Struggles with keeping tense consistent

[AWhoopsieDaisy]

Anyone in this thread smoke weed?

 

[ElectricBlue]

The passage I've transcribed from 'I Don't Need You To Speak' by BellaLikesToDom is told wholly in the moment of 'You'.

No, it's not. Several people have pointed out that your extract lapses into third person towards the end. And now you bring in a non sequitur, "show, don't tell", which is another writing paradigm completely, nothing to do with this discussion (I use the word loosely).

To be frank, I think you make this up as you go along, because your arguments, such as they are, quickly become incoherent. But hey, tell it how you want it, it's safer than smoking dope and keeps the kiddies off the streets .

 

[KeithD]

XerXesXu hasn't posted a story to Literotica in over a year. I think he's moved on to "just mess around with them on the discussion board" mode.

 

[XerXesXu]

XerXesXu hasn't posted a story to Literotica in over a year. I think he's moved on to "just mess around with them on the discussion board" mode.

You're correct that I rarely write anything for Literotica. I've said on several occasions, in relevant threads, that I'm here to people watch. I've got my eye on you. I engage on threads that interest me, on others I don't. A question that interests me has arisen, 'What constitutes Point of View?'. Some people believe 2nd Person is a PoV they'd like to read, some, like you, are dismissive of these people. 'Shrug - Why bother'. I don't have your dismissive attitude. It can be done, it has been done. I've explained what PoV is, and demonstrated how it can be done in 2nd Person. You may feel messed around with - but that's just you, possibly because you don't feel able to engage.

 

[XerXesXu]

No, it's not. Several people have pointed out that your extract lapses into third person towards the end. And now you bring in a non sequitur, "show, don't tell",

No it doesn't. I'm content, as always, to let people read it for themselves and form an opinion.
Here's the definition:
'The PoV is the person in whose moment the story is told. So long as it's told in their moment ie: what the person sees, hears, remembers, infers, assumes or otherwise knows, it is told in that person's PoV.'
If you have a definition, say what it is, place it in the public domain for analysis, or is it a trade secret?
'Show not tell' - that's merely an invitation to strut your stuff. Put your definition in the public domain, if you say my extract lapses, point to the lapse and say why it's a lapse, then we can discuss it. Try and move beyond airy assertions, be concrete.

 

[KeithD]

You're correct that I rarely write anything for Literotica. I've said on several occasions, in relevant threads, that I'm here to people watch. I've got my eye on you. I engage on threads that interest me, on others I don't. A question that interests me has arisen, 'What constitutes Point of View?'. Some people believe 2nd Person is a PoV they'd like to read, some, like you, are dismissive of these people. 'Shrug - Why bother'. I don't have your dismissive attitude. It can be done, it has been done. I've explained what PoV is, and demonstrated how it can be done in 2nd Person. You may feel messed around with - but that's just you, possibly because you don't feel able to engage.

Naw. You're too incoherent and irrelevant to anything I'm interested in to engage. When I do, you just show what a bottomless pit you are.

 

[ElectricBlue]

No it doesn't. I'm content, as always, to let people read it for themselves and form an opinion.
Here's the definition:
'The PoV is the person in whose moment the story is told. So long as it's told in their moment ie: what the person sees, hears, remembers, infers, assumes or otherwise knows, it is told in that person's PoV.'
If you have a definition, say what it is, place it in the public domain for analysis, or is it a trade secret?
'Show not tell' - that's merely an invitation to strut your stuff. Put your definition in the public domain, if you say my extract lapses, point to the lapse and say why it's a lapse, then we can discuss it. Try and move beyond airy assertions, be concrete.

You're being obtuse. Everyone else but you has consistently referred to the conventional first, second and third person points of view as used in traditional grammar. You're now inventing new definitions, so this is now all a bit pointless.

I've said where and why your pov changes, refer somewhere up above.

 

[Jmanchu]

Hi all,

I wonder if there are any tips for Keelung the tense consistent in writing. Oft times I write and realise I write in the past tense where I mean it to be the present. In general the present tense is more engaging to pull readers into a story. Of course there are things and events that can be written about that are in the past but are being narrated in the present.

I can usually spot this in editing. I know I have had good advice here in the past and recently to keep case consistent otherwise it can jar readers out the story. I also aware of ‘voice’ and narrative voice and Viewpoint.

Do regular writers have any tips or is it just a matter of practice over time. I can understand when I write and write fluently and quickly which is often I guess my narrative voice is thinking about things that have already happened hence the reason (I.e. how my brain works) but is there a trick / technique that would help me to keep things in present tense writing wise. I guess I find dialogue easier as it is present tense as you write the conversation even if you are writing about it in present.

i guess I may just have to get used to catching it in the edits but if there is a way I could get the tense correct as I write it this would be preferable.

it’s relevant too as I plan to bring once again an older story that I have had to modify to fit being suitable for Lit content wise so at least I can start with current version (again nearly all past tense) and as having to edit for Lit anyway I can pick up the edits for tense.

Brutal One

Past tense is just more natural for writing. When I think present tense in writing or narration, I picture a script more than a novel or book. It, almost feels more like an idea.

Think about it like this. If your stories hypothetically weren't fiction but actual stories, you'd be telling them as you remember them, like something you saw or witnessed. You'd be telling about something that already happened. You don't tell a story as its happening. A book or literature of any sort that is a story is a chronicled record in paperback(and internet archive) form, essentially history. And fiction is false history, fantastic and imaginative false history. It's why its more natural to go to past tense, why most stories are past tense.

Maybe if you want to write present tense imagine a play narrator setting the scene when appropriate and actively narrating each action of the actors and events in your story? I don't know. I'd say don't limit yourself to believing that one tense is better for engaging readers or whatever. I'd do what's natural, personally, and it sounds like you find past tense more natural.

 

[XerXesXu]

You're being obtuse. Everyone else but you has consistently referred to the conventional first, second and third person points of view as used in traditional grammar. You're now inventing new definitions, so this is now all a bit pointless.

I've said where and why your pov changes, refer somewhere up above.

OK, you can't. It seems you can't even locate the old definition, which you say exists. A total nullity.

 

[XerXesXu]

Naw. You're too incoherent and irrelevant to anything I'm interested in to engage. When I do, you just show what a bottomless pit you are.

Another nullity.

 

[KeithD]

I just noticed that the GM story of mine that posts in an hour or so, "If Only I Could," is written in first person, present tense. There's a style of storytelling I sometimes use that naturally comes out this way. I don't really think about POV or tense when I'm writing in this mode.

 

[KeithD]

Another nullity.

You're just playing games here. Turning you off (again).

 

[XerXesXu]

You're just playing games here. Turning you off (again).

I didn't think he could walk the walk, but he can certainly run.

 

[ElectricBlue]

OK, you can't. It seems you can't even locate the old definition, which you say exists. A total nullity.

You have a very short attention span. This is the post I'm referring to, which points out where the pov changes: Previous post

I don't need to define first, second and third person because they have accepted grammatical meanings, which it would appear you don't comprehend.

 

[XerXesXu]

You have a very short attention span. This is the post I'm referring to, which points out where the pov changes: Previous post

I don't need to define first, second and third person because they have accepted grammatical meanings, which it would appear you don't comprehend.

see #155. Wrong. Done and dusted. Short attention span? You're going in circles. You labour under the same misconception as SimonDoom at #176. 1st Person does not become 3rd Person because the chosen PoV character relates what 'he/she/they' told me. You are the writer, you have made the decision on what PoV you will write from and, so long as you relate only things which 'I' could see, hear, experience, assume, infer or know, in the moment, you remain in 1st Person PoV. Similarly with 2nd person. PoV is a writer's decision made before they start to write, or maybe rewrite, not an accidental incident of a pronoun.

I note that you are still not able to put your finger on what 'You' could not see, hear, experience, assume, infer or know, in the moment, in this paragraph.

'As she settles herself on top of you she lets out a contented sigh as she feels you trying, and failing, to breathe under her bottom. She used to be so sensitive about her weight, always having been a larger girl, but she does not mind it any more. In finding her dominant side several years ago she also found her self confidence, not to mention her ability to use your body to best effect in the bedroom. Besides, she never heard you complaining.....Not that you could right now.'

That's 2nd Person PoV, the use of the pronouns 'she' and 'her' doesn't change that. These are sexual partners with a longstanding and intimate knowledge of each other's behaviours, needs and responses.

 

[Trionyx]

The detective turned to him asking, “What do ya tink, Hammer?”
Mike took a long, final drag on his cigarette before tossing the butt into the gutter. “We’ll, we’ve gotta wait for da coroner to be sure, but I’d venture a guess just from lookin at da corpse dat dis topic was beaten to death.”

 

[Bramblethorn]

Yeah, okay I expressed that badly. What I was driving at was that in these weird stories under discussion, it's perfectly possible to do both first and second narration simultaneously and inner thought access to both. A lot of those stories feel more like Second with some first, rather than first with some second.


Put it this way, of you have a story that starts.

[I met Bob in the street earlier today and he told me about a funny thing that happened to him. [10000 words about Bob] I laughed at his story and went on my way]

Technically this is first person but for all intense and purposes it's going to be third (assuming I does a neutral retelling?and doesn't insert their own voice into it.)

Ah, I see what you mean.

If an angry grammarian bailed me up at gunpoint and ordered me to choose between "first person" and "third person" for the story you describe, I'd grudgingly call it "first person". But even if that description is technically correct (the best kind of correct ;-) I agree that it's not very helpful in conveying the nature of the story.

My preference there would be to unpack that structure and call it something like "a third-person narrative embedded within a first-person framing device". [Edit: missed that there was another page of replies and Simon had already made that point.]

For the kind of "I-you" BDSM story you mention earlier, maybe "first person with a second-person protagonist"?

 

[SimonDoom]

That's obvious. The PoV is the person in whose moment the story is told. So long as it's told in their moment ie: what the person sees, hears, remembers, infers, assumes or otherwise knows, it is told in that person's PoV. The passage I've transcribed from 'I Don't Need You To Speak' by BellaLikesToDom is told wholly in the moment of 'You'. I've invited you to 'show not tell', you've declined - reflect on that.

The original version of the excerpt you are using argues against what you are saying. That story is told in the first person POV, where the "she" character in your passage is the "I" narrator and POV character in the original. It's quite clear in the original version that the POV character is the I, not the you. In that story there are a few places where "you"'s feelings are described, but it's clear from the context that we are to understand that "I" is inferring those feelings from the moment and from "I"'s long-standing acquaintance with "you." There's no question whatsoever that the original story is in first-person POV.

You claim to have flipped the POV by changing the pronoun I to she. But why does that change the POV? What you are suggesting is that every instance in which "she"'s feelings are revealed is an instance of "you" inferring those feelings from context and past acquaintance. Theoretically, that's possible, but I don't think this particular passage pulls it off, and the evidence for that is that several experienced readers have read it and don't see it that way. You can't tell them they're wrong. If it's confusing, it's confusing. If this passage is intended to convey that you is so acquainted with she that you knows what she is thinking, then I think some of the phrasing is mishandled, confusing, and a bit of a cheat.

The original, before you changed it, works better, because the revelations of "you"'s feelings are not as much of a stretch from"I"'s point of view. That said, I think it's better to minimize passages in which one POV character claims to narrate the feelings of the other character. That's telling, not showing. Better for the POV character simply to narrate what the other character says and does.

 

[XerXesXu]

You claim to have flipped the POV by changing the pronoun I to she. But why does that change the POV?

Because I decided to rewrite it from the PoV of 'You'. PoV is the decision of the writer. The issue is whether, having made that decision, it's possible to write consistently in 2nd Person PoV. You agree that it is. It's unpopular, I never use it, but it's possible. We’ve agreed that the original was not 2nd Person, no need to rehash that.

I welcome the contribution of Joe Blow, as EB calls the readers, but today he’s been wearing his Joe Blow hat, and he’s been unable to identify what he finds objectionable. If anyone has said it’s confusing, I’ve missed it. Others, like yourself, tripped up by pronouns, have grappled with how to describe it. Have you noticed how this thread has expanded the number of PoVs known to literature?

EB, to give him credit, at least identified this paragraph as causing him problems, three sentences only:

1. As she settles herself on top of you she lets out a contented sigh as she feels you trying, and failing, to breathe under her bottom.

2. She used to be so sensitive about her weight, always having been a larger girl, but she does not mind it any more.

3. In finding her dominant side several years ago she also found her self confidence, not to mention her ability to use your body to best effect in the bedroom. Besides, she never heard you complaining.....Not that you could right now.

Are you confused by what’s going on, or is it reasonably clear? I’d invite you to identify anything that would negate a 2nd Person PoV in any sentence. Is there anything ‘You’ is not experiencing or wouldn’t know? Feel free to go beyond these sentences.

That’s far more helpful than vague assertions. It’s what I mean by ‘show don’t tell’, as important in pedagogy as in fiction. Heavy lifting I know, but someone has to do it.

 

[SimonDoom]

Because I decided to rewrite it from the PoV of 'You'. PoV is the decision of the writer. The issue is whether, having made that decision, it's possible to write consistently in 2nd Person PoV. You agree that it is. It's unpopular, I never use it, but it's possible. We’ve agreed that the original was not 2nd Person, no need to rehash that.

I welcome the contribution of Joe Blow, as EB calls the readers, but today he’s been wearing his Joe Blow hat, and he’s been unable to identify what he finds objectionable. If anyone has said it’s confusing, I’ve missed it. Others, like yourself, tripped up by pronouns, have grappled with how to describe it. Have you noticed how this thread has expanded the number of PoVs known to literature?

EB, to give him credit, at least identified this paragraph as causing him problems, three sentences only:

1. As she settles herself on top of you she lets out a contented sigh as she feels you trying, and failing, to breathe under her bottom.

2. She used to be so sensitive about her weight, always having been a larger girl, but she does not mind it any more.

3. In finding her dominant side several years ago she also found her self confidence, not to mention her ability to use your body to best effect in the bedroom. Besides, she never heard you complaining.....Not that you could right now.

Are you confused by what’s going on, or is it reasonably clear? I’d invite you to identify anything that would negate a 2nd Person PoV in any sentence. Is there anything ‘You’ is not experiencing or wouldn’t know? Feel free to go beyond these sentences.

That’s far more helpful than vague assertions. It’s what I mean by ‘show don’t tell’, as important in pedagogy as in fiction. Heavy lifting I know, but someone has to do it.

Sure, I can clarify.
In sentence 1, You is in no position to say what "she feels." Only She knows that.
In sentence 2, You is in no position to know how She feels about her weight, or whether she minds it any more, unless She has clearly communicated these facts to You, but You does not say what She has said. So it appears the narrator, not You, is acting the part of omniscient narrator and getting inside She's head.
In sentence 3, once again, You is in no position to say that She "found her self confidence."
In none of these sentences does You make clear how and when this information was conveyed by She to You in the past. So this is telling, not showing.

As I said before, the original story was a first-person POV story, in which the narrator I addresses You. All you've done is flip I to she. That doesn't accomplish the goal of flipping POV from I/she to You. You can say it does all you want, but if experienced readers don't read it that way you are in no position to disagree with them. A story "is" whatever a reasonable reader would read it to be. Authorial intention doesn't control if the author lets the story get away from him, and I think that's what happens here when you flip the pronouns. I don't believe you would have chosen to write it this way in the first place. It's an academic exercise, but it doesn't prove what you think it does.

You could make this work as a solid second-person POV story with a bit of tinkering, but the tinkering is definitely needed to make it work.

 

[XerXesXu]

Sure, I can clarify.
In sentence 1, You is in no position to say what "she feels." Only She knows that.
In sentence 2, You is in no position to know how She feels about her weight, or whether she minds it any more, unless She has clearly communicated these facts to You, but You does not say what She has said. So it appears the narrator, not You, is acting the part of omniscient narrator and getting inside She's head.
In sentence 3, once again, You is in no position to say that She "found her self confidence."
In none of these sentences does You make clear how and when this information was conveyed by She to You in the past. So this is telling, not showing.

As I said before, the original story was a first-person POV story, in which the narrator I addresses You. All you've done is flip I to she. That doesn't accomplish the goal of flipping POV from I/she to You. You can say it does all you want, but if experienced readers don't read it that way you are in no position to disagree with them. A story "is" whatever a reasonable reader would read it to be. Authorial intention doesn't control if the author lets the story get away from him, and I think that's what happens here when you flip the pronouns. I don't believe you would have chosen to write it this way in the first place. It's an academic exercise, but it doesn't prove what you think it does.

You could make this work as a solid second-person POV story with a bit of tinkering, but the tinkering is definitely needed to make it work.

Thank you.

You wish the reasonable reader to decide whether ‘you’s long-term partner would have discussed her insecurities about her weight etc with him, in the past, in the context and her developing confidence in the performance of their chosen kink. I’ve been in similar situations and, I suspect, have many reasonable readers. I find it wholly implausible that ‘you’ and ‘she’ would not have done so, possibly to the point of ‘you’s boredom. I’m content to leave your contention to the judgment of the reasonable reader.

Errr. From the foregoing, you can see that I am in a position to disagree with ‘reasonable’ readers, like yourself, again, contrary to your suggestion.

You say ‘lets the story get away from him’. Again you revert to vacuity, I must guess. Do you mean, in the context of a limited PoV like 1 st or 2 nd Person, the writer discloses matters which the ‘Person’ could not know ‘in the moment’ by shifting viewpoint to omniscient, or otherwise? I would agree that would be a failure of craft.

Yes, I’ve said I wouldn’t write in 2nd Person. Yes, it’s an academic exercise for me. Exercise is good for you, it shows things which can be concealed in vacuous academic waffle.

You say you can, tinker. Go on then, show, don’t just tell.

 

[MillieDynamite]

2ND person sucks, wouldn't write in it, won't read it.

 

[AWhoopsieDaisy]

2ND person sucks, wouldn't write in it, won't read it.

It has its applications in cookbooks and other similarly instructional works.

The only work I've seen use second person well in fiction is Homestuck and thats because 1) its emulating older text based video games, 2) you find out later that the second person narration is the input of an outside third party watching this unfold on a computer and typing these narrations in as commands and 3) Narration makes up a very small portion of Homestucks text.

 

[MillieDynamite]

It has its applications in cookbooks and other similarly instructional works.

The only work I've seen use second person well in fiction is Homestuck and thats because 1) its emulating older text based video games, 2) you find out later that the second person narration is the input of an outside third party watching this unfold on a computer and typing these narrations in as commands and 3) Narration makes up a very small portion of Homestucks text.

If you say so! just not my cup of tea or pot of coffee.