Struggles with keeping tense consistent

[TheRedChamber]

These things are the choice of the narrator, POV, and close or omniscient narrator.
This is a writers' board. Let's write something. An adaption of the story RC referred: excerpted for academic and educational purposes only:-
Swap 'She etc' for 'I etc.

Do you say that's 2nd Person or 3rd Person?

People are getting hung up on technical definitions. It sounds like some want to follow a 'trump' rule - if there's any 'I's then it's first person, else I'm if there's any 'you's it's second person, else it's third person. Another way of looking at it is who is the principle character of the story - in my example 'you' feels more central that 'me'. Finally, you can look at how deeply we are able to go into people's thoughts and feelings. Simon thinks what 'you' are feeling is simply assumed by 'I'. I think the writer is asserting 'your' feelings more directly.

There's a clear difference in my mind between these BDSM stories and a 1st/2nd piece from say Loving Wives. Those stories tend to go...

When you left in the morning I kissed you on the cheek. Little did you know what those lips would be doing not half an hour later. [five pages of utter depravity] When you returned still you did not suspect...

The story follows 'I' and is informing 'you' of stuff they didn't witness.

For the BDSM stories, the story is far more likely to focus on what 'you' are doing prior to my arrival. We don't want 'you' to know what 'I' have planned for you.

You wait for me where I had told you. Such a good boy. You chain yourself up according to the instructions I pinned on the door. You are nervous, not knowing how long it will be until I get there.

Why am 'I' telling 'you' this? Because I'm making you live my fantasy. Whether or not 'it makes sense' to other readers or how we choose to classify it (and it feels more like 2nd to me) it is an established form of narrative that is used sometimes in BDSM especially and the writers generally have thought through what they are doing with it.

 

[XerXesXu]

As I read it, it started out second, with an absolute focus on "you", then lapsed into third person in the third last paragraph - there is a narration of some thoughts that are unique to the other woman - at that point, you've lost the second person narrative.

This is the third last paragraph:

'As she settles herself on top of you she lets out a contented sigh as she feels you trying, and failing, to breathe under her bottom. She used to be so sensitive about her weight, always having been a larger girl, but she does not mind it any more. In finding her dominant side several years ago she also found her self confidence, not to mention her ability to use your body to best effect in the bedroom. Besides, she never heard you complaining.....Not that you could right now."

There's nothing in that paragraph which 'you' could not know about 'her', and 'her' state of mind. She's your long-term partner.

 

[ElectricBlue]

People are getting hung up on technical definitions.

I think people are trying to unpack grammar.

Grammar has a set of rules and conventions which standardise points of view and give each one a number. There isn't a BDSM variant - any narrative must fall into one of the voices, and be consistent about it.

The issue with poor writing is when the author loses that consistent voice, which is (edit, typo), I think, what this thread is really about.

Although, admittedly, the thread has moved from tense to voice - probably because tense is easy, voice can occasionally be trickier. Especially second, as being unpacked now.

 

[ElectricBlue]

There's nothing in that paragraph which 'you' could not know about 'her', and 'her' state of mind. She's your long-term partner.

Such knowledge is not grammar, which is what's being explored here. I still contend that, once the narrative moves away from "you", your passage has lapsed into third person, then attempts to go back. It's not consistent, so it fails as second person.

 

[XerXesXu]

Such knowledge is not grammar, which is what's being explored here. I still contend that, once the narrative moves away from "you", your passage has lapsed into third person, then attempts to go back. It's not consistent, so it fails as second person.

You contend? You don't know? Could you explain to KeithD the difference between tense and POV? Are you sure we're discussing grammar? Is grammar even relevant to the difference between close and omniscient narration?

 

[TheRedChamber]

... any narrative must fall into one of the voices, and be consistent about it.

The issue with poor writing is when the author loses that consistent voice, which use, I think, what this thread is really about.

But, as with any linguistic subgroup, the BDSM community will look at your prescriptive grammar and go 'nah, bro, we're cool doing what we're doing'' and they don't think the writing is poor.

I've argued that there is a voice variant that is often used in the BDSM Writing community with the following features.

1) Uses I and you.
2) Has access to both 'I' and 'you's thoughts
3) You tends to be the main protagonist. Scenes with only you are acceptable. Scenes with only I are generally not.
4) I has all the agency. The justification for knowing 'you's thoughts or behaviour when I am not there is that I am familiar with you and everything you are doing is unfolding according to my design.

You can argue that technically this is still first person if it helps, but I'd argue that the other characteristics above make it feel more like second regardless of any analysis.


Incidental these stories are also usually written in present for extra immediacy.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Welcome to the American Public Education system. I was born in 2003 and my parents always had me enrolled in whatever the best school district in the state was. Unfortunately that means a lot of school curriculums are actually WORSE than I've described.

God, that is depressing.
I mean, part of the problem is that there *isn't* an American Public Education System, just 50 states mostly letting individual districts pander to whatever educational measures will get votes. And another part is schools focusing on test results to the exclusion of all else.

We have some of that latter problem in England, but most parents know to question an Outstanding or Satisfactory rating and look behind it.

Assignments have possibly gone too far the other way with focus on 'empathy' - "how would you feel waking up as an inmate in Auschwitz?" for example. I thought my kid's one-line "Don't want to think about it." was quite reasonable in the circs.

 

[Voboy]

I suspect it depends what country you're in.

Not in the US. Curriculum is state-based here. And the way it's implemented varies town-by-town.

I will say that I've been working in American secondary schools for the past 20 years and that what @AWhoopsieDaisy is describing bears no resemblance to where I work. Students at the school where I work do plenty of past-tense, and plenty of fiction.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Not in the US. Curriculum is state-based here. And the way it's implemented varies town-by-town.

I will say that I've been working in American secondary schools for the past 20 years and that what @AWhoopsieDaisy is describing bears no resemblance to where I work. Students at the school where I work do plenty of past-tense, and plenty of fiction.

No wonder there's such a wide range of reactions to Daisy's posts.

Here in Oz there's a national curriculum delivered at state level, with a mix of government, Catholic, and private schools of various shapes and sizes.

 

[SimonDoom]

Do you say that's 2nd Person or 3rd Person?

As KeithD said, it's both, because you shifted from the "you" point of view to the "she" point of view. POV isn't determined by the pronoun you use to narrate the action. It's determined by whose brain you are getting into. In this case, you get inside both heads, so it's 2 POVs. It's not really any different from third-person omniscient except that in this case the "he" is a "you."

The tense is consistently present tense. It's very clear.

I don't agree that there's anything "wrong" with your excerpt, or that you lost control. The way you handled it is unusual, because typically in a scene like that the point of view stays with one character. But the way you did it makes it very clear, at least, whose point of view is being given. I've written third-party omniscient stories with passages similar to this one.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

No wonder there's such a wide range of reactions to Daisy's posts.

Here in Oz there's a national curriculum delivered at state level, with a mix of government, Catholic, and private schools of various shapes and sizes.

Yeah, we have had a National Curriculum in England&Wales since the 90s - before that only RE (Religious Education) was compulsory and you often ended up with one bonkers subject in your week taught by whatever teacher was free and what they felt like teaching. Scotland and NI have their own education systems because education is a devolved matter.

I did a dissertation for a degree on education systems in the UK, US and a couple other countries, and the US I had to just resort to examples and explaining GPAs, SATs, AP, GED and college entrance, because there is no system. Rich district with lots of unis nearby? Likely excellent inspiring schools. Rural district where all the kids wangle hardship licenses to drive at 14 and most of them don't stay in school once they can work on farms at 16? Yeah. I have family who graduated high school without ever writing more than one side of paper, probably those 5-para essays mentioned upthread.

The lack of bar to get into local colleges is good for inclusion but only if it doesn't just mean kids pay a pile of fees to drop out later. And the standards in many US colleges are woefully low. Admittedly some UK colleges I could say the same, even if some can now award degrees rather than diplomas - there's no point changing a technical or craft subject to a degree if it means students write some mediocre essays but can't do the skills they'd have got from the diploma...

 

[jsmiam]

As a person who didn’t pay much attention in my high school days, and who today chooses the highly valid approach of “rephrase what sounds ‘rong”, the only point I’m qualified to make here is that the subtleties being argued go past high school level anyway.

And how’d magineer manage to insult practically everyone here back on page one and get away with it? (Hint - the ultra superior attitude insulted more than just Americans.) Perhaps there’s a career in politics ahead for him/her/they.

 

[MillieDynamite]

As I was homeschooled because of my propensity to run away from home and therefore spent little time in the education system, it was obvious I’d never keep up. Therefore, I can’t comment on the education system for middle or high school. Once I settled into my then foster home, I suppose I might have returned to the school system.

I didn’t, and I didn’t get my GED until I was confident I would ace the test. Learning from Mum and Dad was best for me. A day of learning which wasn't limited to an eight-to-three timeline. Being they both wrote and read a lot, I did the same. My writing stunk for some time. I can only hope to write as well as my father in the future.

Tense is something I still struggle with. The point of view used to be an Achilles heel. First, Second, and third person, not so much. The second-person form sucks to read, sucks to write, and should be outlawed.

Well, that’s my opinion, and I’m sticking to it.

 

[XerXesXu]

In this case, you get inside both heads, so it's 2 POVs. It's not really any different from third-person omniscient except that in this case the "he" is a "you."

Show, don't tell.

What, in that passage, do 'You' not see, hear, experience or know, in the moment? You'll appreciate (who knows?) that the first part of my question relates to PoV, the second to tense.

 

[Bramblethorn]

And how’d magineer manage to insult practically everyone here back on page one and get away with it? (Hint - the ultra superior attitude insulted more than just Americans.) Perhaps there’s a career in politics ahead for him/her/they.

Get on enough people's ignore lists, and one can say anything one likes without blowback.

 

[Bramblethorn]

People are getting hung up on technical definitions. It sounds like some want to follow a 'trump' rule - if there's any 'I's then it's first person, else I'm if there's any 'you's it's second person, else it's third person. Another way of looking at it is who is the principle character of the story - in my example 'you' feels more central that 'me'.

Protagonist and first/second/third person are different things. There are many, many books where the narrator is not the central character, but when that narrator is present in the story they're still classed as first person narration. Most of Sherlock Holmes, for instance, falls into this classification.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Protagonist and first/second/third person are different things. There are many, many books where the narrator is not the central character, but when that narrator is present in the story they're still classed as first person narration. Most of Sherlock Holmes, for instance, falls into this classification.

Yeah, okay I expressed that badly. What I was driving at was that in these weird stories under discussion, it's perfectly possible to do both first and second narration simultaneously and inner thought access to both. A lot of those stories feel more like Second with some first, rather than first with some second.


Put it this way, of you have a story that starts.

I met Bob in the street earlier today and he told me about a funny thing that happened to him. [10000 words about Bob] I laughed at his story and went on my way

Technically this is first person but for all intense and purposes it's going to be third (assuming I does a neutral retelling?and doesn't insert their own voice into it.)

 

[KeithD]

Technically this is first person but for all intense and purposes it's going to be third (assuming I does a neutral retelling?and doesn't insert their own voice into it.)

It's absolutely fully first person, and I don't see how it's ipso facto going to move to third from what's provided here.

 

[TheRedChamber]

It's absolutely fully first person, and I don't see how it's ipso facto going to move to third from what's provided here.

Because if you opened up the story and read from the middle and you go thousands and thousands of words with no indication of the first person, you're going to assume it's third. You are 'Wrong' but it hardly matters. A lot of these BDSM stories have long sections with 'I' not present at all.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

Sigh!

 

[KeithD]

Because if you opened up the story and read from the middle and you go thousands and thousands of words with no indication of the first person, you're going to assume it's third. You are 'Wrong' but it hardly matters. A lot of these BDSM stories have long sections with 'I' not present at all.

There's nothing I see on this thread that substantiates any of that. So, I have no idea what you are going on about.

This thread continues to be just a crazy mess of "whatever."

 

[TheRedChamber]

There's nothing I see on this thread that substantiates any of that. So, I have no idea what you are going on about.

This thread continues to be just a crazy mess of "whatever."

Fine. As I said several posts ago this is an argument about definitions and this ultimately unimportant. The stories I've described exist and work for some people. We can leave it there.

 

[SimonDoom]

Fine. As I said several posts ago this is an argument about definitions and this ultimately unimportant. The stories I've described exist and work for some people. We can leave it there.

What you are talking about is narrative within narrative. If "I" narrate an encounter with another person, and then I narrate what he told me, and that narration includes him telling me what he was thinking, then I think it's fair to say it's a third person POV narrative within a first person POV narrative. I agree it's silly to get wrapped up in definitions. It's much more important to understand, functionally, what's going on.
The silly thing about all this is that thread started about tense, and now we're talking about POV, which is something totally different.

 

[SimonDoom]

Show, don't tell.

What, in that passage, do 'You' not see, hear, experience or know, in the moment? You'll appreciate (who knows?) that the first part of my question relates to PoV, the second to tense.

Tense isn't an issue in your passage. It's clearly present tense.
In the latter portion of the passage you've shifted to third person POV, because there's no way "You" would know what "she" is thinking, and in the second half you narrate what "she" is thinking about exclusively. I don't understand the question in your post.

 

[XerXesXu]

I don't understand the question in your post.

That's obvious. The PoV is the person in whose moment the story is told. So long as it's told in their moment ie: what the person sees, hears, remembers, infers, assumes or otherwise knows, it is told in that person's PoV. The passage I've transcribed from 'I Don't Need You To Speak' by BellaLikesToDom is told wholly in the moment of 'You'. I've invited you to 'show not tell', you've declined - reflect on that.