the bottom who acts automatically: a problem? solution?

[twysted73]

I just liked what was said above. And it sparked a train of thought...if the submission is itself pleasurable then does the act matter? Once you get past the initial sense of unpleasantness to refocus on submitting to your Dom is what you're doing still distasteful? Is the true submission just that initial step of saying, 'yes, I will do this for you, no matter how uncomfortable it makes me?' or does it continue throughout the entire experience? (just thinking aloud and it's probably covered in another thread somewhere...)

Anyhoo, this thread is fascinating and I've definately learned from reading the posts. A few things: for me I don't think submission is just about doing things I'm uncomfortable with. Pushing the limits, trying something new, doing the uncomfortable can strengthen a bond, or at the extreme end it can destroy it. I honestly believe doing things that both people really love can still be D/s as long as power dynamics are involved. Is there a rule somewhere saying the sub isn't really submitting to something if they enjoy it? (even if it might be easier than submitting to something s/he really hates or finds distasteful)

I am still in the first year of discovery and while I've tried some things I'm nowhere near the experience of many on this thread. At this point if someone asked me to do something I was fundamentally opposed to doing I would say no. If I was in a headspace that made it difficult for me to guage my reaction to something and my partner used that to take me through experiences he knew I was opposed to I would feel that trust had been broken. I'm talking hard limits. Things that I do not feel safe doing, things that gross me out beyond the point that I could live with myself the next day. The bootlicking, eh, *shrugs* that isn't an act that I care for in and of itself. I'm also not morally/ethically opposed and him knowing that he was asking something that was mildly distasteful; it's almost like a test to see if the submission goes deeper than selfish desires, to see if it's sincere.

At the point that I have to distance myself into a protective shell it might be a sign that something is not working, that something is broaching a hard limit. Over time those limits might change, but I dislike the thought of doing something that I would later regret. Be embarrassed by sure. Look back on and blush most definately. But regret...I hope not...I want to look back and smile at what happened, by the limit pushed and hopefully overcome.

If I was asked for example to pleasure someone else, a complete stranger, in a public setting no less *eyebrow wiggle* and I did it as an act of submission, I would hate myself the next day for doing something that is distasteful to me and I'd be stressed about what std's he might have had and all the other ramifications of being used publicly. With a few adjustments in scenario, (concessions if you will to who I am) a really challenging or distasteful task could no doubt be found, just one that didn't ride roughshod over my morals, creating a situation where I would resent being asked to do it in the first place. I can see how for another the first example wouldn't be an issue at all and I respect that different people will come at submission from different places. For me being asked to do the above would feel like a violation given the way I was raised and the beliefs I hold.

I completely respect that what is healthy for me is going to be very different than what works for another. I've learned that certain things slip me into a happy place really quickly. If a partner wanted me fully aware, fully engaged it would take some effort on both our parts to keep me focussed on the here and now. Mia and Homburg, I definately understand about the mention of ropework and wanting to experience every second. What a conundrum: do you stay in the moment or fly off into subspace and enjoy that level of bonding? It is one of the most trusting things I think, to slip out of myself into a place of complete vulnerability where I am utterly malleable under another's hands. I forget who said it, but I really liked the example of using distance as training wheels. There's a progression there and a means of trying something out that might otherwise damage you... That said, I don't like the thought of becoming someone I can't recognize or losing core values by pushing too deep too fast. I'll probably go pretty damn far in my lifetime, taking babysteps as my brain gets a handle on new things. In any case for me it will be a mental progression full of introspection, reevaluation, and growth.

(and yeah, I know I'm a babe in the woods so please humor me lol...I know there are others out there who also are just learning or starting out which is part of the reason I wanted to post this)

If you were mine, I'd tell you to drop the "I don't know much so humor me" portions of your statements.
You have the fire within you. I've seen it. Might as well let that phrase go now because it barely fits as it is.

*chin up*

Be proud little one. I am of you.

 

[Homburg]

I am still in the first year of discovery and while I've tried some things I'm nowhere near the experience of many on this thread.

Don't wnt to burst your bubble, but just from the ATL weekend alone you've more experience than a lot of the armchair quarterbacks around here.

 

[SubKekiLee]

Sir and I have talked about this and I asked him his opinion on this and he told me I know his opinion on this matter and if I can remember what that is.. It is that I hold all the cards in this journey and I can end it at any time, so he wouldnt want me to go on "autopilot" but I have to be honest I live by one sentance when it comes to him..
Obedience is doing something because you have to do it-because someone told you to and you know it has to be done. But "true" obedience is doing it because you want to please the other person. When it's "true", your own feelings don't matter-you want to obey just to make the other person smile"

I always want to please him, He has expanded my mind, my journey and my life and I could never repay him and I enjoy every moment he takes me to places Ive never been , Ive heard him say tell me where you want to Go how you get there is my decision, but tell me where you want to go... It is amazing he takes me to heights ive never experienced He knows though If he asked me to do something unless it involved a very SERIOUS hard limit I would go there for him.. to experience it with him cause thats what he would want

I adore him and that what he would want

 

[ecstaticsub]

It goes back really to a matter of trust, on both sides. He trusts me to obey him no matter what. I trust him that if he is asking me to do something distastful it won't kill me, it won't harm me, it won't land me in jail or put me on the front page of the newspaper. He also trust me to trust him. So this allows me to go on autopilot (temorarily) if necessary really surrendering myself to him.

SKL--I agree. I obey to make my PYL proud, to give him what he wants because that's what makes him happy--the task itself and the fact that I would do anything for him, even if it means for a few seconds/minutes I have to disengage.

 

[faeriefire]

If you were mine, I'd tell you to drop the "I don't know much so humor me" portions of your statements. You have the fire within you. I've seen it. Might as well let that phrase go now because it barely fits as it is. *chin up* Be proud little one. I am of you.

*grins* Thank you for saying this. Sometimes I feel like everyone else is uberexperienced, at least the folks posting a lot. But you're right. It doesn't matter in terms of months or # of times I've played. And the inner fire is most definately present and accounted for

Don't wnt to burst your bubble, but just from the ATL weekend alone you've more experience than a lot of the armchair quarterbacks around here.

Thanks Homburg. Next to you, Viv, Sprinkles, EG, Fury I sometimes forget the vast masses of lurkers and net stars. And after all lit is an opinion board. No more discounting my own promise.

It goes back really to a matter of trust, on both sides. He trusts me to obey him no matter what. I trust him that if he is asking me to do something distastful it won't kill me, it won't harm me, it won't land me in jail or put me on the front page of the newspaper. He also trust me to trust him. So this allows me to go on autopilot (temorarily) if necessary really surrendering myself to him.

SKL--I agree. I obey to make my PYL proud, to give him what he wants because that's what makes him happy--the task itself and the fact that I would do anything for him, even if it means for a few seconds/minutes I have to disengage.

The bolded bit speaks to me. I think with someone I trusted, someone I felt had a good handle on bdsm and on me, I would be willing to try almost anything. Trusting someone that much...not necessarily easy...I guess that's the main hurdle. But I still wonder, if you're being asked to do things you feel a need to disassociate from how do you maintain trust? I have a hard time doing certain things and knowing I did them for him I think there's a good chance I'd come to resent him for asking in the first place. How do you balance the wonder of having accomplished something really hard (possibly gross and disgusting in this case) and knowing that you've done something you wouldn't have done on your own? I'm talking after you've done it. Do you say I did it for him? or do you not focus on the actual actions but more on the fact that you earned his respect by following the orders and accomplishing the task?

 

[ecstaticsub]

Remember that building trust takes time. Building a D/s relationship is a process. Maybe this is why I could never bottom to someone. I need to take that time to build that trust and get that emotional conection. I am in a LDR. I didn't really realize it until a year or so into the relationship but everything that he had me do was to learn more about me--how I thought, how I reacted to certain things, what I hesitated doing, what I could do immediately. I had to write out all fantasies, all my past sexual experiences, all my fears, all my most exciting experiences. It still goes on now, but he knows me truly as much if not more than I know myself.

From the very beginning he carefully tested my trust in him. I hesitated to use the word "test", but right now I can't think of a better word. The word test seems to bring out negative feelings, but it wasn't/isn't negative in any way.

The first time we met in person was 24 hours of an experience including things I had never done in the past and never thought I actually would ever do in reality (but I had fantasized about) There were times that I had to disengage for a short period. But when the aftercare part came along and it was just he and I alone in each others arms I felt so safe. He was my safe place. When I obeyed him without hesitation or question everything was okay.

That is just an example but with each activity ( I really don't like the word test) I survived, had no resentment and instead felt even closer to him. He did keep me safe, again and again.

This sort of got off tract of your questions--but no I didn't focus on that I did this for him, I didn't focus on the actual actions, I didn't focus on that I earned his respect. At the end of each "activity' we always have about 5-6 hours of awesome tantric sex. That is what I focus on. The trading of energy between our two souls and bodies. The activity before hand prepared me for the surrender and opening up that makes the sex incredible.

The one time that I had 2nd thoughts the next day he helped me work through it to make it ok. I didn't have regrets, I was just worried that he would think I was too slutty and lose repect in a woman who would do what i did. Of course, he answered that he wouldn't have asked me if he wouldn't love me even more after.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Misidentified Disengagement

i have tried to read everything but this may have been covered already. Have we talked about when a bottom perhaps appears disengaged because what the Top is having them do is just not having much effect?

i personally have a lot of performance anxiety and often feel pressure from myself to "act" as if an activity is having more effect because i want to please my Top when inwardly i may feel nothing much at all about it. So i have this inward war about whether i should be honest and act as unmoved and disengaged as i feel or should i try and please my Top which is what i am there for and act as if i feel something. Also throwing in that ocassionally acting like you feel something can help you feel it but its hit or miss. At the end of scene talk (if there is one) i could get caught on this if i have to admit i wasn't all that into it but was trying to be by acting like i was.

i may also disengage as a way to communicate. A Top may have me do x just as a test to see what affect it will have on me. i don't say "this has no effect" because i find lots of Tops just don't believe you or it seems rude or it just isn't appropriate to speak. Rather than being disobedient i do the task but in a more disengaged way without appearing disrespectful or bored. OKAY... i admit that when i am really on my game this does not happen as much because i will try to find ways to do better than what they asked and surprise them. It still may not have the effect they want but my extra effort\creativity will please them and hopefully i can still communicate that the task didn't do much for me personally. One of the issues i have is my overacheiving can work against me in some ways to make it appear that i am "into" lots of things i'm really not, i'm just "willing".

On the other side of this sometimes the auto pilot is automatic in itself for me and i CANT turn it off. This happened the first time i drank urine. i kept trying to feel something about it; to feel degraded; anything but i still felt dissociated. i'm thinking in my head "is this supposed to be erotic?"; "i thought it would taste worse"; "glad i drank a lot of water today"; "i wonder how much he is going to make me drink"

i guess some of us are just hard bottoms to really get to and auto pilot is the best we have to offer sometimes. i generally WANT to feel engaged but its often just not there. For me personally, a lot of the limit pushing stuff for many bottoms does not really work and its the seemingly easy things that do. The big stuff can just be too unreal for me to get my head around and really experience the full force.

 

[ataxia.girl]

ataxia: interesting points regarding wanting to in an "automatic" or robotic state! your postings are quite compelling. perhaps willingness to be made a 'sex doll' who acts robotically is an extreme manifestation of submission, not its contrary (rebellion through distancing).

i definitely don't feel "robotic" its the ultimate form of submission but it may be the ultimate form a given bottom can give on a given day doing a given task

i would love to be totally engaged in every task i ever performed and be able to perform every task requested of me but at least for me that is not a realistic goal and i would venture to guess it isn't realistic for most. Some will choose to perform on auto pilot those tasks they are not able to stay engaged with and some will make those tasks a hard limit and refuse to perform them.

i understand we are talking more of the gray area of when i could engage but choose not to. i've done this, i don't do it that often because i feel it is a waste of everyone's time but occasionally if i'm just not in the mood to do x i will do it automatically just to have it over with so that maybe we can do y. y in this case is never as sweet.

i think it all comes down to WHY is the bottom disengaging. Is it because it is too difficult\distasteful or is there another reason. Perhaps the reason they are disengaging is just that the task isn't very engaging. If as the Top you just want it performed and don't care about the bottom's thought process then great, if you are wanting the bottom to "feel" something and they just don't this is where i start to have a problem. i will start getting really rebellious if i feel like a Top is trying to tell me what\how or even if to feel about something they are asking me to do. They can tell me what to think about and maybe what to say but not how to feel.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Sorry for the post after post here...

On further reflection i think perhaps there is another mode that is being missed that is not quite "auto pilot". i am very interested in ageplay although do not actually engage in it fully much at all for lack of interested Tops in that sort of thing but in spite of that i do seem to go into what i would consider to be little girl forms of what may appear to be "disengagement". i think they could be compared to little kid tasting dirt or paste modes of behaivor. i don't seem to necessarily feel the stigma of what i'm being asked to do and the emotional reaction is simply absent. i sometimes get anxiety about this as i feel i should feel some sort of emotional\mental reaction especially if i know the Top is looking for that type of reaction.

 

[Pure]

note to ataxia,

fine postings!

there are indeed many various of "automatic" states. some have a degree of voluntariness; some do not.

also related are 'distanced' states, some of which are cocooned, and some of which are beset with thoughts ranging from "is this supposed to be erotic" to "what the fuck is the master thinking this is going to accomplish?"

the master can intuit many of them, or can benefit from being told, either at the time, or after. 'can benefit' meaning 'can find a use for, in the continuing program of loving subjection.'

apart from the idea of testing--which i'm not saying is unfair-- is there a reason i, when topping, might induce a distanced and NON erotic state in the bottoming one? the obvious answer might be, that MY state might be erotic, pleasureful, etc. my pleasure as top should not--every single time-- be held hostage to "this doesn't do anything for ME" or even "i have to distance myself, if i'm to continue"; whether or not these statements are uttered or the sentiments simply implied.

such a case might be exceptional, because clearly my pleasure in topping is often incited by the signs of pleasure in the bottom, esp when that her pleasure is induced by her subjection.

what might i, as a bottom gain from falling into a distanced, NON erotic state? (let us assume, here, ftsoa, that there are no actual negative feelings.) perhaps trust, in the end. a loving top, worthy of trust, will at some point reach out to me, and there's joy when i'm able to reconnect to what's always been there. when one is bottom, one can be in the desert for a time --even though not test was actually intended-- provide[d] that there's an an accurate expectation--based in my trust-- that one will eventually arrive at a watering spot.

 

[ataxia.girl]

fine postings!

gah... Thank You

also related are 'distanced' states, some of which are cocooned, and some of which are beset with thoughts ranging from "is this supposed to be erotic" to "what the fuck is the master thinking this is going to accomplish?"

i have a couple of Tops that i play with occasionally where this is really not an issue. They ask me to do things that if another Top asked i would most certainly have the mental dialog going on wondering how i was supposed to be thinking\feeling\reacting but in the case with these few i simply do not have to wonder. They are going to enjoy themselves no matter how i react. It isn't that they have no interest whatsoever how i react its just that they are going to enjoy whatever i do for them regardless of my reaction. My reaction is a secondary "interesting" amusement.

i frankly LOVE to play with these guys because i feel free from the pressure to feel something and just enjoy serving them. In the process of doing this i quite often DO feel something. These are extremely confident Tops who have plenty of RL experience and are simply allowing\requesting me to entertain\serve them for a diversion.

the master can intuit many of them, or can benefit from being told, either at the time, or after. 'can benefit' meaning 'can find a use for, in the continuing program of loving subjection.'

apart from the idea of testing--which i'm not saying is unfair-- is there a reason i, when topping, might induce a distanced and NON erotic state in the bottoming one? the obvious answer might be, that MY state might be erotic, pleasureful, etc. my pleasure as top should not--every single time-- be held hostage to "this doesn't do anything for ME" or even "i have to distance myself, if i'm to continue"; whether or not these statements are uttered or the sentiments simply implied.

i don't have any ideas as to WHY a Top my want to induce a distanced state but i do know that just as a Top may not like to be held hostage to always having the bottom distance in order to obey neither do i, as bottom, like to be held hostage to always having to have an intense emotional or erotic reaction to every task as if it is MY responsibility to do so in order to please.

i think we have to talk about how voluntary and predictable emotional\erotic reactions really are.

such a case might be exceptional, because clearly my pleasure in topping is often incited by the signs of pleasure in the bottom, esp when that her pleasure is induced by her subjection.

i have been thinking about this quite a bit because i play with Tops who are often quite fixated on my pleasure, or at least outward signs i am experiencing pleasure. Sometimes it seems someone with less experience will want me to show pleasure in a specific way, in the way they expect and at the intensity they desire. Because i am in fact a person\subject, and not a robot\object, despite playing one on TV, i cannot actually do this and in fact the more i try the less it works. i want to please so i may try to feel things if i sense the expectation but more and more when it comes to the realm of emotional\erotic reaction to a given activity i believe it is up to the Top to PULL that reaction out versus the bottom to try and push it out. i also think it is WAY more fun on both sides if a Top is more interested in just seeing what reaction comes out when they do x rather than constantly battling to get a particular reaction and feeling like someone has failed if it is not achieved.

What i CAN do as bottom is be willing and ready to surrender those emotional\erotic reactions and not actively suppress them. This is where i try to be, and with a Top i feel very safe and comfortable with i am able to. The anxiety to react as they want is not there and so i am free to react very genuinely. If your ego cannot handle my lack of reaction or perceived distance you are not a very good Dominant IMHO.

what might i, as a bottom gain from falling into a distanced, NON erotic state? (let us assume, here, ftsoa, that there are no actual negative feelings.) perhaps trust, in the end. a loving top, worthy of trust, will at some point reach out to me, and there's joy when i'm able to reconnect to what's always been there. when one is bottom, one can be in the desert for a time --even though not test was actually intended-- provide that there's an an accurate expectation--based in my trust-- that one will eventually arrive at a watering spot.

i could turn this around actually. ftsao lets assume i as bottom have no negative feelings and am a not "distanced" but not having an intense reaction to a task. In the absence of anxious mental dialog "what is he thinking", "is this supposed to be erotic" the Top is free to simply enjoy having done what he would like to have done and looking at what he would like to look at. He can also be freed from the mental dialog "is she having a good time?", "is she bored?"

With a Top i trust i don't know that i would ever really feel "in the desert" in the absense of truly negative feelings. If i am just in a "barely distanced" state but still being enjoyed by the Top and still pleasing there can almost be an undercurrent of connection there so that when it ends there is very little watering to do.

 

[Pure]

comments

Originally Posted by Pure
//such a case might be exceptional, because clearly my pleasure in topping is often incited by the signs of pleasure in the bottom, esp when that her pleasure is induced by her subjection. //

i have been thinking about this quite a bit because i play with Tops who are often quite fixated on my pleasure, or at least outward signs i am experiencing pleasure. Sometimes it seems someone with less experience will want me to show pleasure in a specific way, in the way they expect and at the intensity they desire. Because i am in fact a person\subject, and not a robot\object, despite playing one on TV, i cannot actually do this and in fact the more i try the less it works.

i want to please so i may try to feel things if i sense the expectation but more and more when it comes to the realm of emotional\erotic reaction to a given activity i believe it is up to the Top to PULL that reaction out versus the bottom to try and push it out. i also think it is WAY more fun on both sides if a Top is more interested in just seeing what reaction comes out when they do x rather than constantly battling to get a particular reaction and feeling like someone has failed if it is not achieved.

What i CAN do as bottom is be willing and ready to surrender those emotional\erotic reactions and not actively suppress them. This is where i try to be, and with a Top i feel very safe and comfortable with i am able to. The anxiety to react as they want is not there and so i am free to react very genuinely. If your ego cannot handle my lack of reaction or perceived distance you are not a very good Dominant IMHO.

pure: this makes a lot of sense. the top with a set agenda for a reaction is like the clumsy bf who insists that his gf come in the manner of a porn starlet. i like the idea you suggest. if i'm topping, i do well be aware of a the variety of possible reactions. then i can work with them. if i'l looking for a sexual reaction, and don't get one, some other approach can be tried.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure
//what might i, as a bottom gain from falling into a distanced, NON erotic state? (let us assume, here, ftsoa, that there are no actual negative feelings.) perhaps trust, in the end. a loving top, worthy of trust, will at some point reach out to me, and there's joy when i'm able to reconnect to what's always been there. when one is bottom, one can be in the desert for a time --even though not test was actually intended-- provide that there's an an accurate expectation--based in my trust-- that one will eventually arrive at a watering spot. //

i could turn this around actually. ftsao lets assume i as bottom have no negative feelings and am a not "distanced" but not having an intense reaction to a task. In the absence of anxious mental dialog "what is he thinking", "is this supposed to be erotic" the Top is free to simply enjoy having done what he would like to have done and looking at what he would like to look at. He can also be freed from the mental dialog "is she having a good time?", "is she bored?"

With a Top i trust i don't know that i would ever really feel "in the desert" in the absense of truly negative feelings. If i am just in a "barely distanced" state but still being enjoyed by the Top and still pleasing there can almost be an undercurrent of connection there so that when it ends there is very little watering to do.

i see this point. as bottom, it's best if i don't second guess myself. "does the top want this?" etc.

i like the phrase 'undercurrent of connection.' i think i would say, as bottom and 'in the desert' ( a desolate place), there is still trust, and 'undercurrent' so to say. as to how much 'watering', i.e. aftercare, that is another matter.

one issue that's related to this thread is what i think of as a process view of topping or bottoming. i don't think "here's *a bottom* and i'm going to do this." it's more like "lets see what this process is. " perhaps you hinted at this above, in terms of watching what happens.
similarly, as bottom, the issue isn't "doing x" it's some kind of process of subjection. doing x is a means.

i think static views are counterproductive: "this is what i am. i am bottom. i play this way." there is perhaps more basis for some labels, e.g. 'straight', but even that is confining, e.g. a "straight" doesn't even get turned on by the same sex. with labels related to power/authority/imposition i think the problem is greater. a bottom or slave should NOT {correction}be thought of as a 'readymade thing.' i don't think i can be this 'already achieved thing.' a 'bottom' or 'slave' or 'pet' is going through a process--we might say it's subjection or even 'objectification'. towards that goal, i am, following the means directed by the top, say, obeying spedific orders. that shapes me. it's ongoing. i suppose there may be some who say or think or believe "i'm there. the perfect slave/subject." it doesn't fit me.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Interesting bump...

 

[switchbitch]

If i wanted a blow up doll I'd buy one.

The whole reason for Dominating (for me atleast) is the connection, the interraction and the responses.

These are my rewards for my efforts.
My motivations for putting myself & her through so much.

How else will we grow? How else can we learn?

I'd rather her not do anything at all if my orders are met with disconnect.


Fuck that

I SO agree from both sides of the equation whether I am submitting or dominating, automatic pilot or zoning out is my idea of failure.
As for the solution, I don't think there is just one I think there are many and it needs to be tailored to the circumstance, but in all cases I would expect play/activity to stop or change. For instance if a submissive was sucking on my strap on and went into automatic mode demanding their eyes on mine as I force a slow gagging can usually bring them back on track. But it's different for everybody, in some cases this would merely make the submissive use my eyes to focus on for avoidance of what they are doing. Everybody's different, and everyone's reactions are different. I find very little in BDSM to be one size fits all. Thank goodness because I love all the multi-flavours of it.

 

[eastern sun]

This is a great thread, with the topic approached already from so many different angles. Thank you for bringing it back for us to read, Catalina.

From my perspective, automatic behavior on the part of the pyl can be exactly right or exactly wrong depending on the circumstances.

We start out with this roadmap that gives us a few lines to follow, but once you actually get out on that road and start moving, a very rich and beautiful landscape is revealed with lots of moments that aren't included on the map and may not fit into a neat pattern . . . where sometimes it is absolutely necessary for me to overcome my desire to disconnect from what I'm doing and discover what it actually means to be fully there, naked and present to the reality of what I'm experiencing. And where sometimes it is absolutely necessary for me to become an automaton, a fleshy robot, a warm wet fucktoy.

I think it's what Pure was getting at in his last post when he says

one issue that's related to this thread is what i think of as a process view of topping or bottoming. i don't think "here's *a bottom* and i'm going to do this." it's more like "lets see what this process is." similarly, as bottom, the issue isn't "doing x" it's some kind of process of subjection. doing x is a means.

. . . a 'bottom' or 'slave' or 'pet' is going through a process--we might say it's subjection or even 'objectification'. towards that goal, i am, following the means directed by the top, say, obeying specific orders. that shapes me. it's ongoing.

The hardest part is letting go of the outcome. Letting go of the idea of success and failure. And just experiencing the ride.