Testosterone/Low Libido Questions

[njlauren]

Any kind of hormone therapy takes time, I know that from when I was on HRT as a M to F trans person (was on them for 5 years or so), it takes time for them to kick in and they are tricky because no 2 people react the same way (I was on a so called starter dose of premarin and spiroaldactone, and my estrogen levels were way high), and recovering the other way takes time. It is also important he be monitored, taking t can lead to side effects you don't want, the male body with T or steroids can react by producing female hormones, it is weird......

The thing is, the symptoms you talk about, depression, excess weight, lethargy, all can be caused by hormones. Doctors are finally coming around to hormones and health, and are starting to realize that aging and decreasing levels of hormones are not necessarily desirable.

These days I am on the low end of things (or was), in part prob because of those years of female HRT, I take an herbal mix that contains horny goat weed, ginko and ginseng, and it seems to help (I haven't had my hormone levels checked recently).

One thing I do know, the endocrinologist I worked with was an expert on sex hormones, literally wrote the book, was head of the endo department at a major teaching hospital in NYC, and he told me that with the sex hormones it is not well understood even by experts, and terms like 'normal', 'low normal' don't mean much, because one guy could be climbing the walls with a 'low normal' t level, another guy could be a lethargic lump with levels considered high, it is all about how the body reacts. Like I said, he was surprised how sensitive my body was to the female hormones and the levels given the dose I was on and how my body reacted to it, everyone is different.

Speaking from my own experience, please be patient with him, it likely is not about you, when the hormones are out of whack it is like you lost your best friend, your parents and your testicles in the same weak, it feels like you are encased in some sort of goo, life goes by slowly, and about all you want to do is throw yourself on the sofa and sit there and vegetate, and Angelina Jolie could walk in in tight leather clothing and you would tell her to get her ass out of the way of the tv......

I suspect you will see a nice change in him. Encourage him to try and eat better, try and exercise intensely (35 minutes of intense exercise is better than an hour or more of low impact exercise), and I also recommend trying gingko and ginseng to go along with the T, might just help

 

[Que]

That all sounds pretty sensible...i would think that his therapy, adding yet another system (mind and emotions) well as you suggest below have synergistic benefits.

Even if the testosterone supplements only helping a psychosomatic basis which in the early stages that they already seem to be experiencing would be pretty much the relevant explaination, it should have him having some success in the bedroom... more success in the bedroom will make him want to do it more.... I know it's kind of chicken and eggs but from what I understand testostrone does seem to increase with use.

I realize that I'm late to the thread, but I'll chime in. In my experience we have to look at the male libido as a system, and not a "thing". There are a lot of things that influence each other, and sometime cause each other. I am in my late 40s. I have low testosterone, am a bit overweight, and suffer from sleep apnea. Low testosterone causes weight gain, apnea causes weight gain, weight gain causes apnea and lower free testosterone. It's a cycle.

Among the things that I have struggled with are sex drive, overall sense of well being, fatigue, motivation, and a few other things. Any one or more of those symptoms can have more than one cause. My approach to managing my health is based on the "body as a system" for lack of a better explanation. It has included getting treatment for the apnea, using a prescription 3% testosterone creme, diet and exercise. I backslide on the diet constantly, unfortunately.

This road has taken more than a year. Insurance, overbooked Dr's, waiting for test results, repeating tests, waiting for another visit to the dr all wasted weeks and months.

Any one of the treatments I'm using (apnea, testosterone) might be contributing to my overall improvement in mood, sex drive, and energy. I went on a strenuous backpacking trip this summer and lost 10 lbs. Most of that was probably water, but after getting back my wife didn't know what hit her in bed Driven and hard as steel like I havent felt in ages. I think that by approaching the body as a system I have improved the outcome.

Best of luck to you.

 

[summiter1]

Pink as I know you have heard...give him some time. Remember that some anti-depressants can make sex difficult (i.e. orgasm) . Make sure he is working out every day, and eating healthy. As you know alcohol, cigarettes and drugs (legal and illegal) will interfere with his sex drive.

 

[gagginforit]

Just a follow up...

I went to see a new doctor and had some new tests done. They show my testosterone levels have gone up by themselves, presumably due to some personal development and confidence building I've achieved lately because I haven't changed my diet or exercise regime. Now they're more or less right in the middle... normal.

I was disappointed despite it seeming like good news because I still have issues with low sex drive, ED and self esteem issues which I link to how I perceive women perceive me. I had sort of pinned my hopes on that being the cause. The doctor said replacement therapy would not be appropriate but I could pay for patches myself, but said I would be better off exercising, and socialising and building my self esteem and confidence that way. Which is good advice and I've heard it before. He also said it might just be a case of not having met the right woman yet. In short, my problems are psychological and if testosterone replacement had any effect on me it would be a placebo effect.

So basically I'm back to where I was.

 

[CBM514]

Just a follow up...

I went to see a new doctor and had some new tests done. They show my testosterone levels have gone up by themselves, presumably due to some personal development and confidence building I've achieved lately because I haven't changed my diet or exercise regime. Now they're more or less right in the middle... normal.

I was disappointed despite it seeming like good news because I still have issues with low sex drive, ED and self esteem issues which I link to how I perceive women perceive me. I had sort of pinned my hopes on that being the cause. The doctor said replacement therapy would not be appropriate but I could pay for patches myself, but said I would be better off exercising, and socialising and building my self esteem and confidence that way. Which is good advice and I've heard it before. He also said it might just be a case of not having met the right woman yet. In short, my problems are psychological and if testosterone replacement had any effect on me it would be a placebo effect.

So basically I'm back to where I was.

Well that's good news that diet and exercise have adjusted your levels, but your doc is not correct that adding external test won't have an impact on you both physically and psychologically...the issue is that if its not very medically necessary (I.e. low values from a blood test) then insurance won't pay for it and docs are hesitant to prescribe it to put you in the higher "normal" range that would give you a better quality of life overall

 

[DrHappy]

... and had some new tests done. They show my testosterone levels have gone up by themselves

What are the new values?

 

[CBM514]

What are the new values?

Good question...also did they test for both free and bio-available?

 

[gagginforit]

What are the new values?

I'll get the paperwork from the doctor. I'm going to get further blood tests done in the evening this time, in case my levels are dropping during the day. I'll get those results as well.

I can't really afford to buy patches myself but they would be free if a specialist okayed it but according to this doctor I don't meet the criteria. My last option is a men's sexual health clinic and hoping they will authorise it. I'll have to wait a few weeks though before I can afford it.

Well that's good news that diet and exercise have adjusted your levels, but your doc is not correct that adding external test won't have an impact on you both physically and psychologically...the issue is that if its not very medically necessary (I.e. low values from a blood test) then insurance won't pay for it and docs are hesitant to prescribe it to put you in the higher "normal" range that would give you a better quality of life overall

I don't live in the US, the government funds a lot of medication but I guess it's a similar situation, they're not going to do it unless it's medically necessary.

Good question...also did they test for both free and bio-available?

Um, I don't know. I'll ask.

 

[fire_breeze]

I'll get the paperwork from the doctor. I'm going to get further blood tests done in the evening this time, in case my levels are dropping during the day. I'll get those results as well.

I can't really afford to buy patches myself but they would be free if a specialist okayed it but according to this doctor I don't meet the criteria. My last option is a men's sexual health clinic and hoping they will authorise it. I'll have to wait a few weeks though before I can afford it.



I don't live in the US, the government funds a lot of medication but I guess it's a similar situation, they're not going to do it unless it's medically necessary.



Um, I don't know. I'll ask.

It might also be worth the while to ask if there are any over the counter supplements. It's quite possible that you just need a slight boost rather than something stronger. Sometimes, taking meds while on the low end of the spectrum would cause more harm than good, but if you're sensitive to it, than a little nudge to slightly increase your levels is all that you need.

It's something worth asking.

 

[gagginforit]

It might also be worth the while to ask if there are any over the counter supplements. It's quite possible that you just need a slight boost rather than something stronger. Sometimes, taking meds while on the low end of the spectrum would cause more harm than good, but if you're sensitive to it, than a little nudge to slightly increase your levels is all that you need.

It's something worth asking.

I did ask the doc, he said there is nothing available that has actually been proven to work. I'd be up for suggestions though.

 

[Asshungry]

Just a follow up...

I went to see a new doctor and had some new tests done. They show my testosterone levels have gone up by themselves, presumably due to some personal development and confidence building I've achieved lately because I haven't changed my diet or exercise regime. Now they're more or less right in the middle... normal.

I was disappointed despite it seeming like good news because I still have issues with low sex drive, ED and self esteem issues which I link to how I perceive women perceive me. I had sort of pinned my hopes on that being the cause. The doctor said replacement therapy would not be appropriate but I could pay for patches myself, but said I would be better off exercising, and socialising and building my self esteem and confidence that way. Which is good advice and I've heard it before. He also said it might just be a case of not having met the right woman yet. In short, my problems are psychological and if testosterone replacement had any effect on me it would be a placebo effect.

So basically I'm back to where I was.

was that normal reading for total testosterone? There is also a measure for free testosterone, this is the important one. Free testosterone is what does all the work, if its down you will be down regardless of what your total test is.

 

[CBM514]

I did ask the doc, he said there is nothing available that has actually been proven to work. I'd be up for suggestions though.

A lot of people swear by tribulus...I think if you are physically my producing anything it won't help, but it may give you the bump you are looking for on 2-3grams/ day

 

[amofiga]

Just a follow up...

I went to see a new doctor and had some new tests done. They show my testosterone levels have gone up by themselves, presumably due to some personal development and confidence building I've achieved lately because I haven't changed my diet or exercise regime. Now they're more or less right in the middle... normal.

I was disappointed despite it seeming like good news because I still have issues with low sex drive, ED and self esteem issues which I link to how I perceive women perceive me. I had sort of pinned my hopes on that being the cause. The doctor said replacement therapy would not be appropriate but I could pay for patches myself, but said I would be better off exercising, and socialising and building my self esteem and confidence that way. Which is good advice and I've heard it before. He also said it might just be a case of not having met the right woman yet. In short, my problems are psychological and if testosterone replacement had any effect on me it would be a placebo effect.

So basically I'm back to where I was.

If your testosterone is "normal", ED problems could indeed be psychological as you say, but you should (and if you've seen a doctor probably have) been checked out for heart and blood pressure issues. In older men, ED can be tied to heart and circulatory problems, often as a result of undetected diabetes.

Testosterone per se helps to provide the "urge" but not the mechanics of erection. Testosterone provides the libido that makes you "want to do it", but there are other enzymes, blood chemicals, and issues that control getting an erection and keeping it. ED drugs like Viagra and Cialis not only affect arterial response and production of nitrix oxide, but also other enzymes that affect getting and keeping erections. ED in younger men with normal physical health is most likely emotional. ED in significantly older men who haven't previously had issues MAY be a precursor to a diagnosis of diabetes or artherosclerosis along with low testerosterone levels.

 

[gagginforit]

Here are my results from 5th Sep.

Testosterone: 14.2 nmol/L ( 8.0 - 29.0 )

It doesn't say anything about free or total testosterone. I could talk to the doctor but he was pretty adamant that testosterone therapy wouldn't help me. But I plan to go ahead with it if I can. I'm going to a men's sexual health clinic next week. Hopefully they will be able to help me or at least authorise the patches for me.

Thanks everyone who has replied to me.

 

[DrHappy]

Here are my results from 5th Sep.

Testosterone: 14.2 nmol/L ( 8.0 - 29.0 )

If I did my math correctly, that is still in the lowest ~16% percentile for your age group. It's better than your previous results, which were in the lowest 5th percentile, but it's still not very good.

 

[rider81]

It's important to track free and well as total testosterone. Most GP's miss that.

 

[gagginforit]

It's important to track free and well as total testosterone. Most GP's miss that.

Lets hope the doctors at the sexual health clinic don't.

 

[pplwatching]

Here's a web page that helps shed light on some of the confusion in measurements.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/01/16/normal-testosterone-levels/

It's difficult for us laymen to sort out what's really low and what's normal. It doesn't help that some labs (like mine) report using different units, so it takes a calculator to convert. For example, the lab that I use reports my levels as 3.8 ng/mL total and 8.34 pg/mL free (before creme therapy). The lab report says that 9.0 pg/mL is the low end of normal. I plan to seek out a specialist and discuss upgrading from creme to shots or subcutaneous.

 

[HeavyFuel]

I have had a mild case of Gynecomastia since age 11 (now 55) and not from being over weight. Have had low T for the past ten years (181 free T, E levels high side of normal for a man) and have been on various courses of treatment during those years ranging from creams, gels, injections, under arm applied (axiron) stuff, and back to creams, all while under various doctor's care. My levels were in the 500-600 range. What were my results? Well, sometime during the T injection phase, I developed painful, achy, and at times itchy breasts 2 1/2 years ago which resulted in me now having to wear a bra. Yup, a bra, and its a 38C. I even went for a fitting. Not exactly what I had in mind. The up side is that my wife and I go bra shopping together and in the evening she removes mine and I remove hers. Lucky for me she is good with it or it would cost me an operation for boob removal which is something I do not relish. She actually thinks its funny telling me that now you know what I have to put up with.
What has T done for libido? Not much that I can tell. My sex drive was never stellar and T hasn't done much in the way of urge that I can tell. Also while on T, I tend to be moodier in terms of aggression.
With boob growth (also with slightly diminished urine stream, climbing PSA) and a lengthy conversation with my Dr along with further blood work, I decided to get off the T for 6 months and see what happens. In March I will have my levels checked again.
So now, I have been off for 2 months. What do I notice? A slightly reduced urge to merge, much slower facial hair growth, urine stream is great, more even mood and less aggressiveness (not as moody), and no depression whatsoever. I actually feel pretty good.

I guess my advice is that Testosterone therapy is nothing to play with. Do discuss it with your doctor and get a 2nd opinion if you need. It works for many men, but not for me. I wasn't expecting puberty of the female sort at my age.

 

[gagginforit]

I have had a mild case of Gynecomastia since age 11 (now 55) and not from being over weight. Have had low T for the past ten years (181 free T, E levels high side of normal for a man) and have been on various courses of treatment during those years ranging from creams, gels, injections, under arm applied (axiron) stuff, and back to creams, all while under various doctor's care. My levels were in the 500-600 range. What were my results? Well, sometime during the T injection phase, I developed painful, achy, and at times itchy breasts 2 1/2 years ago which resulted in me now having to wear a bra. Yup, a bra, and its a 38C. I even went for a fitting. Not exactly what I had in mind. The up side is that my wife and I go bra shopping together and in the evening she removes mine and I remove hers. Lucky for me she is good with it or it would cost me an operation for boob removal which is something I do not relish. She actually thinks its funny telling me that now you know what I have to put up with.
What has T done for libido? Not much that I can tell. My sex drive was never stellar and T hasn't done much in the way of urge that I can tell. Also while on T, I tend to be moodier in terms of aggression.
With boob growth (also with slightly diminished urine stream, climbing PSA) and a lengthy conversation with my Dr along with further blood work, I decided to get off the T for 6 months and see what happens. In March I will have my levels checked again.
So now, I have been off for 2 months. What do I notice? A slightly reduced urge to merge, much slower facial hair growth, urine stream is great, more even mood and less aggressiveness (not as moody), and no depression whatsoever. I actually feel pretty good.

I guess my advice is that Testosterone therapy is nothing to play with. Do discuss it with your doctor and get a 2nd opinion if you need. It works for many men, but not for me. I wasn't expecting puberty of the female sort at my age.

That's very sobering. Thank you. You seem to be saying the Gynecomastia was caused by the T therapy, but you've had it since age eleven?

 

[gagginforit]

I go to the men's sexual health place this week. My other option is an herbal and natural... I don't know what you would call it, medical centre. This place.

http://www.naturalange.co.nz/

I emailed them and explained my symptoms and asked if they had anything that might help and they suggested I come in for an appointment. So maybe that will help. The only thing is I doubt anything they can offer will be subsidised by the governement so it will be quite costly to be on something long term.

But I have options and I feel like there is hope. After the last doctor I saw, which was a second opinion, I felt like I was back to square one.

 

[njlauren]

I did ask the doc, he said there is nothing available that has actually been proven to work. I'd be up for suggestions though.

I would warn you that doctors will tell you that about a lot of things. I saw a cardiologist who recommended I take lipitor or one of the other statin drugs, instead I started taking red rice yeast which the doctor claimed didn't work,etc...yet integrative physicians like Dr. Andrew Weil and others working with their patients have had success with Red Rice Yeast. Same way Cardiologists still claim that taking coq10 with statin drugs is not standard protocol, when all kinds of studies are showing that those drugs can cause heart damage because they deprive the heart of coq10.

I don't know if herbal supplements would help you or not, but it is worth a shot, and they don't cost a fortune, either. The other thought I have is if you think it is psychological, you may want to work with a therapist with an expertise sexuality to work on the issues that may be hindering you. Depression and stress can kill a sex drive, big time, and so can other psychological issues.

 

[njlauren]

I go to the men's sexual health place this week. My other option is an herbal and natural... I don't know what you would call it, medical centre. This place.

http://www.naturalange.co.nz/

I emailed them and explained my symptoms and asked if they had anything that might help and they suggested I come in for an appointment. So maybe that will help. The only thing is I doubt anything they can offer will be subsidised by the governement so it will be quite costly to be on something long term.

But I have options and I feel like there is hope. After the last doctor I saw, which was a second opinion, I felt like I was back to square one.

I can't speak for them, but naturopathic stuff is not going to be as expensive as prescription meds (if they give you something expensive, you can prob find out what is in it and get the same thing from a health food store). The supplement I take that has worked so far costs me like 36 bucks a month.

 

[HeavyFuel]

Yup, had it since age 11. I was always somewhat busty but never to the point of boobs that needed support. The T shots made them start growing all over again, or so the theory goes.

 

[gagginforit]

My session at the sexual health clinic went pretty well. The doctor was more open to trying out the testosterone replacement rout. He suggested trying a short course of shots to see if I noticed any difference, and if I did he could prescribe a subsidised product, which is good because there's no way I could afford it otherwise.

He gave me a shot of something called Sustanon, and I'm to go for another one in two weeks. If we get to three and I haven't noticed anything then he said he would be reluctant to continue with testosterone therapy.

So that's good.

Oh and apparently my noits are a bit smaller than normal, which doesn't necessarily mean anything but is something no man wants to hear.

I still have the natural option if this doesn't go anywhere. And he also gave me a card for a therapist if I wanted to pursue that.

I asked about total and free testosterone and he said the labs don't check for it but you can get an idea of it by looking at the total levels and he didn't seem to think it was a problem. So I have to admit being confused by what I hear here and what the doctors are telling me. But I appreciate all the support.