Struggles with keeping tense consistent

[Kumquatqueen]

ONLY present tense? Since when?

I was wondering. Science: "We did X and observed Y." History: This happened, and that, because... EngLit: X did Y, which could be because the author intended...

There are exceptions when present makes sense: The author implies that... This software does X and fulfils Y. Geography: X is like this, because...

I'd still be surprised if half of school writing was in present tense. But then I didn't grow up learning about topic sentences nor five-para essays - just intro, arguments, conclusion, min 400 words.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I was wondering. Science: "We did X and observed Y." History: This happened, and that, because... EngLit: X did Y, which could be because the author intended...

There are exceptions when present makes sense: The author implies that... This software does X and fulfils Y. Geography: X is like this, because...

I'd still be surprised if half of school writing was in present tense. But then I didn't grow up learning about topic sentences nor five-para essays - just intro, arguments, conclusion, min 400 words.

Most fiction is past tense.

 

[AWhoopsieDaisy]

ONLY present tense? Since when?

Since the MLA guidebook became the standard. Starting in middle school all essays for any class have to use MLA because the schools want to be able to claim they're "preparing kids for college". Deviation from MLA guidelines on any typed essay drops the grade.

Grades one through five allow other tenses but they don't actually teach or grade tense. The instructions "write it how you would say it out loud."

Middle school covers tense disagreement as part of grammar but students aren't asked to actually write in past tense for any meaningful length of text.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

I'm working on a Serial Killer story with a husband and wife team of killers. I toyed with writing it in first person recounted in separate interviews of the couple. I toyed with third person present tense. For one insane minute I considered writing one part in second person, "You see him looking at you. His eyes cut through your shell and see into your soul." Once I wrote that, I thought, that SUCKS! So just a standard 3rd person limited omniscience. It's been a slow slog with all the research into all the serial killers I could find. I've yet to look at the partner killers.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Well, I'm writing a novel right now which is first person, and mostly present tense, but past tense when she's looking back at events in the last. I like that mix, and to me, 1st person and present tense is a great combo, allowing you to get into the immediacy of the character's experience and feel and experience along with her. You just have to be clear where you switch tenses as to why you're switching - and when I use it, it's always to refer back to past events that she's remembering.

I liked what Le Guin said in Steering the Craft: "It all rather sounds alike…it’s bland, predictable, risk-free. All too often, it’s McProse. The wealth and complexity of our verb forms is part of the color of the language. Using only one tense is like having a whole set of oil paints and using only pink."

It does get a bit complicated, what with past present and future tenses, and all the variations within those three tenses: The following chart shows twelve forms of the verb "to write" that result from combining time with aspect. Don't you love English LOL, I can never get all this straight in my head. I just write it so that it sounds right.....

View attachment 2191064

But the other thing you need to do is be really clear where you switch tenses. Don't do it in the middle of a paragraph for example, that just confuses everyone. Including you as the write when you come back to edit. You need to make sure there are clear breaks between sections set in different tenses and that actions in the same timeline don’t create confusion by using different tenses for the same scene’s continuous events. If you can get your head around that, it's fun, and it's not that hard to do when you have that one simple rule fixed in your head and you keep it consistent.

In the novel I'm working on I'm using present simple and past simple with 1st person which keeps it reasonably straightforward.

I did an entire story in 2nd person once ("Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow") and it worked quite well, but it was a LOT harder to write. Probably because its not something you do too often. It was fun tho.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Since the MLA guidebook became the standard.

No one but the most hard core student gives a damn about any guidebook. The vast majority of people forget all the technical jive in school the moment that the exam is over. When the amateur sits down to write fiction he falls back on 'once upon a time ...' and such, almost certainly because that is what he learned in school(!) not what he forgot in school. Does he have to? Of course not. Does it make his story better or worse? Not necessarily at all. Does that make the past tense some sort of a default? In a way, yes! It's just natural to do so. We're not talking about college exam essays here. It's fiction. It's story telling. Long long ago in a galaxy far far away ... there lived a princess in a tower ... etc, etc, etc. There are no rules but there is convention. That's not right, wrong, good nor bad. That's just how it is and that's why 90% of fiction is past tense. It's natural and it's easy to flow from brain to page.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I was wondering. Science: "We did X and observed Y."

Past tense when describing a specific experiment, but very often present or future conditional for general principles, e.g.:

"Hydrogen reacts with water to form oxygen".
"At temperatures above 560C, a hydrogen/oxygen mixture will spontaneously ignite."

 

[SimonDoom]

I did an entire story in 2nd person once ("Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow") and it worked quite well, but it was a LOT harder to write. Probably because its not something you do too often. It was fun tho.

That story is in first person POV, not 2d person. The narrator/POV character is in first person, speaking to someone in second person. That's first person POV.

Second person POV is when the story is told entirely from the POV of a second person. E.g.:

You go to the store. You wonder what you are going to buy when you get there. When you show up the clerk looks at you funny, but you ignore him and you buy boloney and white bread and mustard because that's what you want to eat for the next week.

There's no "I" in second person POV.

 

[TheRedChamber]

There's no "I" in second person POV.

True, but I feel there needs to be a term for a story where both I and You are the main protagonists. There are also a lot of BDSM stories where the innermost thoughts of You are revealed to the reader and I'd argue these are Second Person regardless of the I (and usually pretty creepy).

 

[SimonDoom]

True, but I feel there needs to be a term for a story where both I and You are the main protagonists. There are also a lot of BDSM stories where the innermost thoughts of You are revealed to the reader and I'd argue these are Second Person regardless of the I (and usually pretty creepy).

I'm curious: what are the examples of such stories? How can a story be told by an I who is privy to the thoughts of a you?

 

[XerXesXu]

I'm curious: what are the examples of such stories? How can a story be told by an I who is privy to the thoughts of a you?

Obviously, it can be done. Just do it. Clarify your objection.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I'm curious: what are the examples of such stories? How can a story be told by an I who is privy to the thoughts of a you?

This is an example of what I mean. I published a survey of BDSM about a month ago and there were about 4 of this kind of second/first POV stories published there with two weeks. It's definitely a thing there. Those stories did okay as well.

I guess one way to think of it is like Omnicient third except with characters called me and you.

 

[SimonDoom]

This is an example of what I mean. I published a survey of BDSM about a month ago and there were about 4 of this kind of second/first POV stories published there with two weeks. It's definitely a thing there. Those stories did okay as well.

I guess one way to think of it is like Omnicient third except with characters called me and you.

I would describe this POV as first person POV, where the narrator is speculating/guessing at times about the thoughts of the partner. It's not second person POV.

Think about it. How would the first person POV narrator know what's going on in the second person's head? They wouldn't. It's impossible. It makes no sense. At best they are guessing. That's why it's not 2d person POV.

I understand that there are writers that try this, but to the extent they do so I think it's confusing and unsuccessful, because it inherently makes no sense.

 

[XerXesXu]

Think about it. How would the first person POV narrator know what's going on in the second person's head? They wouldn't. It's impossible. It makes no sense. At best they are guessing. That's why it's not 2d person POV.

It's not 2nd person, but this is fiction, whether 1st, 2nd or 3rd person, the writer is always omniscient.

 

[KeithD]

Since the MLA guidebook became the standard.

TILT. The MLA isn't the standard for (or relevant to) fiction. It's for nonfiction literary criticism and studies.

 

[KeithD]

No one but the most hard core student gives a damn about any guidebook.

Bullshit. Anyone who wants to be respectfully published cares about standards and relevant guides.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I would describe this POV as first person POV, where the narrator is speculating/guessing at times about the thoughts of the partner. It's not second person POV.

Oh Simon, a dominatrix never speculates about what her sub is thinking or feeling. She knows completely which is why she's always able to fully satisfy the even the subconscious needs the sub doesn't know they have.

Think about it. How would the first person POV narrator know what's going on in the second person's head? They wouldn't. It's impossible. It makes no sense. At best they are guessing. That's why it's not 2d person POV.

I understand that there are writers that try this, but to the extent they do so I think it's confusing and unsuccessful, because it inherently makes no sense.

It's not something I would do, but I think there is an audience for it. It gives the impression that both sub and dom are in the same mind space and the Dom knows exactly what is going on.


Looked at overly logically, third person doesn't make any sense. Who's telling us all this and how do they know?

 

[ChloeTzang]

That story is in first person POV, not 2d person. The narrator/POV character is in first person, speaking to someone in second person. That's first person POV.

Second person POV is when the story is told entirely from the POV of a second person. E.g.:

You go to the store. You wonder what you are going to buy when you get there. When you show up the clerk looks at you funny, but you ignore him and you buy boloney and white bread and mustard because that's what you want to eat for the next week.

There's no "I" in second person POV.

LOL. See, it's soooo confusing. I learnt something there that I didn't know I didn't know

 

[ChloeTzang]

Bullshit. Anyone who wants to be respectively published cares about standards and relevant guides.

LOL, and that's why I try and learn all this, but owwwwww, I need to keep it simple or my head explodes

 

[SimonDoom]

It's not 2nd person, but this is fiction, whether 1st, 2nd or 3rd person, the writer is always omniscient.

LOL. See, it's soooo confusing. I learnt something there that I didn't know I didn't know

The key is whose thoughts are revealed. In your story, it's the "I" whose thoughts are revealed. "I" doesn't know what "you" is thinking.

 

[ChloeTzang]

The key is whose thoughts are revealed. In your story, it's the "I" whose thoughts are revealed. "I" doesn't know what "you" is thinking.

Ah ha - I went back and took and look and you're right - I'll have to go back again and read up on 2nd person.

 

[KeithD]

Ah ha - I went back and took and look and you're right - I'll have to go back again and read up on 2nd person.

Or don't bother. It's hardly worth the attempt to use correctly.

 

[XerXesXu]

I'll have to go back again and read up on 2nd person.

1st person is 'I and You etc' second person is 'You and He/her etc'. Find, replace.

 

[KeithD]

1st person is 'I and You' second person is 'You and He/her'. Find, replace.

Well, no, you can have he/her in first person.

The difference is what character's perspective you are writing from. For second person everything perceived/observed has to come from the mind of the "you," and in first person, you can't know for certain what's in the mind of any other character.

 

[alohadave]

Since the MLA guidebook became the standard. Starting in middle school all essays for any class have to use MLA because the schools want to be able to claim they're "preparing kids for college". Deviation from MLA guidelines on any typed essay drops the grade.

Grades one through five allow other tenses but they don't actually teach or grade tense. The instructions "write it how you would say it out loud."

Middle school covers tense disagreement as part of grammar but students aren't asked to actually write in past tense for any meaningful length of text.

I looked at the 9th edition of the MLA, and it references tense when citing works in scholarly papers. It doesn't address tense when writing fiction as far as I could see.

This is from the MLA website:

The many new and updated chapters make this edition the comprehensive, go-to resource for writers of research papers, and anyone citing sources, from business writers, technical writers, and freelance writers and editors to student writers and the teachers and librarians working with them. Intended for a variety of classroom contexts—middle school, high school, and college courses in composition, communication, literature, language arts, film, media studies, digital humanities, and related fields

So you seem to be correct that the MLA suggests present tense, it has no bearing on fiction or creative writing as it doesn't address those forms.