Submission: Easing One's Conscience?

[NemoAlia]

It's rare that I start threads around here -- especially since it's all that I can do to keep up with the posts that the rest of y'all make -- but I'm in the middle of a peanut-butter soup of introspection here, and I was wondering if you could offer some of your usual thoughtful feedback:

My... um... partner has recently been telling me that I'm thoughtless and selfish. (Okay, so that's not exactly news to me. I've grown up always a little short of the kind, selfless mark.) The twist is this: He believes that my desire to submit sexually is my way of compensating for my guilt about being basically a selfish person. He won't allow himself to be used in this manner (and sure -- I wouldn't expect him to) but it's hard for me to be cut off from him like I am now. He has severely limited our time together. It's not quite an ultimatum, but really, it seems like one.

Urf. What's a girl to do? How does one cure selfishness?

My first steps have been: To help him around his house; to curb my impatience (as often as I remember to); to attempt viewing our separation as a constructive situation rather than a punishment; to try depending less on him for transportation (This is perhaps the most difficult for me, since I live, car-less, in a very spread-out area); and to try to hold myself to a reasonable schedule so that I'm not keeping him up too late at night.

Still, I slip even in my attempts to reach even these small goals. I'll call and ask him for rides places, only to rescind my question when he doesn't answer.

Anyway, whatever suggestions/responses you can offer will be greatly appreciated!

 

[MissTaken]

I am not sure I could buy into his original theory.

However, that isn't for me to say.

Do you realize how each of the things you are doing to work this out are also things that are in your best interest?

When a Dom motivates us to do what we need to do for ourselves as well as them, well, that is someone who really understands how to use submission well.

 

[Richard49]

My... um... partner has recently been telling me that I'm thoughtless and selfish. (Okay, so that's not exactly news to me. I've grown up always a little short of the kind, selfless mark.)

This really sounds likea spiritual issue.


Ayn Rand teaches there is a difference between self love and what society calls selfishness.....

When we truly act in our own self interest we may piss some people off occasionally but we do act< as Miss T pointed out,
in a way that is best for us ......

We do the next right thing for the next right reason

 

[Azathoth'sPet]

I have to admit I have the same problems. I too am very selfish a lot of the time and have a big problem with it. I also desire to be more in control then I should be and I dont always know how to curb this desire. My Master has been ever patient with me and I desire to serve him and be a good Pet to him but its very hard sometimes. My want to serve him doesnt always come into our situation as much as I'd like it to. I dont even know if I"m serving him correctly. Who knows.

 

[justgem]

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[NemoAlia]

MissTaken wrote:

Do you realize how each of the things you are doing to work this out are also things that are in your best interest?

Well, sure! D'ya think I would be doing them otherwise?

But seriously, thank you all for your thoughts. It's particularly nice to know, Azathoth's, that there are other people out there who have the same problem.

Richard wrote:

When we truly act in our own self interest we may piss some people off occasionally but we do act< as Miss T pointed out, in a way that is best for us ......

This really strikes my mind because it reminds me that what is known as selfishness may actually be harmful to one's self. I know it is for me. I dislike the parts of my character that allow me to be thoughtlessly impatient or needy. If I were really selfish (acting in my own best interest) I would replace these parts of my character with better ones.

In the meantime, it's an arduous process.

...I wonder whether this connects to my problems with achieving orgasm? This has been on the tip of my brain ever since I hijacked Cirrus' masturbation thread the other day (sorry Cirrus!).

 

[evesdream]

Re: Re: Submission: Easing One's Conscience?

a well developed robust selfishness is just seriously under-rated.

This really sounds likea spiritual issue.


Ayn Rand teaches there is a difference between self love and what society calls selfishness.....

When we truly act in our own self interest we may piss some people off occasionally but we do act< as Miss T pointed out,
in a way that is best for us ......

We do the next right thing for the next right reason

 

[Lancecastor]

Who's the Selfish One? Some Food For Thought...

1. He believes that my desire to submit sexually is my way of compensating for my guilt about being basically a selfish person.

2. He won't allow himself to be used in this manner

3. it's hard for me to be cut off from him like I am now.

4. He has severely limited our time together.

5. It's not quite an ultimatum, but really, it seems like one.

6. I wonder whether this connects to my problems with achieving orgasm?

I have isolated some of your phrases from the start of this thread, Nemo, along with a comment you made later.

Looking at these key phrases, I don't see You being selfish...but it does cross my mind that a power struggle is taking place.

Here are my thoughts:

1. Is he a Psychiatrist? If not (and even if he is) this is a crock of shit. He is trying to make you feel guilty about something he doesn't want to do (BDSM, you've mentioned his reluctance before) and turning into You are Selfish. He should learn to discuss these things from His perspective instead of trying to do your thinking for you.

2. Used by being asked to let you submit to him sexually? The poor poor bastard! (sarcasm) Used by driving you around? (dont boyfriends do that anymore?) I dont get it.

3. He has cut you off as punishment. For what? If you feel cut off, buy a cheap old car like we all do at some point, or find new friends with cars.

4. More control. He's done this before as I recall.

5. See #4.

6. I think this guy is a passive aggressive punisher. Someone who really cares about you doesn't do stuff like this. I've said this before about this guy: Ditch him. Let him have all the space he's taking for himself and then some. You'll have lots of orgasms then. Guaranteed.

Summary: I think this guy is bullying you, demeaning your self worth, holding you for ransom with his car and making you feel like you're "selfish" for wanting to give yourself to him. Stop making excuses for him.

Food for thought?

Lance

 

[SexyChele]

NemoAlia, either you hide yourself behind your postings, or I'm just not getting it. I don't think I've seen a poster here who is more thoughtful and less selfish than you. You have always struck me as a helpful, thoughtful, caring person. (Heck, who would have taken the time and initiative to sort through all those topics and links!?!?!?!

How to cure selfishness? I think you need to find what is considered selfish. Can mean different things to different people. Asking for a ride somewhere may or may not be selfish. Others have stated you might consider buying a car, but maybe there is a valid reason for you not being able to do so? And I can understand living in a spread out area - it's tough. But I would think your Dom knew this about you beforehand, so why make an issue of it now?

I've never personally been a fan of withdrawal as "punishment" or "learning". I think it childish and attempting to force control. In my opinion, he should be willing to talk openly with you, maybe give you ideas on where/what he sees as areas for improvement and work together to set goals.

This is rambling, but I feel there are more issues here than simply all being you. I don't know a lot about your situation, but this much I can comment on. If you see something about yourself that you feel needs to be changed, then only you can change it. If some one else tells you that something needs to be changed, and you don't quite "get it", then maybe it isn't you that needs to do the changing.

Good luck!

 

[RisiaSkye]

Re: Who's the Selfish One? Some Food For Thought...

Summary: I think this guy is bullying you, demeaning your self worth, holding you for ransom with his car and making you feel like you're "selfish" for wanting to give yourself to him. Stop making excuses for him.

Food for thought?

Lance

Lance has a good point here, Nemo. This isn't all about you, and the fact that he's trying to make it that way doesn't speak well of him.

RS

 

[justgem]

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[NemoAlia]

Gosh! Thank you all for your support and confidence in me.

To clear things up:

1. "Selfish" is something with which I've identified for these past many years. It's not, in my case, always a positive characteristic. In fact, I remind myself of my mother: I just assume that my life is important enough for other people to abandon theirs and live in mine. (This applies primarily to significant others, although I'll admit that it also applied in high school when I was in charge of a bunch of my peers as a choir director.)

2. I don't own a car because I really can't afford one. Like seriously, I know what time Panera Bread throws away their day-old loaves, still wrapped in their plastic bags. I have this apartment and this computer 'cause people give things (but not the edible kind) to people who are good at taking standardized tests.

3. My guy certainly does help me around my house. Part of his recent beef is that I don't seem to appreciate it. He even washes my dishes if I'm totally pressed for time. The thing is: where my life is very fully scheduled, his life is full -- but unscheduled. Doing my chores takes his time and attention from where they need to be, whether or not he has any formal plans.

4. He is also generally patient. Even when he acts quickly (an occasion that is often frustratingly rare), it's always very rational. I've never seen him change his mind.

5. Moreover, he's not limiting our time together as a punishment or as a learning experience for me. I think he's doing it to protect himself -- so that he has the time and energy to focus on his own life.

6. I've started the Library thread only partially as a philanthropic effort. It is also a good way to keep people from shitting where I live. Moreover, it's a nice hobby.

He has this idealized notion that he and his True Love will have found each other because they happen to be traveling the exact same path at the same time. He figures they will have committed to each other as the only logical thing to do, since they will have been already sharing a path. I'm not sure I fit this criterion. Still, I've got it bad for this guy. He, too, would like to see this relationship last. He was a virgin (at 24) when I met him. He expects to have one love affair in his life.

He has some seriously high expectations.

I admire him because I admire his values. In fact, I share them. I just don't feel that I'm living up to them as best as I possibly can.

Still, the good news is that I haven't broken down and called him all day! Cross one day off the calendar of days that I've needed rides places.

I do, of course, realize that I've just disobeyed Lance's command to "stop making excuses for him." Still, I felt some explanation was in order. It's rare that I post personal threads, but when I do, I'm usually very honest. I'm telling y'all exactly what I think. Looking back through my old journals (as spotty as they are), I recognize these thought patterns surfacing long before this guy showed up. (Moreover, the inability to orgasm started long before him as well.)

Thank you again for your kind responses. Special thanks to the newcomers who are willing to dive right in where others fear to tread. You are all the reason why this board is my home.

 

[justgem]

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[zipman]

NemoAlia,

I'm not sure I agree with Lance and Risia. It sounds like he is trying to work this out with you. However, I am rather unfamiliar with your relationship and that is why I did not reply to this thread originally.

My first impression was that there is a communication issue between you and him. Discussing and understanding why he feels the way he does and you act the way you do might be a good approach.

As far as your self-evaluation, only you know if it is accurate or too harsh. I know that for me, having my sub/gf appreciate the things I do for her is very important.

Sorry if these thoughts seem random and unconnected.

Zip

 

[Pure]

A few thoughts,

Consider the accusation of 'selfishness'; who will make it? the altruist? Generaly those applying the term are saying "Pay more attention to my desires, needs, likes..." And that would seem to be selfish. So in many cases--not necessarily yours--it's simply a contest of two 'selfish' persons. This is particularly true of those emotionally close: a parent who's lonely and says their adult child is 'selfish' in not visiting more often, is obviously trying to get his/her (parent's) desires met.

BUT this isn't just a counteraccusation thing; most or all of us are selfish. We go by our desires; we take 'our' perspectives; we choose according to our likes.

THAT SAID, there is a real issue in two ways:

As a couple people have said, the real difference may be in the narrowness or broadness of the 'self interest' being pursued. For instance it's narrow of me to try for a quick O, in a sexual encounter. There's more overall satisfaction of me) if I look a bit to the sexual needs, including the O of my partner. But it does come back to 'my satisfaction', broadly defined.

Second, if you look at kids, you do (besides surprising kindness) often see a selfishness, as in the case of the sick mom being bugged to get up and fix a meal by her 8 yr old who could survive for a few hrs. by foraging. Indeed, the kid could bring Mom a cup of tea.

And you do see kids, first in line, grab most of the candy in a bowl, though there are others behind.

All parents, therefore, do some 'socializing', which is probably just various ways of encouraging the child to
a) look at others' feelings, and
b) broaden their 'self' definition, as just described. For it's in the child's broader interests if his/her playmates, esp. if visiting, are at least minimally happy.

LASTLY, I can't apply this 'childlike' scenario to you and yours; maybe the contesting selfs scenario I first described, applies better. Or both might apply in varying degrees to different aspects of your sidtuation. You decide. I am, however, a little bit leaning in Lance's direction, for this reason: IMO, It's worth questioning an adult who tells another that s/he (the latter) is a child, or who treats other adults as children in need of 'training.'

I don't have the view which I've heard, that sub training is pretty much like child training, and/or that the 'sub' is essentially in the role of 'child.' Another topic.

What a ramble. Enough.

Best.

 

[lark sparrow]

What is the goal?

1. Restricting time and basic goals:

Is this simply to make you more appreciative of the time he gives you and the things he does for you? Would he like you to be more independent and keep these boundaries, though perhaps loosen them a bit when progress is shown? If so, are these relationship boundaries you want? If either of these changes occur... will your sexual submission be: a. Accepted and appreciated as a true expression? b. Something you will no longer need as an overcompensation and does not belong in the relationship? Will he always see sexual submission as a manipulation or overcompensation? If so, is this a relationship boundary that is your personal goal as well?

(These are simple questions I would want to be clear about when trying to change my behavior/relationship particularly at my partner's request and/or ultimatum.)

2. High expectations and less or no experience in sexual/romantic relationships.

He has alot to learn as well. Even the best relationships will not fit within our ideals, particularly not when they are based without experience. I know that it can be refreshing to come across someone who has not had the hard knocks that relationships can bring, and is still full of ideals, without all the questions that many have who have found differences between high ideas and attempting to make them realities.

It seems he is having some conflicts around his ideals and the actualities. I really care about/love this woman, and... hey, this isn't how it's supposed to go! Some of that is truly on him, his problem. It's great to work towards the ideal relationship that both of you want - but it is work. That may be clashing with his ideals, and I hope you don't get completely sucked up into his ideals being your responsibility.

 

[artful]

Nemo,...

...I have the utmost respect for your truth and honesty,...in ALL your postings. T o give you a bit more to chew on,...most of us can be selfish at any time,...over any one thing or another. Just a fact. None of us are perfect in this department. Neither you,...nor your Dom, are perfect either.

Because you started this thread,...I see you as one who is looking to better themself in this area of your life. Introspection is a good quality,...and it would serve us all well, if we would use it in a positive manner, (not as a way of picking ourself apart), but to learn the truth, whatever that may be,...and improve ourselves.

*Selfishness*, (as so many other faults), is brought about by fear. When fear governs our life,...our actions,...no good can come of it. Keep on doing what it appears you have been doing, (to better yourself), but I caution you to not try to meet the standards of others. Set your own standards,...set your own goals,...and submit what YOU wish, to your Dom. If it is not enough,... then so be it.

Good Luck,...Your Friend,................Art

 

[Lancecastor]

Hi again;

I was curious to see what if anything had been said after I posted, Nemo, so I just read the latest posts.

First, I didn't "command" anything. I tend to be fairly straightforward and unemotional when it comes to advice. Plus, I think you're swell, so frankly it pisses me off to hear how your boyfriend is treating you...so some emotional response snuck into my word choices.

Second, some of the responses have couched this as a D/s relationship, whereas I responded as if he were your boyfriend, as I understood from previous Q's about your BF that though you'd broached the subject of D/s he really wasn't into it.

Third, part of my pissiness at him is in my thinking that he's punishing you, having "figured out" that "part" of D/s and I conclude that he is in essence using your submission against you. I accept that I could be way off base on this.

Lastly, it has been my experience that it is a fool's game to try and change someone in a relationship; they can only change themselves. I see you trying to change your nature at his request in this and it doesn't sound fair or loving from here. But again, as I said, I'd favour you over him simply because I know you, so please take my comments with a shaker of salt.

I hope things go well in this for you.

Cheers;

Lance

 

[Ishmael]

Lastly, it has been my experience that it is a fool's game to try and change someone in a relationship; they can only change themselves. I see you trying to change your nature at his request in this and it doesn't sound fair or loving from here. But again, as I said, I'd favour you over him simply because I know you, so please take my comments with a shaker of salt.

I hope things go well in this for you.

Cheers;

Lance

Good point Lance.

Training is one thing, attempting to bring about alterations in a persons basic character is quite another. In my experience that requires either a near-death experience, or a great deal of self-sought professional counseling. Regardless of the motivation, it starts from within and requires time and a great deal of repetitive behavior to imprint the 'new' you.

The other issue that both you and Richard alluded to is "is this change really necessary" or even desireable? Using the selfishness subject, there is the selfishness born of the need for self-preservation and generational preservation (this is generally highly developed in women and is almost atavistic in nature), and selfishness born of greed. The former are desirable traits, the latter ugly at best.

And lastly, for the most part in relationships, what you see is what you get. Entering into a relationship with the idea that you will tolerate certain behaviors until you can "change" the person is a fools errand. A constant source of conflict between the two parties. Even if one of the partners changes outwardly, resentment will build internally. Not a healthy start at all.

Ishmael

 

[NemoAlia]

Well, it has been a long time since I responded to this thread (perhaps it would be better off if I let it die, but oh well). Sorry that I haven't been around lately! Would you believe that in the few days that I didn't call my boyfriend, he (breaking all precedent) decided to venture onto Literotica to make sure that I was, at least, still alive? He read this thread and the masturbation thread, as well as a few others. Anyway, we've done some talking. I was a complete crybaby when we discussed my inability to achieve orgasm. (It came as a rather painful surprise to him.) Anyway, he saw Lance's point about his being a "passive aggressive punisher" and he's consciously trying to avoid that sort of behavior. At the same time, I'm trying to maintain a more comfortable distance so that I'm not intruding on his work time. Hopefully, this will all work out eventually.

lark sparrow's question remains, though:

If either of these changes occur... will your sexual submission be: a. Accepted and appreciated as a true expression? b. Something you will no longer need as an overcompensation and does not belong in the relationship? Will he always see sexual submission as a manipulation or overcompensation? If so, is this a relationship boundary that is your personal goal as well?

I don't know the answer. I suspect that my man hopes the answer will be B. I'm not sure how I feel. I would like to think that I will not always need BDSM in order to enjoy sex and intimacy. That feeling of dependency on a situation is not the sort of dependency I'm looking for. Still, I can't predict whether my BDSM leanings will disappear as I grow and change. It would be less complicated if they did. If they don't, well then, they don't. I sure hope he'll be willing to experiment with me then.