Technically, we're insane

[Etoile]

According to the DSM-IV, some kinksters are clinically disordered.

Diagnostic criteria for 302.83 Sexual Masochism
A. Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving the act (real, not simulated) of being humiliated, beaten, bound, or otherwise made to suffer.
B. The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

Diagnostic criteria for 302.84 Sexual Sadism
A. Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving acts (real, not simulated) in which the psychological or physical suffering (including humiliation) of the victim is sexually exciting to the person.
B. The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

While part B means that most of us posting on this board would not fall under these classifications, it is probable that people are still being diagnosed with this today. Perhaps someone in a rural area doesn't understand their desires, and sees a professional about it. Lacking adequate information, the psychiatrist decides the person is mentally ill according to the DSM. This could happen in anywhere in the country (the DSM-IV is a document of the American Psychiatric Association), too, perhaps if family members disapprove of a loved one's proclivities and doctor-shop to get this diagnosis.

The DSM-IV-TR (Text Revision) makes this change to part B for sadism:

B. The person has acted on these urges with a nonconsenting person, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.

This could create other diagnoses, as "interpersonal difficulty" could be considered marriage problems. A couple goes to see a marriage counselor, who refers them to a psychiatrist, who sees that the person meets the criteria.

Is this appropriate? Should someone who is into BDSM be labeled as mentally ill? The new edition, the DSM-V, is currently being researched and won't be published until 2011. It's possible that these diagnoses could be revised or removed, but we don't know yet.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Nope-ity Nope -- technically we're perves

Sexual Disorder, Paraphilias

NOT Psychosis.

As long are behaving like de Sade, we are perves. If we think we ARE de Sade, then we are nutsos.

PS (recovering Psych major)

I usta be an S/Masochist before getting on this board, which cured me of Part B, being distressed about it. So thank you all for restoring me to mental health!

But your point is well-taken. Fer instance, being gay can 'cause' interpersonal difficulty (the difficulty of finding relationships in a small town, having to deal with homophobes, etc). I mean life isn't always convenient or interpersonally easy when you have a difference. Wonder what they were trying to get at in adding that part of item B? If it doesn't distress You, and you're not performing on the non-consenting, what business is it of anybody else? Am I missing something here?

 

[Phoenix Stone]

repeat

 

[Xelebes]

I always knew I was insane...

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Hell-ooo, Xelebes?? You paying attention, dude?

I always knew I was insane...

Now Quit that! -- while you and I may well be insane, we derive NO, I repeat NO corroboration for it, via DSM IV 302.8.

Perve YES
Nutso NO

Puh-leeze do not distort science to serve your own vile needs.

Feel free to call yourself sicko, perve, twisted, even dysfunctional if you must. But Crazy, wacko and insane must be reserved for the Select Few. And I am afraid that you, and those of your Ilk, unless you can show greater cause than mere Masochism with distress -- try as you might -- are Not among them.

 

[Xelebes]

I was refering to other aspects to my life - like being uber-avoidant and anxiety ridden and other ticks like that.

 

[Etoile]

Re: Hell-ooo, Xelebes?? You paying attention, dude?

Feel free to call yourself sicko, perve, twisted, even dysfunctional if you must. But Crazy, wacko and insane must be reserved for the Select Few. And I am afraid that you, and those of your Ilk, unless you can show greater cause than mere Masochism with distress -- try as you might -- are Not among them.

Actually, I hate to break it to you, but I have been diagnosed with (and medicated for) 314.01 (Combined Type), 296.33 (Recurrent, Severe Without Psychotic Features), 300.02, and 307.42. So, yeah, I'd say that's greater cause in my case.

Hey wait, I'm hijacking my own thread!

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Is this appropriate?

Don't know ... some have other opinions ...

The APA, in the DSM-IV, reclassified SM as _not_ necessarily a disorder, unless the practice of the SM produces clinically significant ongoing emotional trauma, or leads to death, serious injury, or disability. The DSM-IV is recognition by the theraputic community that SM can be practiced in a psychologically healthy way. Specifically, _DSM IV_, © *1994*, page 529, §302.83, "sexual masochism": Classed as a paraphilia, not a disorder, lacking negative implications unless "the fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning."

But then this was the opinion of kinksters.

Personally? Mr/Mrs mindscrew will find their precious text shoved up their fourth point of contact if they attempt to tell me what i can do with another consenting adult.

 

[Etoile]

Yeah, it's on page 529 in the book I've got here, too. The other paraphilias listed are exhibitionism (302.4), fetishism (302.81), frotteurism (302.89), pedophilia (302.2), transvestic fetishism (302.3), voyeurism (302.82), and paraphilia not other wise specified (302.9).

Paraphilia NOS includes telephone scatalogia (obscene phone calls), necrophilia (corpses), partialism (exclusive focus on part of the body), zoophilia (animals), coprophilia (feces), klismaphilia (enemas), and urophilia (urine).

I don't see where it says they're not disorders, though. The opening section for Paraphilias (it's three pages long, so I'm not typing it in) doesn't seem to reference that.

Keep in mind, too, that by including it in the DSM-IV, it is classified as a disorder and therefore can considered by society to be bad. My point wasn't that we should consider ourselves insane, but that the APA can make that distinction. As I mentioned in my first post, those mostly at risk for this are those in isolated areas and perhaps those with oppressive families.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

hijack cont.

Actually, I hate to break it to you, but I have been diagnosed with (and medicated for) 314.01 (Combined Type), 296.33 (Recurrent, Severe Without Psychotic Features), 300.02, and 307.42. So, yeah, I'd say that's greater cause in my case.

Hey wait, I'm hijacking my own thread!

Nice try but No-oooo! Mood Disorder, Without Psychotic Features.

Without Psychotic Features: translates roughly as Not Nutso.

And ADD, doesn't not a Wacko make. Try Again!

Bent, twisted, maybe even a screw loose. (Might even stretch to Mentally Ill, if your depression has gotten you hospitalized.)
But, and this is a BIG but, not insane.

returning you your thread unscathed: They shall not calll Me Bent and get away with it, for now my S/M no longer causes me Distress! I am at Ease with my Perviness, in a state of Oneness with my Dark self, have embraced the Shadow, Hence am one of the UnBent. (But it's still not going on my grad school and job apps. And I'll probably not be starting a S/M Anti-discrimination & Liberation chapter there, either.)

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Yeah, it's on page 529 in the book I've got here, too. The other paraphilias listed are exhibitionism (302.4), fetishism (302.81), frotteurism (302.89), pedophilia (302.2), transvestic fetishism (302.3), voyeurism (302.82), and paraphilia not other wise specified (302.9).

Paraphilia NOS includes telephone scatalogia (obscene phone calls), necrophilia (corpses), partialism (exclusive focus on part of the body), zoophilia (animals), coprophilia (feces), klismaphilia (enemas), and urophilia (urine).

I don't see where it says they're not disorders, though. The opening section for Paraphilias (it's three pages long, so I'm not typing it in) doesn't seem to reference that.

Keep in mind, too, that by including it in the DSM-IV, it is classified as a disorder and therefore can considered by society to be bad. My point wasn't that we should consider ourselves insane, but that the APA can make that distinction. As I mentioned in my first post, those mostly at risk for this are those in isolated areas and perhaps those with oppressive families.

You know, you'd think they'd start separating out the non-consent angle on these. Whether or not I like scat or have fetishes, these don't have as part of their raison d'etre doing something to the unconsenting. There is a diff between liking phone sex and doing obscene phone calls, and it's the consent angle.

As a rights issue, and a 'something wrong with you' issue, if it wasn't for this the consent problem, I don't see why they should be treated any differently than sexual gender preference about which someone might or might not feel distress. Which has, at least by the APA, been de-disordered.

 

[Etoile]

Re: hijack cont.

Bent, twisted, maybe even a screw loose. (Might even stretch to Mentally Ill, if your depression has gotten you hospitalized.)
But, and this is a BIG but, not insane.

It has gotten me hospitalized, as a matter of fact, when I was 17. Thanks for asking.

I think you're focusing too much on what I chose as the title for this thread. I used "insane" because it would be a good draw for people reading the thread list. I stand by my statement, though, that getting a diagnosis from the DSM does classify a person as disordered at a minimum. It sounds like you're interpreting insane more in a courtroom sense. I'm not talking legally insane, I'm talking something that society will look down on.

And keep in mind, too, that I said I don't think many of the posters here would fit the bill. I'm not talking about us, I'm talking about generalities. I'm talking about people from religious backgrounds, from rural areas. I'm talking about the fact that those items, in the DSM, make it possible for someone into kink to be diagnosed with something, and whether or not that's appropriate.

 

[Vixandra]

Having delt with some "padded room renting" psychos in the past year (since being transfered to an inpatint unit) I think it'd be easier to deal with them if they were BDSM "freaks"
Spanking your wife does not mean you're crazy. It makes you wrong if she doesn't want it, but it does not make you crazy.
Spanking her to "drive out Satan/demon/etc" that makes you a wacko but if she wants it the there's little society can or should do about it.
Now if she doesn't want it- then everyone, her, him, etc needs help.
Otherwise- leave them alone and worry about the kids who think its funny to harass and abuse another child to the point of suicide. That's a far more serious problem then willing BDSM'ers in my opinion.

 

[Etoile]

As a rights issue, and a 'something wrong with you' issue, if it wasn't for this the consent problem, I don't see why they should be treated any differently than sexual gender preference about which someone might or might not feel distress. Which has, at least by the APA, been de-disordered.

Aha! Now I think you're seeing why I started this thread.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

about the hijack

Aha! Now I think you're seeing why I started this thread.

I saw it from the beginning, and agree with it. And finally figured I'd better go ahead and Say so.

'Spose the reason for me getting all into that (and I carefully Didn't ask, btw), besides just because Smartass is my natural bent (should be a dsm # on that), is that I grew up around a Psychotic. I take anti-depressants and such myself, but it is Way different than real psychosis, and for some reason that I don't think I can articulate just now, differentiating matters to me enough that I jumped on my highhorse about it. Definitely not trying to cause hurt.



Ps. Maybe we DO need those liberation groups. (They probably have them around here, as I'm in the SF Bay Area.)

 

[Phoenix Stone]

place to start

http://NCSFreedom.org/

national coalition of sexual freedom

 

[catalina_francisco]

And perhaps there is safety in thinking perhaps you are insane as the professionals say those who truly are seldom question their own sanity, or believe anyone else should also. Has eased the mind of many a stressed out client in my office.

Catalina

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Has eased the mind of many a stressed out client in my office.

Catalina

But we know you're nuts dear ...

You'd have to be insane to moderate on the Lit chat board.

Guess Etoile had a kernel of truth behind the thread afterall ... http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/363868/2cool2.gif

 

[catalina_francisco]

But we know you're nuts dear ...

You'd have to be insane to moderate on the Lit chat board.

Guess Etoile had a kernel of truth behind the thread afterall ... http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/363868/2cool2.gif

MOI?!!! Nuts?! Never! whatever could you be thinking? All these nice, kind, loving, gentle, caring, sharing, friendly, pacifist, adorable, well adjusted, perfectly sane people......lol, no need for moderating at all. #*@^^

Catalina

 

[AngelicAssassin]

MOI?!!! Nuts?! Never! whatever could you be thinking? All these nice, kind, loving, gentle, caring, sharing, friendly, pacifist, adorable, well adjusted, perfectly sane people......lol, no need for moderating at all. #*@^^

Catalina

Quietly steals her favorite instrument from which to receive pain and glides out of the thread ...

 

[barcaboy]

So what I get out of all this is, coping (i.e., societal/occupational functioning) and not torturing yourself (avoiding that debilitating "clinically significant" level of stress) is the essence of sanity. Which leads me to think:

Does SM (i.e., 'torturing' others or allowing others to 'torture' you, engaging in self-selected acts of well-crafted 'stress') in fact relieve the 'bad' stress & promote well-adjusted, healthy citizens of the world community? The question answers itself, doesn't it?

On an embarassingly personal note (and this relates to Etoile's concern for those pervs in rural/religious communities): years ago I was (blush) an (undiagnosed) teenage frottagist in the wilds of northern New England.

Don't even ask me how I got into this or where I could have gotten this from, but there was a period of a year or so where I would occasionally 1) go to the local public library after school, and 2) brush my hand along female patron's asses as I passed them in the stacks. Very innocently and discreetly, of course. So I thought. But technically, and clinically, a frottagist.

My days as a serial ass-brusher came to an abrupt end when I surreptitiously overheard one of my 'victims' louding telling the head librarian what I was up to and demanding fiery justice. For better (or worse), the head librarian told the rightly indignant woman not to worry, that I was "harmless". And I realized 1) I was pissing people off mightily, and better stop before I got my skinny teen butt handed to me; and 2) the head librarian had no idea if I was harmless or not - she was just too embarassed to even bring up the subject with me!

So in this case, rural (or at least provincial) squeamishness/politeness actually got one perv out of a major jam.

Never to be repeated, I swear.

 

[Etoile]

But we know you're nuts dear ...

You'd have to be insane to moderate on the Lit chat board.

Guess Etoile had a kernel of truth behind the thread afterall ... http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/363868/2cool2.gif

Seeeee, I told you I was crazy!

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Seeeee, I told you I was crazy!

Ok Fine You WIN!

You can Have the title. AND the crown. And the Ribbon. And the damned Uniform, if you want it. (They run a little tight in the sleeves tho.)

 

[Netzach]

I have no expectation that I will ever be labeled sane in a society where GWB has good approval ratings, people think 2 people need 2 cars, people think they need new cars every year, and people eat processed cheese in a can.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Quietly steals her favorite instrument from which to receive pain and glides out of the thread ...

LOL, or favourite with which to deliver pain....

Catalina