with just plain bad behavior. I find it strange that many people are into this behavior, but it's almost always seen as a negative.

Well, I didn't find any links that were good enough. Too many "twue subs do this" or too much into the 24/7 slave thing. I ended up writing him a page and a half of what I want him to know about my submissive side. Ha! Can't find an article? Write your own!

I hope that the more positive comments here can be helpful to those who enjoy this kind of play. I'm still new, and already I've seen a lot of negativity among kinksters toward each other. We're all human, so this is bound to happen, but you'd think people would be a little more open. Maybe a little less judgmental, or constructive at least.

It's possible I'm just very naive.

Watch out, that's apparently a tantrum around here.

I'm actually impressed that you came up with anything useful for him. I always felt like there was SO MUCH tilt toward discussion when it comes to the bottom and practical "here's how to do it" when it comes to top. Just look at the "why are you" thread lengths and the "which are you" thread responses.

I think a lot of people who do "bratting" scenes (God I hate that description outside a very narrow definition) may fall outside the "I AM TWUE SUB" definitions and look to switch/other N/a "yes all of it please" kinds of demographics for their information share.

A lot of those people are completely used to being told how wrong they're doing it, or they've fallen out with the community over that altogether, take your pick.

 

[MeekMe]

Watch out, that's apparently a tantrum around here.

I'm actually impressed that you came up with anything useful for him. I always felt like there was SO MUCH tilt toward discussion when it comes to the bottom and practical "here's how to do it" when it comes to top. Just look at the "why are you" thread lengths and the "which are you" thread responses.

I think a lot of people who do "bratting" scenes (God I hate that description outside a very narrow definition) may fall outside the "I AM TWUE SUB" definitions and look to switch/other N/a "yes all of it please" kinds of demographics for their information share.

A lot of those people are completely used to being told how wrong they're doing it, or they've fallen out with the community over that altogether, take your pick.

Truthfully, I didn't find much. I even looked through discussions to find something. It was all just too long winded. You're right about the practical information for the top positions. It seemed simple enough to start with that.

Then when I moved on to find a well rounded perspective on the other side, it was like everyone had a right or wrong way to do it. Opinions seem to be very polar when it comes to subs. None of it was very practical, that's why I wrote my own take. I will continue looking, but I'm not hopeful.

I've come to terms with the fact that I'll always be doing it wrong.