Tattoos, piercings, and other styles of body modification.

[colddiesel]

I, for one, didn't say that we necessarily labeled ourselves by doing anything (although some intentionally do). I said that there are others (lots of others) who choose to define folks that way--and, yes, they do so on visuals other than tattoos too. To say they don't is just being blind to reality. And you don't stop anyone doing so--and choosing it to let them color their response to you--just by saying it's wrong or misleading to do so. It is also spitting in the wind. It's going to happen whether you think it's wrong or not.

Not all tattoos are going to get a uniform response from people either. A rosebud on the ankle is likely to rate on the "oh, cute" end of the scale. A skull with "Death to All N-----s" blazoned on your forehead is going to get people crossing the street as you approach.

You have made a couple of good points here Pilot. I ran a business for 30 years, recruiting and placing staff, mainly in mining and other primary industries. A blue collar worker, a labourer, construction worker, carpenter, roofer, truck driver can be covered in tattoos and it will not effect employability. But if a company is recruiting management it's a problem - senior management a no no.


One of the biggest problems is aspirational people who want to move up the career ladder. They can learn the hard way that appearances count. About eighteen months ago my firm was asked to find a warehouse/transport manager. They had a first rate internal candidate who knew the work inside out and was highly effective. But the boss said "No, we cannot put a man with a lot of tattoos in front of clients." Result: career blocked at 35 by tats; whether that is reasonable or not is another issue.

Facial tattoos make their possessors virtually unemployable in almost any role, ditto, aggressive or gang tattoos.

I have interviewed 1000's of job applicants over the years and have formed the view that the most important part of any interview is the first 5 seconds. Rightly or wrongly negative judgments can and do happen that fast. Personal appearance matters and tattoos are consistently associated with negative outcomes.

 

[heather_baby]

Honestly, giving head is the same for me now as has always been. There really is no difference. Even my "partner" agrees. Of course, he's not going to argue with great head, but still.

 

[sr71plt]

That's interesting. I'm not sure what it relates too, but thanks for sharing, Heather. If you're still stuck on (and with) the tongue ball piercing, I'll have to totally agree with being given head by a partner with a tongue ball as being a really great experience--as long as I don't have to pay his dental bill. I really, really doubt you can name one mouth enhancement health value of having a steel ball clicking around against your teeth and gums inside your mouth 24/7.

 

[lovecraft68]

I agree certain tattoos can have a significant effect on how one is viewed. Swastikas, racist slurs, other skin head type markings and gang tats all say something different than a young woman-and there are many these days- with full sleeve tattoos.

I mentioned back somewhere that I came close to getting some occult symbols on my hands. Glad I never did because there are no two ways to interpret that.

But the belief that tattoos make people unemployable (okay the face tats, I see somewhat of a point) is archaic and certainly at this point in time discrimination

So Mr Diesel I hope someday if you're still in the hiring process you slip up with your opinion and get a suit filed against you.

30-40 years ago tattoos were associated with jail/bikers/drugs/gangs and bad asses.

Now if you walk into a parlor you're more apt to see a bunch of 18-early twenties young ladies getting them. The day they became popular with women is the day the industry changed there are a lot of young women out there with as much if not more ink than me and it is much more socially acceptable.

My daughter is in school to be a DCYF officer she is working as an intern and the social worker she is working with is mid thirties and has a full sleeve and an eyebrow piercing she works for the State of RI and makes some decent money. One of my daughters professors has both arms covered.

They are not for everyone, but you are pretty much a dinosaur to link them with criminals and trash these days.

But I know my share of stubborn old farts set in their ways so I know I'm wasting my breath on the "Back in my day" crowd.

 

[BurningMonkey]

They are not for everyone, but you are pretty much a dinosaur to link them with criminals and trash these days.

But I know my share of stubborn old farts set in their ways so I know I'm wasting my breath on the "Back in my day" crowd.

Sounds to me like the "dinosaurs" are not the only ones given to making blanket judgments...

I think the real impetus for getting tats is to identify to the world visually that you're a Bad Boy or a Bad Girl without actually having to go through the bother of being "bad"... but that's just one man's opinion...

 

[Touch_72]

That's interesting. I'm not sure what it relates too, but thanks for sharing, Heather. If you're still stuck on (and with) the tongue ball piercing, I'll have to totally agree with being given head by a partner with a tongue ball as being a really great experience--as long as I don't have to pay his dental bill. I really, really doubt you can name one mouth enhancement health value of having a steel ball clicking around against your teeth and gums inside your mouth 24/7.

I'm far from against piercings and don't agree with this post from that stance, but have to say this hit home. *lol* He's got a point that you at least DO need to be careful with it.

A good 15 or so years ago, I had one. I also had a tendency to play with it in my mouth a lot, flicking it off the top palette and rolling it against the insides of my teeth. Until I learned my lesson, that is. *lol* One day, I was hiking with a friend and flicked it off the top of my mouth... whipping it right down on the tip of a bottom front tooth... POW! It took a noticeable chip out of the tooth. Brilliant move, eh?

Aside from learning I shouldn't be careless with it, I actually did love having the piercing. Then again, I've always had an oral fixation and it played right into that.

So, PSA Heather: careful where you swing your balls.

 

[lovecraft68]

Sounds to me like the "dinosaurs" are not the only ones given to making blanket judgments...

I think the real impetus for getting tats is to identify to the world visually that you're a Bad Boy or a Bad Girl without actually having to go through the bother of being "bad"... but that's just one man's opinion...

You missed the point entirely thereby making it.

The point is tattoos are no longer about being "bad" they are seen as artwork and a way of expression these days.

Unless you think 19 year old girls are bad asses.

And if you're mired in what "bad" is , it seems less of an opinion of a man, but a boy.


Just my opinion.

 

[Catchalot]

I think the real impetus for getting tats is to identify to the world visually that you're a Bad Boy or a Bad Girl without actually having to go through the bother of being "bad"... but that's just one man's opinion...

An opinion based on total ignorance, but an opinion just the same.

 

[sr71plt]

And you miss the point, LC, that you can't speak for the "seer" in this outside of a warehouse environment in a U.S. state the size of a postage stamp. From my observation, Cold Diesel has it right in terms of the greater population. Very few sets of small-group environments in the world I inhabit lionize the benefit to their social and economic well-being of tattoos that can't be covered by clothing in the office and marketplace environment. And I have no doubt I've been around in the greater world a whole lot more than you have.

 

[lovecraft68]

And you miss the point, LC, that you can't speak for the "seer" in this outside of a warehouse environment in a U.S. state the size of a postage stamp. From my observation, Cold Diesel has it right in terms of the greater population. Very few sets of small-group environments in the world I inhabit lionize the benefit to their social and economic well-being of tattoos that can't be covered by clothing in the office and marketplace environment. And I have no doubt I've been around in the greater world a whole lot more than you have.

And the world at large is a lot more accepting of everything then it used to be. Or do you not recall the time when being gay would stop someone from getting a job?

hell being a woman back in your day could stop a woman from getting a certain job.

And let's not get into where the blacks were when ignorant assholes liek you were in their prime.

because that's the funny thing. People your age grew up in a time where nothing different was acceptable. It was just a bunch of silver spooned little preppies who's daddy paid their way through life deciding who got to do what and where and when.

Its the people of my age and of course mostly the recent generation who've changed the ignorance your age wallowed in.

You grew up in a prejudiced sexist time when you protected yourselves because you were afraid of everything else that was different.

Guess what? Things have changed, but you have not. Guess Daddy should have put you in the real world instead of hiding you from it. And spare me where you claim you've been., No one believes you and even those who might could care less.

You're an arrogant prick who looks down his nose at everybody and everything and a presumptuous old fool.

The world is a better place now because the old school ignorant boys club you grew up has very little say in it now.

The kind of thinking you were raised in went the way of the dodo long ago.

Good thing too, I'd hate to have my daughters come home with an ignorant prick like you.

 

[RoyceConnors]

I have to wonder if ALL the servicemen who got tats symbolizing their tours of duty, navy most notably, would be considered the low-lifes of society?
Mainstream accepted men w/earrings long ago, yet it was as taboo a thing to do back then. Those multi-million dollar a year tattoed athletes sure don't look like low lifes when they hire your ass and give you a job, even though to them, you look like a fucking moron when you look like a J C Penney mannequin.

The only difference in today's piercings, are that they've moved from the traditional to the expressionist stage. Nose piercings have been done for centuries in India to denote wealth and status, not to mention Henna tattoos.

Western culture is one of compliance, where others are traditionally and culturally motivated beyond accepted beauty. Foot binding in China, head shaping, neck elongating and so on are all beautifying techniques those cultures have practised for centuries.

Once all the fashion mags and tv shows bring it to a focus, it becomes more of the norm.

 

[lovecraft68]

I always thought that writers-and other creative types-were open minded.

But apparently to some here A has to lead to B because by god that is the way it is.

What a bunch of prejudiced better than little shits we have around here.

Then again where else do they have to go?

 

[jomar]

A reason? None in particular. I just never explored much. I've been a part of this site for over six years at least. I stuck to the playground, and the general board mostly.

No way! You must post under a different username. No playgrounder has less than 10,000 posts each quarter!

 

[RoyceConnors]

I always thought that writers-and other creative types-were open minded.

But apparently to some here A has to lead to B because by god that is the way it is.

What a bunch of prejudiced better than little shits we have around here.

Then again where else do they have to go?

Nothing more than Sheeple moving along to the barking dogs. Those dogs will die and the new dogs will chew them up if they don't move the way they want them to move now.

I liked being the kid on the block who had new cool stuff. I liked being the first one to have it, or try it. If it wasn't going to kill me, I was in. I was taught life was supposed to be as much fun as you could make it and there would always be those that try and hold you back and remain 'normal'.

Some might have been to different places, but they've never lived life yet and only observed it.

 

[SecondCircle]

I've used several characters that had tattoos. Mainly because it fit them. Tattoos often tell stories about the character, and characters tell the stories. It's the same as choosing clothing for a character, or the color they dyed their hair. These things may not be explained in full detail in the story, but when I breathe life into that character, it's all there. Why does he dress that way? What is his background? Why does she color her hair that way? What sort of emotion made her wanna change her hair color? Why pierce her nipples? Does that speak volumes about her tastes in the sheets? That dreamcatcher and deer skull on her arm... what does that mean? Why did she get it? Where was she when she got it? What period of her life was she going through? Or those crossed rifles on his wrist?

I don't spell all that out in the story, no. But the answers are there in my head when I conjure that character up. To me, they are living breathing creatures, and every choice every style every slash of ink on their arm speaks to their reality... so to speak. These attributes are subtly present in the story, just like dialect or POV outlook are. But I leave them like breadcrumbs, puzzle pieces for the reader to put together, that they might discover the character for themselves rather than be told who they are.

The morality issue? I dunno. Everyone is right, in their own way here. I can agree that in society (especially in the workplace) appearances matter a lot. It speaks volumes as to how you conduct yourself and handle yourself. And where "customers" are concerned, I know there's a lot of people out there that make snap decisions on the appearance of someone who was say... arresting them or performing surgery on them. I can admit that I have looked at a guy who was tatt'd up and made judgements of his character. And I have no illusions of my chances of walking in to a job interview with tats exposed or something, thinking that professional on the other side of the desk isn't gonna be taking note of the ink and my personal character.

Yeah, but. But I know people with full sleeves that are hard working and dedicated to their work. They have good manners, are respectful, polite, and honest. They get shit done at their job, and not just from the entry level. They are managers, supervisors, etc.

There's a guy I work with, actually, who sports sleeves. Now he understood the state of the world as I do, and knew that people may be taken back by appearances. That his tats might be offensive. Being mature, he recognized this and for a long time wore long sleeves to hide them for his profession. No one even knew he had tats. That was key actually. People loved him because he was damn good at what he did, had great manners and people skills, yada yada. Anyone that saw him outside of work was shocked to see the pyramids on his back or the squid headed creature on his bicep. (Both of which were drawn from literary fiction that he loved.) But at that point, no one gave a shit. Those tattoos meant nothing, when it came to his character. Not as it pertained to profession or work ethic. Turns out, the guy just liked the artwork and was passionate about what inspired them. (And his kids loved Mr. Squid. He'd tell em a different story about the character on his arm all the time.)

Point being, at one time, yes tattoos were the thing of gangs, criminals, bikers, etc. In many cases, yes they still are. I have no illusions that they aren't. And you still have guys and gals that get them to make a statement to be "badass". Many jobs and their customers don't like tatt'd characters because of those underlying character "flaws" that could be insinuated by such markings. And that is the reality of things today.

But I think things are slowly moving away from that. Newer generations are understanding that tats don't ALWAYS have to carry those meanings. Everyone that has tats aren't bad. Some still are, sure. Not all. That's the mistake we make when we look at someone. We assume because one character was wretched for having Dyed hair, tattoos, business suits, flannel shirts, or whatever, that every single one is. It's just not the case with tats now. I know scumbags that have tats, and I know absolutely fantastic people with tats. I also no great people without them, and complete shitbags without them as well. Am I to assume because I knew a shitbag without tats, that ALL people without them are to be avoided?

I think it's because people get tats for different reasons now. Reasons that are artful, thoughtful, and meaningful. Not just because they are "scum". People really love the way they look. Slowly, it's being accepted as such. It's just a thing that I think will evolve into it's own place as to what's socially acceptable and at what levels. To me, right now, there's no "its right this way" or "right that way." It is what it is now, was what it was, and eventually will be whatever society chooses it will be.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I always thought that writers-and other creative types-were open minded.

But apparently to some here A has to lead to B because by god that is the way it is.

What a bunch of prejudiced better than little shits we have around here.

Then again where else do they have to go?

And I'm their king.

You got it 1/2 right, what we got around here are the prejudiced shit-stains like me, and the prejudiced shit-stains like you. Both of us have clipboards filled with checklists of what's OK and what's required. In JBJ WORLD a tat is a deal breaker if youre female and white trash tacky if youre male. My old man had tats, I thought they were disgustingly trashy. I still do. I'm a snob, youre a snob.

My prejudices work for me. In my youth guys with tats were ex-cons (my old man did some hard time at Raiford...it was stupid...he was passed out in the car when his pals held up a liquor store). And all his associates were ex-cons, and all had tats. And none of it has changed in 60 years. Folks with tats are ex-cons or wanna be.

 

[BurningMonkey]

But apparently to some here A has to lead to B because by god that is the way it is.

What a bunch of prejudiced better than little shits we have around here.

Then again where else do they have to go?

Don't sugarcoat it...tell us how you REALLY feel.

And I note that YOU'RE here, and seem to be here a lot...
So what does that say about you?

 

[BurningMonkey]

Its the people of my age and of course mostly the recent generation who've changed the ignorance your age wallowed in.

Rebellion is like sex: every new generation thinks they invented it.

What I mean by "bad" (which you didn't bother to ascertain before shooting off your mouth) is "alternative", "edgy", "rebellious".

The Bad Boys when I was growing up were the James Dean and Marlon Brando types, the "rebels". The Bad Girls were the ones who were not sweet and conventional--and who, not incidentally, could be expected to Put Out if you were lucky.

It has nothing to do with "bad asses", it has everything to do with saying, "Hey! I'm different! I don't follow society's norms!"

And I hold to my original statement: The main impetus behind getting yourself inked all over is to proclaim to the world your lack of respect for the "rules" and your ability and willingness to go outside conventional norms.

But eventually the rebellious becomes the mainstream, and then a new icon must be found to identify the "alternative" lifestyle. Tats and piercings will follow this meme even as the rolled-down nylons of the 20's and the long hair of the 60's did.

In the meantime, I still find it unattractive in male or female.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Tats are common during the 1920s but useless before 1918 when female bodies were covered from head to toe. Still, you wont find a tat on any female celebrity until recently.

 

[SecondCircle]

Rebellion is like sex: every new generation thinks they invented it.

What I mean by "bad" (which you didn't bother to ascertain before shooting off your mouth) is "alternative", "edgy", "rebellious".

The Bad Boys when I was growing up were the James Dean and Marlon Brando types, the "rebels". The Bad Girls were the ones who were not sweet and conventional--and who, not incidentally, could be expected to Put Out if you were lucky.

It has nothing to do with "bad asses", it has everything to do with saying, "Hey! I'm different! I don't follow society's norms!"

And I hold to my original statement: The main impetus behind getting yourself inked all over is to proclaim to the world your lack of respect for the "rules" and your ability and willingness to go outside conventional norms.

But eventually the rebellious becomes the mainstream, and then a new icon must be found to identify the "alternative" lifestyle. Tats and piercings will follow this meme even as the rolled-down nylons of the 20's and the long hair of the 60's did.

In the meantime, I still find it unattractive in male or female.

That's a pretty accurate take on things, IMO. Especially about going outside of social norms.

From what I see though, social norms are constantly changing because like you said, what was once edgy or rebellious becomes commonplace. With tats, more often now (in my experience, no blanket statements here) people are getting tats because they like the way they look, want to get something symbolic to remember someone by, want to remember and organization they were a member of, express their enthusiasm for a subject they love (music, movies, literature, etc.) or any reasons like these.

That "break the rules" thing kinda doesn't always factor much anymore. When my wife's friend got a tattoo recently, she put a lot of thought into the symbolism. Like a painting or something. Each subject inked in the scene meant something different to her, and was kind of an expression of her. (Loss of parents, struggle, strength). She's not really the type to wanna do something because its breaking the rules, and I don't really remember that sort of attitude factoring in to her decision to get a tattoo.

But I think her uniform or dress code or whatever keeps her arm hidden usually. And she understands that people treat her differently when they see the ink, even if they never ask what it really means to her.

I do believe that a tattoo is a choice that should be made carefully, at least how things are now. If you choose to express yourself that way, for all to see, you have to be prepared FOR the people that see it. But that goes for a lot of things.

And to me, tattoos aren't one way or another. JBJ thinks they look trashy. That's fine. I think baggy clothing looks trashy. Some people think men or women with tats are hot, for others its the opposite. That's just taste. I don't really think anyone can be right or wrong on that.

 

[BurningMonkey]

Well said, SecondCircle.

 

[Catchalot]

Rebellion is like sex: every new generation thinks they invented it.

What I mean by "bad" (which you didn't bother to ascertain before shooting off your mouth) is "alternative", "edgy", "rebellious".

The Bad Boys when I was growing up were the James Dean and Marlon Brando types, the "rebels". The Bad Girls were the ones who were not sweet and conventional--and who, not incidentally, could be expected to Put Out if you were lucky.

It has nothing to do with "bad asses", it has everything to do with saying, "Hey! I'm different! I don't follow society's norms!"

And I hold to my original statement: The main impetus behind getting yourself inked all over is to proclaim to the world your lack of respect for the "rules" and your ability and willingness to go outside conventional norms.

But eventually the rebellious becomes the mainstream, and then a new icon must be found to identify the "alternative" lifestyle. Tats and piercings will follow this meme even as the rolled-down nylons of the 20's and the long hair of the 60's did.

In the meantime, I still find it unattractive in male or female.

Wow, talk about a lack of tolerance and understanding.

 

[jomar]

I dunno...your doctor, lawyer and CEO May have a tattoo, but in the white collar world it won't be visible during work hours. That's just the way it is. I recall seeing a documentary where an artist inked her arm and hand...she did it so she would follow her art and never have a corporate job.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

In the grocery store this morning saw Bozo the Clown dressed in Leopard dot pajamas. Mom was with her. Moms hair was about equal parts blonde and dark roots grown out. Bozo looked 18 maybe and had a 3 year old. Bozo's hair was about equal parts red and dark roots grown out.

 

[BurningMonkey]

Wow, talk about a lack of tolerance and understanding.

I'm sorry, but tolerance has nothing to do with what tattoos mean or signify.
Do I lack understanding? Probably. But then I don't understand the attraction of hockey as a sport, either. *shrug* I'll live.

People like what they like. That doesn't ipso facto mean that I have to like it, too, just because they do.