the bottom who acts automatically: a problem? solution?

[Homburg]

Yes.

I think you're caught in a paradox.

A person in an automatic mode cannot emote or affect fair indication of being in that mode.

There are varying levels of this. If the bottom has snapped into automaton mode due to some prior-trauma-induced defensive mechanism, I can understand why the bottom would not be able to emote. This does not account for all cases. As mentioned, sometimes it is resentment, lack of engagement, etc. In those cases, I would prefer acknowledgement.

 

[SavannahMann]

Domination and Submision are a journey.

Self Discovery, which is never truly done, is the goal. The funny thing is, each step you take on the journey, takes you towards the goal, and when you make one discovery, you find another one on the horizon that is another journey in itself.

Ok, I have Enya playing now. Seriously for a moment. Part of the journey has to be an examination of your reaction to the order. Do you zone out because you dislike that particular action? What about it bothers you, and why does your Dom want you to do it? If like the exampled, licking of the feet, it is intended to demonstrate submissiveness, and worship of the dominant. Do you feel that the Dominant is deserving of such love and worship? Is the symbolic act objectionable, or the physical?

Look at the issue from every angle, and if you have a loving Dom, talk with them about it until you've completed the journey of discovery for that issue. It may be that your Dom decides after the discussion to change your symbolic worship and love to placing your head upon their shoe, or a brief kiss of the foot, instead of licking. The symbolic act remains, yet the objectionable specific of licking the foot is gone. Perhaps you'll journey back to licking the feet, perhaps not. Sometimes the best path to a specific goal is not straight up the middle, but a more leisurely winding path that approaches the goal from another direction.

Of course, that's my opinion, and like Dennis Miller says, I could be wrong.

 

[Marquis]

OSG, I was originally going to put you in to the last multi-quote, but I am giving you your own post here. What I am about to say is controversial, but luckily I am sure there are many who will disagree.

hmm, thought-provoking topic you've raised here Pure. while i can certainly understand your point from the Top/Dominant perspective, of wanting a submissive to always be fully aware and engaged while serving, it must also be taken into consideration that for some submissives going on "auto-pilot" is a deeply ingrained self-defense mechanism.

i tend to shift instantly into that mode when a particular task or situation is very emotionally difficult or painful. it is something i began doing as a child when i was sexually abused. it protected me (to an extent) then, and it protects me now. if i did not have this ability, if i did not zone out during these moments, then i would truly be incapable of bearing such a thing and it would not be long before mentally and emotionally i'd be irreparably broken.

so if you had such a submissive...one who had been so damaged through various past traumas and whatnot that they sincerely could not handle always being 100% there....really what would you prefer? that they learn how to prevent themselves from going into that little psychological safespace only to leave you with a shell of a person?

Well, I think the first thing you need to do is stop thinking of yourself as damaged. Calling yourself damaged leads to only one of two conclusions, you either need to be "fixed" or you deserve to think lowly of yourself.

I don't think either of those things are true, and certainly not because you were sexually abused.

It sounds to me that you are afraid that you are a shell of a person, and I will tell you that that is a common fear that people experience. I have experienced it many times myself and in many ways it is probably my greatest fear, a fear that I fear more than death, but I have yet to succumb.

it's true that there are many different types of distant states. i think that it's important for the Dominant (assuming this is a significant relationship and not a casual encounter) to be able to recognize when his submissive is in such a state and to recognize the difference between a distance rooted in resentment, depression, subspace, or whatever else. that way it can be determined whether or not such a state is positive or negative (in regards to serving the Dominant's needs).

as far as letting one's Master know directly that one is just not here, the thing about being in such a state, especially if like me it's brought about by traumatic situations and is wrapped around despair and depression, it may not be possible to articulate such a thing. also it may not even be appropriate in the situation.

for example, if i am serving another man who is very frightening, hurting me physically and emotionally a great deal, and i start feeling sorry for myself thinking about how this will not be the last time i will be in such a situation and wondering why it all has to be so hard, and on and on....that is about the time the wall comes up and a part of me checks out. but to say or do anything about this to my Master in the moment, even if he is inches away, would just be unthinkable. it would be rude to the other i'm serving, and embarassing to my Master. instead i zone out and continue serving to the absolute best of my abilities, without hesitation or complaint. being distant does not hinder me from listening or being obedient, it just keeps me from completely falling apart and not being able to serve the way a slave should.

My personal feeling is that you are way too heavily focused on assigning an origin to the emotions you're experiencing. I think we have a tendency to relate feelings to other times we've experienced those feelings, but I don't the correlation necessitates causation.

My mother died under dubious circumstances when I was 17 years old. Beyond being my caretaker, best friend and confidant; she was the glue that held together my relationship with various other people in my life, my father, my step-father, my sisters, my extended family. When she died, I lost everyone. Everything.

These days, when I am most depressed, I think about seeing her bloated, mechanized corpse lying on white hospital sheets, surrounded by bawling mourners who wouldn't have given her a dollar for bus fare.

Sometimes I think there is no returning from that event, but then I begin to take a strange comfort in remembering that I was able to overcome these same emotions the last time I experienced them. That despite whatever gruesome demons I may confront, there is a force within me that knows no equal.

Masters are curious creatures. I remember a day when I walked out on to my balcony to be with my girl and smiled, my best smile. She looked at me lovingly, but turned towards the greater beauty of the rising sun. Had I the power, I would've blotted out the sun, for her.

 

[Homburg]

Masters are curious creatures. I remember a day when I walked out on to my balcony to be with my girl and smiled, my best smile. She looked at me lovingly, but turned towards the greater beauty of the rising sun. Had I the power, I would've blotted out the sun, for her.

This is a feeling I know well.

 

[intothewoods]

My mother died under dubious circumstances when I was 17 years old. Beyond being my caretaker, best friend and confidant; she was the glue that held together my relationship with various other people in my life, my father, my step-father, my sisters, my extended family. When she died, I lost everyone. Everything.

These days, when I am most depressed, I think about seeing her bloated, mechanized corpse lying on white hospital sheets, surrounded by bawling mourners who wouldn't have given her a dollar for bus fare.

Sometimes I think there is no returning from that event, but then I begin to take a strange comfort in remembering that I was able to overcome these same emotions the last time I experienced them. That despite whatever gruesome demons I may confront, there is a force within me that knows no equal.

Masters are curious creatures. I remember a day when I walked out on to my balcony to be with my girl and smiled, my best smile. She looked at me lovingly, but turned towards the greater beauty of the rising sun. Had I the power, I would've blotted out the sun, for her.

Jesus, Marquis. How awful!

 

[Netzach]

Is it wrong that the closeness of someone in this state to a blank robotic drone is fucking HOT to me?
Yes, yes it is. Thanks, carry on...

 

[twysted73]

Is it wrong that the closeness of someone in this state to a blank robotic drone is fucking HOT to me?
Yes, yes it is. Thanks, carry on...

Netz, personal Q..so pass is an option.

Does emotional attachemnt either by you or from another make you uncomfortable in any way?

Your last comment made me wonder.

 

[Netzach]

Netz, personal Q..so pass is an option.

Does emotional attachemnt either by you or from another make you uncomfortable in any way?

Your last comment made me wonder.

Depends who they are. Emotional attachment from random strangers is uncool. And yes, I know the feeling.

Emotional attachment from people who have established appropriate intimacy, I don't have a problem with.

How do you conclude that my fantasy of having a robot means I have emotional attachment issues? No one's scrutinizing what kind of person the guy who likes to see girls cry is.

What's especially erotic to me about this kind of tabula rasa "I'm not there but I am" state is in theory, anyway, you could start dumping all kinds of things in - it seems like a trance-state, super subliminally rich.

 

[twysted73]

Depends who they are. Emotional attachment from random strangers is uncool. And yes, I know the feeling.

Emotional attachment from people who have established appropriate intimacy, I don't have a problem with.

How do you conclude that my fantasy of having a robot means I have emotional attachment issues? No one's scrutinizing what kind of person the guy who likes to see girls cry is.

What's especially erotic to me about this kind of tabula rasa "I'm not there but I am" state is in theory, anyway, you could start dumping all kinds of things in - it seems like a trance-state, super subliminally rich.

No harm meant. I observe people. It's something I've done since I was a teenager.

And the more often I see someone (as well as more facets of them) the clearer a picture I form of them in my mind.
If there comes a time when a perceived item is presented and either it doesn't fit or I don't understand how it fits, I stop and ask.

You're interesting so I study you.
*shrugs*
Not many people catch my attention.

 

[bridgeburner]

Marquis,

Nah, I know you're not giving me shit. Let me see if I can be a little more clear --- or maybe just not muddy the waters after I've been clear.

As I said, it's not the what, it's the why.

Everyone uses distancing techniques, but there is a difference between distancing from something uncomfortable but WANTED and something uncomfortable, unwanted and from which you feel you have either no right or no power to escape or even express the desire to.

 

[Homburg]

Is it wrong that the closeness of someone in this state to a blank robotic drone is fucking HOT to me?
Yes, yes it is. Thanks, carry on...

*shrug* I don't think so. I dislike the state myself, but plenty of people are into that robot/doll thing.

 

[bridgeburner]

Is it wrong that the closeness of someone in this state to a blank robotic drone is fucking HOT to me?
Yes, yes it is. Thanks, carry on...

Of course it is. If it wasn't wrong it wouldn't be nearly as hot. The wrongness is the whole point for some folks. While I'm more just into what I'm into and a lot of it happens to be wrong, I'm still completely opposed to making everything everywhere a-okay. If there aren't any taboos there just isn't any fun.

Pardon me while I stroke my inner Catholic.

 

[ataxia.girl]

*shrug* I don't think so. I dislike the state myself, but plenty of people are into that robot/doll thing.

i sooo want to be a blow up sex doll sometimes. One with voice recognition that does stuff when certain words are spoken and maybe i could have some little strings that make me say all the things you like when you pull them.

It is both repulsive and offensive to think of being treated this way and yet in a way it is also affirming. i mean plenty of guys have treated me more or less just that way. The difference being they want to keep the illusion that i am engaged. i luv the idea of a scene where they do not get to tell themselves i'm all hot and bothered about the weird stuff they want me to do\say. And yeah... i also like being "made" to do weird ass stuff without having to pretend i find it objectionable or hot.

Sometimes its nice to just have your service accepted like that without all the pressure to "feel" something about it.

 

[SavannahMann]

Yet another view of submission

i sooo want to be a blow up sex doll sometimes. One with voice recognition that does stuff when certain words are spoken and maybe i could have some little strings that make me say all the things you like when you pull them.

It is both repulsive and offensive to think of being treated this way and yet in a way it is also affirming. i mean plenty of guys have treated me more or less just that way. The difference being they want to keep the illusion that i am engaged. i luv the idea of a scene where they do not get to tell themselves i'm all hot and bothered about the weird stuff they want me to do\say. And yeah... i also like being "made" to do weird ass stuff without having to pretend i find it objectionable or hot.

Sometimes its nice to just have your service accepted like that without all the pressure to "feel" something about it.

There are times when autonomic response is actually a good thing. Sometimes you just can't love doing the same thing for the thousandth time. That is not a bad thing, and certainly understandable. Let's say I run daily, it's part of my routine, part of who I am. Some days, I'm just going through the motions, because something else is on my mind, or I'm just not in the mood to think of running as the end all be all of my existence. The next week, I really enjoy my morning run, perhaps the weather, a scene that I viewed jogging by, something. We used to call this bio-rhythm until we figured out it was a bunch of BS. Some days, you just feel better than other days doing the same thing. You're just up, and you are sparkling.

As for feeling something or not, as desired by your Dom. That's part of the scenes that you and the Dom are working on, and in. Sometimes a Dom wants to explore the idea of objectionable, and other times of the inner slut so to speak. Sometimes your feedback is programed, as in "I want you to say this." Other times, the Dom is really trying to understand your feelings. "How did that make you feel?"

The lifestyle depends a great deal upon honesty, and understanding. Of course, whips and chains just show how honestly understanding we are. LOL.

 

[twysted73]

i sooo want to be a blow up sex doll sometimes. One with voice recognition that does stuff when certain words are spoken and maybe i could have some little strings that make me say all the things you like when you pull them.

It is both repulsive and offensive to think of being treated this way and yet in a way it is also affirming. i mean plenty of guys have treated me more or less just that way. The difference being they want to keep the illusion that i am engaged. i luv the idea of a scene where they do not get to tell themselves i'm all hot and bothered about the weird stuff they want me to do\say. And yeah... i also like being "made" to do weird ass stuff without having to pretend i find it objectionable or hot.

Sometimes its nice to just have your service accepted like that without all the pressure to "feel" something about it.

Hmm..quite an eye opener.
Interesting perspective.
Knowing the other wishes the mindset to be there.
This could be fun.

 

[Pure]

ataxia girl and savannah man

ataxia: interesting points regarding wanting to in an "automatic" or robotic state! your postings are quite compelling. perhaps willingness to be made a 'sex doll' who acts robotically is an extreme manifestation of submission, not its contrary (rebellion through distancing).

savannah: good points about the top's possible desire to have some instructions carried out unthinkingly, just as we do certain chores that way, such as brushing teeth.

such a dom is looking for a pattern of actions.

however, a dom, as you say, may address 'the inner slut" and consider feelings.

clearly a blending may be possible. requiring some actions consistent with automatism, and others that are to be carried out with feeling and engagment.

i also see your point of sometimes the top just wanting the words said, "i am a slut." depite inward protest, saying that affects the bottom, esp, if documented, recorded, witnessed, seen in a mirror, etc.

my basic point is simply that "submission", "surrender", "subjection" and the like, really involve addressing and (a process of) subduing something that is inner: the thoughts, feelings, and impulses. IOW, it could be asked, "have you really subjected someone to perform act X, if they do it robotically?"

a further point is that subjection, in my view is a continuing process. conformity of action, so to say, is too easy. the inner landscape is relevant because, for almost all people, contrary thoughts and feelings arise; or simply 'self pity' (why me?). the top with comprehensive goals is going to be evoking these--*to a moderate degree*, i.e. short of inducing automatism,--- and dealing with them continuously.

at the same time, there is much to be said for gradually approaching subjection through avenues that link the objectionable with the pleasant, e.g. creating degrading circumstances and inducting orgasm.

with this in mind, the approach of assigning a task so objectionable as to cause inner rebellion and 'going dead inside' is counterproductive to most goals i can imagine a top having, unless it's the 'bare act,' so to say. having her boots licked. i suppose, if the top wants a robot, that's the way to go.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I see a huge difference between being a "robot" and not being 100% engaged when ordered to do something totally objectionable.

Being a robot there is no mental involvement at all. It's like washing dishes or other activies that you have done so many time that you can daydream or what ever and still get it done.

I'm in a LDR so I may be looking at this differently than others. But once I step over the threashold into the hotel room when Daddy and I get together I will do whatever he wants whether pleasant or objectional. It's the whole experience that is important. I don't see anything "wrong" or negative about being told to do something that might trigger a need to go into auto-pilot. It is not as if it is a permanent or long term mindset. It is a maybe a 5 minute brain re-adjustment to help me complete the task. There is nothing robitic about it. My mind is not blank it is not 100 % on the task, but 100% on obeying Daddy.

Plus it really gets us both super hot.

 

[Pure]

hi ecstatic

ES I see a huge difference between being a "robot" and not being 100% engaged when ordered to do something totally objectionable.

i agree. but i'd like to hear from you about what, if anything your top does, if he finds you "not 100% engaged." some posters argue that that might be the state desired by the top, and i can imagine it being so. other posters [see savannahman, just above], including tops, at least want to engage the bottom's lack of engagement, at very least talk about, possibly get past it, etc. "engaging disengagement" sounds paradoxical, and obviously it depends on the bottom's decision to disclose. of course there may be a standing or 'blanket' order to disclose feelings, or at least to disclose if asked.

 

[incubus_dark]

Usually, when a particular scene or event involves just my sub and I, I want complete engagement, and I’ve occasionally punished by cessation of attention if I don’t get it. This isn’t very common though, and tends to be related to other factors from the outside world intruding upon us.

However, when third parties are involved she tends to flip between the automaton and the fully involved super slut commonly, as has been pointed out by many of you, depending on the degree of humiliation, degradation and perversion involved. The automaton is more likely to surface if the situation challenges her self image.

I don’t always discourage this, partly because as Netz points out, it can be fun to play with an automaton; you can occasionally go just that bit further with a robot. However, the other reason to let her run through some things on autopilot is for the joy of making her confront them later. No matter how much she might have disassociated from any given event, she experienced it and she retains the memories of it. In a more intimate setting it can be pure joy to lovingly and gently bring these events up, and make her relive them. In this situation she can’t dissociate from the events she has experienced and actions she has performed, and she must perforc, feel the full burden of her humiliation, while at the same time knowing that she is momentarily safe and protected.

This has the benefit of allowing me to further enjoy her degradation, whilst reinforcing to her that even in her ultimate humiliation and depravity, she is cherished and accepted. In turn, this has the flow on effect of allowing her to be mentally and emotionally engaged in future acts of a similar nature that she may be required to perform and too, of moving the boundaries just that little bit further forward, downward, or whatever vector one might like to arbitrarily assign as the direction of perversion. As such, the reliving, accepting and enjoying of these events also gives me a mechanism to force her to become instrumental in the escalation of her own depravity.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Pure--

I'm sorry but I don't quite understand what you are asking me?

 

[Pure]

how does your top deal with disengagement?

does he, so to say 'engage' it? work with it?

is there a 'standing order' to disclose, or is the plan that you keep your inner state to yourself?

 

[Anne_Prospere]

autopilot provides me with a set of training wheels I can use to push past my own boundaries.

There will be voices screaming in my head. "OH GOD I DO NOT WANT TO DO THIS PLEASE. HOW CAN I GET OUT OF THIS, WHY DOES THIS SICK MOTHERFUCKER MAKE ME DO SHIT LIKE THIS?? I SHOULD JUST SAFEWORD..."

Then there is another gang of voices from the wrong side of the cerebellum saying "dude, dont safeword. You're soft if you safeword. Just do it, you'll be so bad ass if you just suck it up and do it. You have to try everything at least once."

If the panicked voices overwhelm the badass voices, the situation is worth it, I'll go automated.

This allows me to 1)see how bad it really is 2)learn through experience my own ability to overcome my inner party pooper and 3) give Daddy what he wants.

I can then evaluate the impact the event had on me, I've experimented and now I can compartmentalize the data for the next time, and maybe after a couple times on autopilot, I can let myself get fully invested in this new, previously horrible activity.

In the past, I've gone automatic on watersports. I would just shut off the gag reflex and open wide.
This allowed me and my Master to have a really intimate experience with it later on down the road.

I say, use automation as the tool it can be.

 

[ecstaticsub]

autopilot provides me with a set of training wheels I can use to push past my own boundaries.

There will be voices screaming in my head. "OH GOD I DO NOT WANT TO DO THIS PLEASE. HOW CAN I GET OUT OF THIS, WHY DOES THIS SICK MOTHERFUCKER MAKE ME DO SHIT LIKE THIS?? I SHOULD JUST SAFEWORD..."

Then there is another gang of voices from the wrong side of the cerebellum saying "dude, dont safeword. You're soft if you safeword. Just do it, you'll be so bad ass if you just suck it up and do it. You have to try everything at least once."

If the panicked voices overwhelm the badass voices, the situation is worth it, I'll go automated.

This allows me to 1)see how bad it really is 2)learn through experience my own ability to overcome my inner party pooper and 3) give Daddy what he wants.

I can then evaluate the impact the event had on me, I've experimented and now I can compartmentalize the data for the next time, and maybe after a couple times on autopilot, I can let myself get fully invested in this new, previously horrible activity.

In the past, I've gone automatic on watersports. I would just shut off the gag reflex and open wide.
This allowed me and my Master to have a really intimate experience with it later on down the road.

I say, use automation as the tool it can be.

Thank you! You said exactly what I have been trying to say, but so much better. I agree completely.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Pure--

I was pretty sure I knew what his answer to your questions would be, but just to be certain I asked him.

He said he as long as I obeyed, did as I was told he didn't care where my mind was.

As far as me telling him if I do disengage, that isn't necessary. He would know. He is observant enough that he would pick up on it easily. But again, the important part is that I get the task done.

I hope that answered your questions?

 

[faeriefire]

Ok, I am becoming a little confused here. If a submissive is told to do a task that is a little distasteful, a little dirty, out of their comfort zone...isn't that pretty normal situation in a submissive's life? It's quite understandable for some to have the need to step out of themselves in order to get themselves started doing it. Girdle their loins whatever. But once they begin shouldn't they be able to get past that and re-engage themselves?
The strong desire to please, to serve, to obey... even if it's distasteful, is whats submitting is all about isn't it? In my view if you are not fully mentally and emotionally engaged in the act, then you are not really submitting. You are not giving it all up because your not all there. You are only submitting your body, not your mind.

I just liked what was said above. And it sparked a train of thought...if the submission is itself pleasurable then does the act matter? Once you get past the initial sense of unpleasantness to refocus on submitting to your Dom is what you're doing still distasteful? Is the true submission just that initial step of saying, 'yes, I will do this for you, no matter how uncomfortable it makes me?' or does it continue throughout the entire experience? (just thinking aloud and it's probably covered in another thread somewhere...)

Anyhoo, this thread is fascinating and I've definately learned from reading the posts. A few things: for me I don't think submission is just about doing things I'm uncomfortable with. Pushing the limits, trying something new, doing the uncomfortable can strengthen a bond, or at the extreme end it can destroy it. I honestly believe doing things that both people really love can still be D/s as long as power dynamics are involved. Is there a rule somewhere saying the sub isn't really submitting to something if they enjoy it? (even if it might be easier than submitting to something s/he really hates or finds distasteful)

I am still in the first year of discovery and while I've tried some things I'm nowhere near the experience of many on this thread. At this point if someone asked me to do something I was fundamentally opposed to doing I would say no. If I was in a headspace that made it difficult for me to guage my reaction to something and my partner used that to take me through experiences he knew I was opposed to I would feel that trust had been broken. I'm talking hard limits. Things that I do not feel safe doing, things that gross me out beyond the point that I could live with myself the next day. The bootlicking, eh, *shrugs* that isn't an act that I care for in and of itself. I'm also not morally/ethically opposed and him knowing that he was asking something that was mildly distasteful; it's almost like a test to see if the submission goes deeper than selfish desires, to see if it's sincere.

At the point that I have to distance myself into a protective shell it might be a sign that something is not working, that something is broaching a hard limit. Over time those limits might change, but I dislike the thought of doing something that I would later regret. Be embarrassed by sure. Look back on and blush most definately. But regret...I hope not...I want to look back and smile at what happened, by the limit pushed and hopefully overcome.

If I was asked for example to pleasure someone else, a complete stranger, in a public setting no less *eyebrow wiggle* and I did it as an act of submission, I would hate myself the next day for doing something that is distasteful to me and I'd be stressed about what std's he might have had and all the other ramifications of being used publicly. With a few adjustments in scenario, (concessions if you will to who I am) a really challenging or distasteful task could no doubt be found, just one that didn't ride roughshod over my morals, creating a situation where I would resent being asked to do it in the first place. I can see how for another the first example wouldn't be an issue at all and I respect that different people will come at submission from different places. For me being asked to do the above would feel like a violation given the way I was raised and the beliefs I hold.

I completely respect that what is healthy for me is going to be very different than what works for another. I've learned that certain things slip me into a happy place really quickly. If a partner wanted me fully aware, fully engaged it would take some effort on both our parts to keep me focussed on the here and now. Mia and Homburg, I definately understand about the mention of ropework and wanting to experience every second. What a conundrum: do you stay in the moment or fly off into subspace and enjoy that level of bonding? It is one of the most trusting things I think, to slip out of myself into a place of complete vulnerability where I am utterly malleable under another's hands. I forget who said it, but I really liked the example of using distance as training wheels. There's a progression there and a means of trying something out that might otherwise damage you... That said, I don't like the thought of becoming someone I can't recognize or losing core values by pushing too deep too fast. I'll probably go pretty damn far in my lifetime, taking babysteps as my brain gets a handle on new things. In any case for me it will be a mental progression full of introspection, reevaluation, and growth.

(and yeah, I know I'm a babe in the woods so please humor me lol...I know there are others out there who also are just learning or starting out which is part of the reason I wanted to post this)