Successful Monogamy

[cookiecat]

KimGordon's poly thread has me thinking about possibilities as I begin dating again. I've always been monogamous for a bunch of reasons. Feels safer emotionally, I don't have a ton of energy to give to more than one person, as a submissive, I want to be devoted to just one. But is poly something I should be open to? I don't know the answer yet.

I found this list on tumblr and I wondered if I've really matured past some of the reasons I used to insist on monogamy: insecurity, jealousy, needing to be validated.

In light of PLP's question about cucking and hot wife in the "Inquiring Minds" thread (found here: https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=1482371&page=116) I thought it might be a good time to post this.

What is your take on this list?

https://i.imgur.com/q5RmVjpl.jpg

 

[Bramblethorn]

That list looks pretty good overall.

However, the moral for me is not "everybody ought to be poly" but "this is why it's fine to be poly, if that's what works for you". It's perfectly legit for somebody to decide that they accept all of the principles in that list, and still choose monogamy (or indeed celibacy) because it works better for them.

Some people are multi-taskers. Some aren't.

Poly discourse tends to focus a bit on what the ideal, well-adjusted person with no hangups ought to feel. This is worth exploring, but at the same time, worth remembering that none of us are that person. I've run into more than one person who convinced themselves that poly was The Way To Go at an intellectual level, but still had massive hangups about it that they weren't being honest about - to themselves or to anybody else - and that did a lot of damage to the people around them.

Poly works for me, give or take the usual allotment of drama that's part of the human condition. It has advantages and disadvantages compared to monogamy, and it's definitely worth considering, especially when you're at a stage where you're re-evaluating relationship approaches anyway. But I'd hate for anybody to feel like "I ought to be poly."

footnote: the whole "each person needs to own their own emotions and insecurities" bit is important, but it's also one that sometimes gets invoked by poly people who are just being selfish assholes.

 

[TheWhiteBull]

In my humble opinion, both monogamy and polyamory are each going to work for some people and not for others. That tumblr list is stating a lot of views on monogamy that I have never had and I’ve been with the same woman for 12 years. I think if you’ve reached a point in your life where you feel like giving poly a shot then you should, while recognizing that it’s still a relationship involving more than one human with another and therefore just as likely to suffer problems as any other form of relationship people can have.

 

[UsuallyPresent]

Seems to me that much of that list applies to polygamy as well as monogamy or polyandry.

"the idea that a sufficiently intense love is enough to overcome any practical incompatibilities" certainly applies to all of 'em. The 'true love' meme can be toxic regardless of how many people are involved.

"the idea you should meet your partner's every need, and if you don't, you're either inadequate or they're too needy" is more of a D/s thing, isn't it? Sure, you can add D/s to any relationship type, but IMO it's a different 'layer' to the relationship.

"the idea that your insecurities are always your partner's responsibility to tip toe around and never your responsibility to work on" - Sounds a lot like either a good BDSM relationship or, if excessive, perhaps topping from the bottom.

"your value to a partner is directly proportional to the amount of time and energy they spend on you..." certainly crosses the mono/poly boundaries, and is already partially covered under the 'jealousy' tag higher in the list.

*shrug* Seems to me to be partially thought out, but missing the backside of the arguments being applicable in more than the intended direction. YMMV

 

[Jada59]

Hmmm... I can't really say that I'm either or. Most of my relationships have been long term ones, but I never like to stay in a bad relationship. I did try marriage. It was such a bad one, I doubt I would get married again. I did want out. He just wouldn't let me out. Until finally he changed his mind and set me free.

While I have many online play partners, IRL, I would probably only ever be with one person at a time. I might date several at the same time but would not have sex with more than one.

The idea of being with two or more men at the same time does sound appealing. I just don't think I could do it from an emotional standpoint.

Jealousy? I don't get it. I don't understand it at all. It's just not in me to be that way. I did have one BF that I was exclusive to. He was not exclusive to me and I knew it. I didn't care. Thing was, it began eating away at him to the point where he confessed it to me. I didn't consider it cheating because I knew. I say "knew", not because I had proof. I just knew. My friends did see him around with other women. They told me and wanted me to dump him. I didn't. In the end, he dumped both me and the other woman. Took up with yet another. It was good while it lasted. I don't regret it at all.

Now my ex husband... He did cheat! I knew it. I had proof. Lots and lots of proof. He tried to gaslight me and my dad. Told us we were crazy. Now that we're divorced, he not only admits to the cheating but boasts about it.

To me, honesty is the best thing. If he is with another and tells me of it, then I appreciate that. I don't necessarily want to hear what they did in bed though. That doesn't really turn me on!

I suppose I would like a man to be exclusive to me. But would it last? I don't know. I see myself as learning and evolving and sometimes I outgrow people.

I had a sad thing happen about a year ago. There was a guy I knew from elsewhere who shall remain nameless. We never met in person but his wife found out we had been talking. She broke us up.

Many years had passed. He found me again here. We were overjoyed! But his wife stuck in the back of my mind. Turned out she didn't even factor in. After reconnecting, he felt so much had happened in my life and I had moved forward where he had not.

Misery brought us together. I escaped that. He sank further into it.

 

[KimGordon67]

KimGordon's poly thread has me thinking about possibilities as I begin dating again. I've always been monogamous for a bunch of reasons. Feels safer emotionally, I don't have a ton of energy to give to more than one person, as a submissive, I want to be devoted to just one. But is poly something I should be open to? I don't know the answer yet.

I found this list on tumblr and I wondered if I've really matured past some of the reasons I used to insist on monogamy: insecurity, jealousy, needing to be validated.

In light of PLP's question about cucking and hot wife in the "Inquiring Minds" thread (found here: https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=1482371&page=116) I thought it might be a good time to post this.

What is your take on this list?

https://i.imgur.com/q5RmVjpl.jpg

I've been thinking a lot about love lately, in part because I'm coming out of a relationship in which I thought we really loved each other but just had a lot of problems, but in retrospect I'm thinking that a lot of what looked like 'love' was actually borderline emotional abuse.
Markers like jealousy and needing to be validated are, for me, more about 'you' (I mean that in a generic sense, not any 'you' in this thread) rather than the other person. For me, love is wanting the other person to have the best - even if sometimes you not the person to give them that. Sometimes it might be their friend or their kid or their hairdresser or another lover.

I'm also the most freaking monogamous 'polyamorous' person on the planet. All theory, no action.
Maybe just approach the future open to whatever happens?

 

[Jada59]

I've been thinking a lot about love lately, in part because I'm coming out of a relationship in which I thought we really loved each other but just had a lot of problems, but in retrospect I'm thinking that a lot of what looked like 'love' was actually borderline emotional abuse.
Markers like jealousy and needing to be validated are, for me, more about 'you' (I mean that in a generic sense, not any 'you' in this thread) rather than the other person. For me, love is wanting the other person to have the best - even if sometimes you not the person to give them that. Sometimes it might be their friend or their kid or their hairdresser or another lover.

I'm also the most freaking monogamous 'polyamorous' person on the planet. All theory, no action.
Maybe just approach the future open to whatever happens?

I agree with you about what love is.

Jealousy is a big turn off to me. I see it with the pets. I have two cats. My gardener has a little dog. Same size as the cats. When I pet the dog, my one cat gets very jealous. She scratches, hits, bites, etc. The other cat is fine. She knows I will pet them all equally.

I did not coin this phrase but... Love doesn't divide. It multiples.

 

[yukonnights]

I saw this list the other day too. It includes some good indicators of "toxic" emotions and behavior, but I'm not sure I'm ready to buy into the idea or term of normalized toxic monogamy as a general principle. Humans are just simply too diverse to make a list like this and make it stick to such a broad "group".

Personally, I believe I have the capacity to love many people if we were compatible and built a deep a connection. My lifelong mate however is just wired for monogamy. She's not opposed to me trying to find others, it's just not of any interest to her. My take on this is petty much the same as all other sexual desires/interests/kinks — every human is unique at a deep core level. My belief is that we don't really have a lot of say in the hard wiring of a lot of what we like or dislike.

In the end, I also think we know the truth most of the time. Sometimes we ignore that small voice in the quest of a new thrill...but the voice inside is usually there if we listen.

Poly relationships are still relationships and the more in a relationship the more opportunities there are for conflict, miscommunication and misunderstanding. In my experience, just one other person brings issues I have to juggle to try to keep everyone happy (including myself). I've tried it several times and they have all ended up being too much of a drain. But I admit to having a low tolerance for drama.

In the end; The saying; "Nothing ventured, nothing gained", is still pretty good advice. I also think it's better to try and fail than to grow old and wonder — what if?

 

[TarnishedPenny]

I must agree with WB, UP and YN.

IMO, the list defines problems inherent to the human psyche. That somebody linked that list to monogamy simply shows that that individual has had problems in that area. Another might have had the same problems in an exclusive poly relationship or in a completely open one.

 

[KimGordon67]

I must agree with WB, UP and YN.

IMO, the list defines problems inherent to the human psyche. That somebody linked that list to monogamy simply shows that that individual has had problems in that area. Another might have had the same problems in an exclusive poly relationship or in a completely open one.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with that - there is a narrative built up around monogamy that results in non-monogamous people being seen as somehow morally suspicious. I think the things in that list are limit cases, but they're kind of the extreme ends of concepts that are part of the 'monogamy is right' discourse. I don't think those idea are inherent to monogamy per se (and the author of the list qualifies the type of monogamy they are talking about as 'toxic monogamy', in the same way the concept of 'toxic masculinity' doesn't refer to ALL masculinity, just particular versions).
I'm personally surprised at how often jealousy, for example, is offered as some sort of 'proof' of love.

 

[Mei5ter]

I'm not sure I understand why most of these faults solely form a critique of monogamy, rather than any other form of relationship.

Why does a monogamous relationship have to involve jealousy?
Why does blind faith in love to conquer all have to be exclusive to monogamous relationships?
Why does one individual have to meet their partner's every need? Why should my soul mate be the same person I go for a beer with to watch a game and talk about nothing much? Why can't I have friends?
Why can't I be attracted to someone, but make my choice whether to act on that attraction?
Asking whether commitment necessarily involves exclusivity depends on the nature of that commitment. No more.
Why on earth should monogamy be inextricably linked with procreation? Can't heterosexual couples choose otherwise? Can't homosexual couples be monogamous?
Why does monogamy mean partners have no responsibilities for self improvement?
Why is time the sole currency of value in a relationship? Quality or quantity?
Why should anyone's self worth be linked, negatively, to the approval from partners in a monogamous relationship but not polygamous ones? Why can't self worth come from other sources, in either case?

This is a series of straw men. It neither provides an adequate critique of monogamy, nor shows why polygamy would improve things. And I say that as someone open to the idea of polygamy...

 

[TheWhiteBull]

I'm not sure I entirely agree with that - there is a narrative built up around monogamy that results in non-monogamous people being seen as somehow morally suspicious. I think the things in that list are limit cases, but they're kind of the extreme ends of concepts that are part of the 'monogamy is right' discourse. I don't think those idea are inherent to monogamy per se (and the author of the list qualifies the type of monogamy they are talking about as 'toxic monogamy', in the same way the concept of 'toxic masculinity' doesn't refer to ALL masculinity, just particular versions).
I'm personally surprised at how often jealousy, for example, is offered as some sort of 'proof' of love.

If we were living even a few decades ago I would agree more with commonplace narratives about monogamy but I don’t think that traditional views on monogamy are as dominant as they used to be. The idea of a “soul mate” I do believe can be detrimental to many people’s views of their own relationships but again, I don’t think as many people believe in it any more as they used to.

I also think jealousy can be an indicator of love even if it isn’t particularly healthy. To put it this way, I think if someone is jealous that you are attracted to other people, or if they know you are and encourage it because they want you to be happy then both of those people care for you (albeit in different ways). On the other hand, someone who is apathetic and doesn’t care who you sleep with outside of them because they only care about what they get from you.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I'm not sure I understand why most of these faults solely form a critique of monogamy, rather than any other form of relationship.

Why does a monogamous relationship have to involve jealousy?
Why does blind faith in love to conquer all have to be exclusive to monogamous relationships?
Why does one individual have to meet their partner's every need? Why should my soul mate be the same person I go for a beer with to watch a game and talk about nothing much? Why can't I have friends?
Why can't I be attracted to someone, but make my choice whether to act on that attraction?
Asking whether commitment necessarily involves exclusivity depends on the nature of that commitment. No more.
Why on earth should monogamy be inextricably linked with procreation? Can't heterosexual couples choose otherwise? Can't homosexual couples be monogamous?
Why does monogamy mean partners have no responsibilities for self improvement?
Why is time the sole currency of value in a relationship? Quality or quantity?
Why should anyone's self worth be linked, negatively, to the approval from partners in a monogamous relationship but not polygamous ones? Why can't self worth come from other sources, in either case?

This is a series of straw men. It neither provides an adequate critique of monogamy, nor shows why polygamy would improve things. And I say that as someone open to the idea of polygamy...

It doesn't do those things because it's not trying to do them. It's not attempting to argue that monogamy is bad and that poly is better.

It's discussing *one particular form* of monogamy which happens to be (a) toxic, (b) influential, and (c) very anti-poly, because it's hard to hold those particular beliefs and still think poly is okay.

I close my eyes
And see you before me
Think I would die
If you were to ignore me
A fool could see
Just how much I adore you
I get down on my knees
I'd do anything for you

I don't want anybody else
When I think about you
I touch myself
I don't want anybody else
Oh no, oh no, oh no

Hey Joe, where you goin' with that gun of yours?
Hey Joe, I said where you goin' with that gun in your hand, oh
I'm goin' down to shoot my old lady
You know I caught her messin' 'round with another man

I'd rather see you dead, little girl
Than to be with another man
You'd better keep your head, little girl
Or you won't know where I am

Many monogamous relationships don't follow those beliefs. But they are very influential in pop culture - not just the extreme "if your woman cheats, kill her" variety but also subtler versions of the idea that true love means getting married and making babies and doing everything together.

Anybody who's polyamorous and not in the closet about it inevitably runs into criticisms along those lines.

Once upon a time, my partner and I were having problems in our own relationship. The root causes weren't particularly poly-related - I'd recently lost a family member and was still grieving, we'd moved to a new town and my partner was feeling isolated, both of us were dealing with issues related to as-yet-undiagnosed autism, yada yada yada. So we did the grown-up thing and went to a relationship counsellor and told her the score. Somewhere along the way, we let slip that we were poly, because that was peripherally related to one of the specific situations where we'd had a conflict.

Oh boy.

She latched onto that one topic. She decided that us being poly was the key to the whole thing, that it must be an expression of insecurity and dysfunction for us to be loving other people.

At a point in our life when my partner and I were arguing about a lot of things, when it wasn't clear that we were going to stay together, we both told her that, no, this wasn't the situation and not what we needed to be discussing with her. We wanted to talk about stuff like how we resolve conflicts between my wants and my partner's wants and -

nope. THIS is what we have to talk about. Until you acknowledge that being poly is sick, you're not going to make progress, etc. etc.

It went on for an hour. My partner was in tears by the end of it and this fucking counsellor still wasn't letting up. And she had the temerity to charge us for the experience. The only thing I can say for it is that the experience maybe brought us a little closer together, because it reminded us that whatever our differences were with one another, at least we weren't as obnoxious and wrong as that fucking counsellor.

More recently, I was going overseas, and meeting up with an internet friend who'd been flirting with me. There was a possibility that we might end up in bed - with my partner's blessing - so I went to my doctor to get STI testing, because that's a routine part of the precautions I take, and I had to sit through fifteen minutes of Why Monogamy Is Better and Watch Out For Skanky People, Like The Ones With Tattoos, You Know.

(Seriously, he said that. I decided this maybe wasn't the best moment to mention that I also have a tattoo.)

Because of this kind of bullshit, every time I talk to a health professional - physical or mental - I have to think through whether I'm going to disclose or not, because that kind of judgement is depressingly common, and I don't feel like paying for the privilege of being lectured by somebody who is working from exactly the kind of assumptions discussed in the list Cookie posted.

That's where this is coming from. It's not "mono sucks and you should all be poly like us". It's "this particular form of mono sucks, both for the people involved in it and for the poly people who have to deal with its bullshit".

(sorry if that got a bit ranty, but I'm very tired of having to second-guess every interaction with people who are paid to be helping me, while dudes who sing about murdering their exes are still celebrated)

 

[jaF0]

as I begin dating again.

I will never do that.

I am done with people.

 

[jaF0]

In my humble opinion, both monogamy and polyamory are each going to work for some people and not for others.

And for others, neither will work.

 

[Mei5ter]

It doesn't do those things because it's not trying to do them. It's not attempting to argue that monogamy is bad and that poly is better.

It's discussing *one particular form* of monogamy which happens to be (a) toxic, (b) influential, and (c) very anti-poly, because it's hard to hold those particular beliefs and still think poly is okay.

I close my eyes
And see you before me
Think I would die
If you were to ignore me
A fool could see
Just how much I adore you
I get down on my knees
I'd do anything for you

I don't want anybody else
When I think about you
I touch myself
I don't want anybody else
Oh no, oh no, oh no

Hey Joe, where you goin' with that gun of yours?
Hey Joe, I said where you goin' with that gun in your hand, oh
I'm goin' down to shoot my old lady
You know I caught her messin' 'round with another man

I'd rather see you dead, little girl
Than to be with another man
You'd better keep your head, little girl
Or you won't know where I am

Many monogamous relationships don't follow those beliefs. But they are very influential in pop culture - not just the extreme "if your woman cheats, kill her" variety but also subtler versions of the idea that true love means getting married and making babies and doing everything together.

Anybody who's polyamorous and not in the closet about it inevitably runs into criticisms along those lines.

Once upon a time, my partner and I were having problems in our own relationship. The root causes weren't particularly poly-related - I'd recently lost a family member and was still grieving, we'd moved to a new town and my partner was feeling isolated, both of us were dealing with issues related to as-yet-undiagnosed autism, yada yada yada. So we did the grown-up thing and went to a relationship counsellor and told her the score. Somewhere along the way, we let slip that we were poly, because that was peripherally related to one of the specific situations where we'd had a conflict.

Oh boy.

She latched onto that one topic. She decided that us being poly was the key to the whole thing, that it must be an expression of insecurity and dysfunction for us to be loving other people.

At a point in our life when my partner and I were arguing about a lot of things, when it wasn't clear that we were going to stay together, we both told her that, no, this wasn't the situation and not what we needed to be discussing with her. We wanted to talk about stuff like how we resolve conflicts between my wants and my partner's wants and -

nope. THIS is what we have to talk about. Until you acknowledge that being poly is sick, you're not going to make progress, etc. etc.

It went on for an hour. My partner was in tears by the end of it and this fucking counsellor still wasn't letting up. And she had the temerity to charge us for the experience. The only thing I can say for it is that the experience maybe brought us a little closer together, because it reminded us that whatever our differences were with one another, at least we weren't as obnoxious and wrong as that fucking counsellor.

More recently, I was going overseas, and meeting up with an internet friend who'd been flirting with me. There was a possibility that we might end up in bed - with my partner's blessing - so I went to my doctor to get STI testing, because that's a routine part of the precautions I take, and I had to sit through fifteen minutes of Why Monogamy Is Better and Watch Out For Skanky People, Like The Ones With Tattoos, You Know.

(Seriously, he said that. I decided this maybe wasn't the best moment to mention that I also have a tattoo.)

Because of this kind of bullshit, every time I talk to a health professional - physical or mental - I have to think through whether I'm going to disclose or not, because that kind of judgement is depressingly common, and I don't feel like paying for the privilege of being lectured by somebody who is working from exactly the kind of assumptions discussed in the list Cookie posted.

That's where this is coming from. It's not "mono sucks and you should all be poly like us". It's "this particular form of mono sucks, both for the people involved in it and for the poly people who have to deal with its bullshit".

(sorry if that got a bit ranty, but I'm very tired of having to second-guess every interaction with people who are paid to be helping me, while dudes who sing about murdering their exes are still celebrated)

Not ranty at all. I read it several times and am still thinking about what you've said.

I suppose it's personal experience. The definition of toxic monogamy basically sounds like Maria by Tony Christie,which is a cheesy, ridiculous and slightly grotesque song from nearly fifty years ago. I don't think I've ever encountered anyone who has seriously held the bizarre combination of views described in the OP. It's the implicit rejection of the validity of homosexual relationships which I find most glaring. But maybe that's just me.

And to repeat, I'd agree that many of the features in the OP are toxic. I just don't see why many of them are inherently connected with monogamy.

Oh...and trying to explain the difference between marks caused on partners in the context of a loving sadomasochistic relationship, and those caused by domestic violence... that gets tiresome too. I'm sorry you've had such a hard time getting people to listen to you, especially when you articulate it so clearly.

 

[Acktion]

~ snip ~

(sorry if that got a bit ranty, but I'm very tired of having to second-guess every interaction with people who are paid to be helping me, while dudes who sing about murdering their exes are still celebrated)

FUCK YES!

Sorry, but this reminded me of a time in college when I developed a wart on my penis that had to be removed. Went in to have it frozen off, and had to sit through this fucking lecture from a sanctimonious pissant. I was not only fucking monogamous but had only had sex with one girl who I was engaged to who'd had sex with one other guy before me that she was engaged to and had broken it off and didn't know that she was a carrier.

I swear, I would rather die of whatever than listen to some of these seagulls squawk and shit all over something they don't have a fucking clue about and can't be assed to find out a damn thing about before going on a fucking rant at me.


Oops. Sorry. We were talking about poly, mono, and ethical non-mono (which isn't the same as poly, damn it!)

I know I'm a weird as fuck duck, but I just don't have any problems with any arrangement that people choose so long as it is all above board. No sneaking around and lying about shit. Either work it out or walk it off.

I guess maybe that is because I was reading Heinlein while the rest of my age cohort was still working on "s-s-s-seeeeee sp-sp-spot..." "Oh, for fuck's sake! Can I go to the library or something?! I'll be back before he finishes this sentence." (And, yes. I got beat up a lot. And not undeservedly so.)

But, yeah... as long as any potential resultant progeny are cared for and disease is watched for, I just never have seen a problem with any or all configurations that make people happy.

I can't say that I've ever purposefully sought non-monogamy or polygamy. It just... in my limited understanding, it just doesn't work that way. At least not for me. Then again, neither does monogamy.

What I mean is, that I don't... have not ever... gone out with the thought in mind to look for someone. Well, except for one time, which the less said, probably the better. Each of my relationships (with that one exception) have just... developed organically. Sometimes when I was alone and perfectly content that way. Sometimes when I was with someone else and perfectly content with them.


As far as jealousy... to be honest, I'm not certain that I've ever understood just exactly what jealousy is. I've been accused of being jealous. But, it didn't make sense with what people were describing jealousy as.

I had a need. And the person who was, supposedly, on board with helping me with my need wasn't. Because they were seeking to have their need met with someone else. After three times that this occurred, I tried to check with them if we still were even a thing, if they still had any interest in helping me with my need and allowing me to help them with theirs. Any frustration that I felt was due to my feeling that I must have misunderstood something somewhere.

I have never in my life felt the need to do violence to someone because they chose someone else instead of me. (Lots of other reasons, sure. But, not that.) If they aren't interested in me, then why the fuck would I want them? And if I truly loved them, then I would want them to do what made them happy. Even if that wasn't with me. And if I wanted them to be miserable with me, then I didn't really love them, so what the fuck were we doing in the first place?

***shrug***

I don't know. I'm old enough to know that I know very little other than that I don't know much.

But, the way I figure it, if I wasn't invited into their sandbox, then it's none of my damn business who was. Or how many. If I've invited people into my sandbox, then they can either play nice or get the fuck out. And, conversely, if I was invited to their sandbox, I can either play nice or take my pail and shovel and go play with it myself in my own sandbox.

 

[Misshotndeep]

KimGordon's poly thread has me thinking about possibilities as I begin dating again. I've always been monogamous for a bunch of reasons. Feels safer emotionally, I don't have a ton of energy to give to more than one person, as a submissive, I want to be devoted to just one. But is poly something I should be open to? I don't know the answer yet.

I found this list on tumblr and I wondered if I've really matured past some of the reasons I used to insist on monogamy: insecurity, jealousy, needing to be validated.

In light of PLP's question about cucking and hot wife in the "Inquiring Minds" thread (found here: https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=1482371&page=116) I thought it might be a good time to post this.

What is your take on this list?

https://i.imgur.com/q5RmVjpl.jpg

That list if fucked up in so many ways. That kinda thinking is why I left my second husband.

 

[ReaperW]

.....

 

[Bramblethorn]

Not ranty at all. I read it several times and am still thinking about what you've said.

I suppose it's personal experience. The definition of toxic monogamy basically sounds like Maria by Tony Christie,which is a cheesy, ridiculous and slightly grotesque song from nearly fifty years ago. I don't think I've ever encountered anyone who has seriously held the bizarre combination of views described in the OP.

I've run into it enough that it doesn't surprise me. Mentioning poly tends to bring it out. AFAICT, a lot of people really do believe that partners are supposed to complete one another, and love conquers all, and so on.

It's the implicit rejection of the validity of homosexual relationships which I find most glaring. But maybe that's just me.

As we were unpleasantly reminded here in Oz during the marriage referendum a couple of years back, yes, a lot of people do believe same-gender relationships are less valid for exactly that reason.

(Or at least, this was one of the reasons commonly offered for opposing same-gender marriage; whether those folk actually believed the arguments they were offering is a question I can't answer. Never mind that IVF, adoption, surrogacy, and transgender parenting all provide means for same-gender couples to have kids, or that many straight couples are childless; consistency has never been a high priority in that corner.)

And to repeat, I'd agree that many of the features in the OP are toxic. I just don't see why many of them are inherently connected with monogamy.

Monogamy certainly doesn't have to include them (and is much healthier when it doesn't). But it's almost impossible to combine them with poly, since they largely boil down to "it's bad when my partner isn't focussing all their time and attention on me", and they often drive arguments against poly.

Oh...and trying to explain the difference between marks caused on partners in the context of a loving sadomasochistic relationship, and those caused by domestic violence... that gets tiresome too.

Dating martial artists is fun that way too. One of my ex-es did SCA heavy fighting, and she was bruised most of the time I knew her.

I'm sorry you've had such a hard time getting people to listen to you, especially when you articulate it so clearly.

I'm much less articulate in person, verbally, than I am when I can take my time and edit stuff without time pressure. (Also, I find it much easier to focus on text than voice - probably another autism-related thing.) But thank you

 

[Bramblethorn]

As far as jealousy... to be honest, I'm not certain that I've ever understood just exactly what jealousy is. I've been accused of being jealous. But, it didn't make sense with what people were describing jealousy as.

I had a need. And the person who was, supposedly, on board with helping me with my need wasn't. Because they were seeking to have their need met with someone else. After three times that this occurred, I tried to check with them if we still were even a thing, if they still had any interest in helping me with my need and allowing me to help them with theirs. Any frustration that I felt was due to my feeling that I must have misunderstood something somewhere.

"Jealousy" is used to mean two different things. Being upset because your partner's paying attention/etc. to somebody else, and being upset because your partner's paying attention to somebody else at your expense. We often conflate the two but IME they're very different.

My long-distance partner told me they were seeing somebody - I was okay with that. More than okay, I was happy about it. Because I worried about them a lot, and it was a relief to think they had somebody locally who could look out for them. There's only so much you can do from ten thousand miles away.

But when they started breaking commitments to me because the New Somebody was demanding all their time, that was a very different matter.

 

[cookiecat]

The meme I posted (is it a meme? The thing) touched a lot of hot buttons I've either experienced in my past, seen in friends or feel right now.

I didn't post this list as a support for polyamory. I do believe any of these toxic points can happen in any relationship - love, friendship, even at work. I worked a job in which I found a lot of my self worth; I allowed my job to fill in my blanks. Once I lost the job, I thought I lost part of me. (Sad but true)

Anyways.

Back to love relationships.

Most of you know my husband died two years ago. The thing I struggle with right now is the last point: the idea that being of value to a partner will make up a large chunk of how I value myself.

I didn't choose to be single. This wasn't a divorce. I loved my guy madly. I did find a lot of warm and fuzzy self worth stuff (hmmm - I see a pattern) because I was with him. We were D/s - that gets all tangled up in my head too. My submission to him made me feel great. Worthy of his Dominance.

Now that I'm single, I'm on shaky ground when it comes to how amazing I am. I mean yeah, I'm amazing. But you know what I mean?? He made me feel valuable and worthy. I miss seeing me through his eyes.

Off track.

A lot of these points were definite issues when I was younger. I was a jealous bitch. Insecure. If I didn't get all my guy's time, it meant I wasn't enough, he was cheating, our love wasn't strong enough, yada yada. God it was tiring.

There seems to be overlap in the D/s realm with these points. That my insecurities are my partner's responsibility and instead, are my Dominant's to take care of. As a submissive, I should meet all of my Dominant's needs. I wasn't trying hard enough. Sometimes I was made to feel this.

I honestly used to think this. I question why I gravitate to D/s and especially Daddy stuff. I love there are guys out there who enjoy control. But why do I have this need to be fixed? I'm growing out of this. But I still want someone to kick my ass. OK. I guess I don't need to resolve this argument here.

Everyone's given me a lot to think about. I love it! I've gotten some interesting pm's. Always fun.

Even though monogamy seems like my jam, I do agree with lots of folks said here about not checking off one box. Keeping myself open to different possibilities.

Now I just have to actually, you know. Date someone.

 

[cookiecat]

I saw this list the other day too. It includes some good indicators of "toxic" emotions and behavior, but I'm not sure I'm ready to buy into the idea or term of normalized toxic monogamy as a general principle. Humans are just simply too diverse to make a list like this and make it stick to such a broad "group".

Personally, I believe I have the capacity to love many people if we were compatible and built a deep a connection. My lifelong mate however is just wired for monogamy. She's not opposed to me trying to find others, it's just not of any interest to her. My take on this is petty much the same as all other sexual desires/interests/kinks — every human is unique at a deep core level. My belief is that we don't really have a lot of say in the hard wiring of a lot of what we like or dislike.

In the end, I also think we know the truth most of the time. Sometimes we ignore that small voice in the quest of a new thrill...but the voice inside is usually there if we listen.

Poly relationships are still relationships and the more in a relationship the more opportunities there are for conflict, miscommunication and misunderstanding. In my experience, just one other person brings issues I have to juggle to try to keep everyone happy (including myself). I've tried it several times and they have all ended up being too much of a drain. But I admit to having a low tolerance for drama.

In the end; The saying; "Nothing ventured, nothing gained", is still pretty good advice. I also think it's better to try and fail than to grow old and wonder — what if?

First, just wanted to say hi yukon. Nice to see you 'round here.

Second - the bolded part. I tend to ignore the voice far too often, with unsatisfactory results.

 

[KimGordon67]

The meme I posted (is it a meme? The thing) touched a lot of hot buttons I've either experienced in my past, seen in friends or feel right now.

I didn't post this list as a support for polyamory. I do believe any of these toxic points can happen in any relationship - love, friendship, even at work. I worked a job in which I found a lot of my self worth; I allowed my job to fill in my blanks. Once I lost the job, I thought I lost part of me. (Sad but true)

Anyways.

Back to love relationships.

Most of you know my husband died two years ago. The thing I struggle with right now is the last point: the idea that being of value to a partner will make up a large chunk of how I value myself.

I didn't choose to be single. This wasn't a divorce. I loved my guy madly. I did find a lot of warm and fuzzy self worth stuff (hmmm - I see a pattern) because I was with him. We were D/s - that gets all tangled up in my head too. My submission to him made me feel great. Worthy of his Dominance.

Now that I'm single, I'm on shaky ground when it comes to how amazing I am. I mean yeah, I'm amazing. But you know what I mean?? He made me feel valuable and worthy. I miss seeing me through his eyes.

Off track.

A lot of these points were definite issues when I was younger. I was a jealous bitch. Insecure. If I didn't get all my guy's time, it meant I wasn't enough, he was cheating, our love wasn't strong enough, yada yada. God it was tiring.

There seems to be overlap in the D/s realm with these points. That my insecurities are my partner's responsibility and instead, are my Dominant's to take care of. As a submissive, I should meet all of my Dominant's needs. I wasn't trying hard enough. Sometimes I was made to feel this.

I honestly used to think this. I question why I gravitate to D/s and especially Daddy stuff. I love there are guys out there who enjoy control. But why do I have this need to be fixed? I'm growing out of this. But I still want someone to kick my ass. OK. I guess I don't need to resolve this argument here.

Everyone's given me a lot to think about. I love it! I've gotten some interesting pm's. Always fun.

Even though monogamy seems like my jam, I do agree with lots of folks said here about not checking off one box. Keeping myself open to different possibilities.

Now I just have to actually, you know. Date someone.

After some thought, I think one of the things I've found valuable about shifting into (at least hypothetical) non-monogamy is that it's made me really think about what 'love' is, and what it means to be 'in a relationship'. Just thinking about those things is good - it's pretty easy to take the meaning of those things for granted.

I came across this video on online dating yesterday. Funny as hell. She has an entirely different agenda to me, and her approach wouldn't work for me in the a month of Sundays, but it's still good to see people actually talking about it in different ways. Also, just hella funny.

 

[Wild_Honey_66]

KimGordon's poly thread has me thinking about possibilities as I begin dating again. I've always been monogamous for a bunch of reasons. Feels safer emotionally, I don't have a ton of energy to give to more than one person, as a submissive, I want to be devoted to just one. But is poly something I should be open to? I don't know the answer yet.

I found this list on tumblr and I wondered if I've really matured past some of the reasons I used to insist on monogamy: insecurity, jealousy, needing to be validated.

In light of PLP's question about cucking and hot wife in the "Inquiring Minds" thread (found here: https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=1482371&page=116) I thought it might be a good time to post this.

What is your take on this list?

https://i.imgur.com/q5RmVjpl.jpg

I recognize a lot of this from YA romance flicks.

Great thread, cookie!