Story Discussion: June 12, 2009 - "Independence Day Bash" - michchick98

[michchick98]

Okay, this is a quick romance novella. It involves a reunion between two former high school sweethearts. The entire story takes place over the course of only one day, on the July 4th celebration in a small town in northeastern Michigan.

It's four chapters and there are only three chapters posted so far, but chapter four should post Saturday. The entire story is around 13,000 words. The first chapter is 1 1/2 Lit pages and the second is 1. Chapter three is 2 Lit pages and I believe the last chapter is 1 or 1 1/2 pages.

Here's the link to the first chapter:
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=424600

Although, you can get to it through the link in my sig line also.

 

[michchick98]

Basically I'm looking for honest critiques. I've got a few published e-books, but I rarely get feedback from my readers on those and I only get the "it's great, I loved it" feedback here on Lit and SOL.

What I'd like to know with this story is:

1. Was there not enough conflict between the characters? Was Cassie (the female protagonist) too forgiving?

2. Should there have been more conflict between Sebastian and Cassie's father? Or more conflict between Cassie and her father regarding Sebastian?

3. I also felt like I was kind of forcing the sex between them. Does it feel that way to other readers?

4. I know I need work on not using adverbs, but beyond that how was the grammar of the story? Were there any choppy parts or parts you think could've been left out without losing anything in the story?

5. Was the story believable? Could you picture the characters in your mind? Could you picture the settings? Did the story move too fast or too slow?

6. I know the final chapter isn't out yet, but I'd also like to know if the conclusion was too weak? Should I have gotten into more detail about what'd happened between the characters over the course of the previous year?

If I want to get better in my writing, I need more objective feedback beyond what my editor, my "beta" reader and my Lit readers give me. I have a thick skin, so be honest. I can take it.

 

[Penelope Street]

Hi Sheri,

Thanks for sharing your story with us.

I only made time to read the first chapter so far.

Was there not enough conflict between the characters?
Sure, he hurt her, but from the start it's clear she's not over him, nor he over her. With both characters obviously still pining for one another, I didn't feel any real tension.

Was Cassie too forgiving?
Not too much to be believable, but too much for me to empathize with her.

Should there have been more conflict between Sebastian and Cassie's father? Or more conflict between Cassie and her father regarding Sebastian?
I don't believe I read far enough to answer this.

I also felt like I was kind of forcing the sex between them. Does it feel that way to other readers?
Although I didn't get to the sex, I can get an idea of what you're worried about from just the kiss. Clearly, she hasn't moved on, so I guess it's appropriate for her, but when he drags her away after she tells him twice to let her go, and then she likes being kissed by him before he's even explained himself, I totally lost interest

I know I need work on not using adverbs, but beyond that how was the grammar of the story?
I noticed a few adverbs, but not enough I was even going to mention them. The only other writerly issue that detracted from my involvement was the shifting point of view. Not only did I want to stay with Cassie, I think Sebastian is one of those characters best left mysterious- so why even get into his head?

Were there any choppy parts or parts you think could've been left out without losing anything in the story?
Yes. More on this later.

Was the story believable?
It's amazing how our first loves can rate a special place in our hearts for much longer than five years. So, yes, it's totally believable.

Could you picture the characters in your mind?
Him, yes; her, not so much.

Could you picture the settings?
They didn't really stand out, but that wasn't a problem for me.

Did the story move too fast or too slow?
I found the pace to be on the sluggish side.

Should I have gotten into more detail about what'd happened between the characters over the course of the previous year?
No! I think there's already too much backstory and other unnecessary explanation, especially when the action pauses during conversations when I really wanted to just hear what they had to say.

For example:
Bash sighed. Where do I start? "All right, I told you after you went to sleep that night, I went out to have a cigarette."

"Yeah, we've established that."

"While I was outside, your father arrived. He'd been looking for you all evening." Bash paused. Cassie's father had never liked Bash and he'd always forbidden Cassie to see him. She'd lied about who she was going to prom with, but Andrea wasn't aware of the whole story so she'd told Mr. Abrams where Cassie could be found and with who.


Overall, I found this a plausible opening with believable characters, but I didn't find the characters sympathetic and I didn't see they had to overcome anything to be together- so I never felt involved or intrigued. Maybe the tension picks up in the next chapter, but if the real conflict happens later, why doesn't the story just start later?

I'll try to find time over the next few days to have a peek at the rest of it.

Take Care,
Penny

 

[michchick98]

Hi Sheri,

Thanks for sharing your story with us.

I only made time to read the first chapter so far.

Was there not enough conflict between the characters?
Sure, he hurt her, but from the start it's clear she's not over him, nor he over her. With both characters obviously still pining for one another, I didn't feel any real tension.

I either have way too much conflict and drama or not nearly enough. I need to work on a happy medium.

I also felt like I was kind of forcing the sex between them. Does it feel that way to other readers?
Although I didn't get to the sex, I can get an idea of what you're worried about from just the kiss. Clearly, she hasn't moved on, so I guess it's appropriate for her, but when he drags her away after she tells him twice to let her go, and then she likes being kissed by him before he's even explained himself, I totally lost interest

I rushed through this story when I shouldn't have. The new publisher I sent it to wanted something from her authors for Independence Day. I'm sorry you lost interest. That's definitely something I'll work on.

I know I need work on not using adverbs, but beyond that how was the grammar of the story?
I noticed a few adverbs, but not enough I was even going to mention them. The only other writerly issue that detracted from my involvement was the shifting point of view. Not only did I want to stay with Cassie, I think Sebastian is one of those characters best left mysterious- so why even get into his head?

That's another habit I need to break. Also something I'll work on.

Could you picture the characters in your mind?
Him, yes; her, not so much.
Could you picture the settings?
They didn't really stand out, but that wasn't a problem for me.

I've been told I'm not descriptive enough in my writing and I need to work on that.

Did the story move too fast or too slow?
I found the pace to be on the sluggish side.

I've had mixed feedback on this. Some say I didn't move it fast enough, some say it was too fast.

Should I have gotten into more detail about what'd happened between the characters over the course of the previous year?
No! I think there's already too much backstory and other unnecessary explanation, especially when the action pauses during conversations when I really wanted to just hear what they had to say.

I try to build up the tension when I do that, another thing that gets mixed feedback.

Overall, I found this a plausible opening with believable characters, but I didn't find the characters sympathetic and I didn't see they had to overcome anything to be together- so I never felt involved or intrigued. Maybe the tension picks up in the next chapter, but if the real conflict happens later, why doesn't the story just start later?

I should've organized the thoughts in my head better. There was a whole scene I had where Sebastian runs into someone who was competing for his attention in high school, but I took it out. Maybe I should've left it in.

I'll try to find time over the next few days to have a peek at the rest of it.

Take Care,
Penny

Well, the entire story is posted now. Thanks for your feedback, Penny. It helps.

 

[_Lynn_]

1. Was there not enough conflict between the characters?
I’m not sure there’s enough interaction between the two characters in the first chapter for me to see any conflict. I would assume that comes later.

2. Was Cassie (the female protagonist) too forgiving?
Did she forgive him in chapter 1? She walked away so I don’t know that.

3. Should there have been more conflict between Sebastian and Cassie's father? Or more conflict between Cassie and her father regarding Sebastian?
I didn't read far enough to answer this.

4. I also felt like I was kind of forcing the sex between them. Does it feel that way to other readers??
I haven’t gotten that far, but I do get the impression they both have a high school crush on each other yet. whether it's more, I can't tell.

5. I know I need work on not using adverbs, but beyond that how was the grammar of the story?
The POV shift I noticed as well as the adverbs. Other than that, I think the main issue I see is that I never get a true feel for this place. It’s a parade, a major holiday, yet it feels bland, without any excitement or crowds, nothing indicating they’re really there other than a few words saying it. I see that isn’t what the story is about, but you’re using it as a setting and title.

6. Were there any choppy parts or parts you think could've been left out without losing anything in the story?
This would be the same as my answer on detail.

7. Was the story believable?
After just one chapter, that’s hard to say. There isn’t much of a story there to answer this one.

8. Could you picture the characters in your mind?
I can somewhat from the first chapter, though a bit sketchy yet. There are the brief physical descriptions along with a few hints but not much. She seems to be a weak personality at this point, but there isn’t enough telling me after an entire chapter. We get a glimpse into his morals at the end.

9. Could you picture the settings?
No, I couldn’t. At this point, I don’t see any tie-in between the characters and the parade. It just happened to be there that he came home to see her? She mentioned the holiday is one of her favorites. Other than parades and fireworks, why is that so?

10. Did the story move too fast or too slow?
I agree with Penny that it moves slow in this chapter. There’s a lot of narrative that gets boring. I’ve been working on a similar issue with the infamous ‘info dumps’ so maybe I’m paying more attention to that. It’s difficult finding places to put this information into the real story, but it can be done.

11. Should I have gotten into more detail about what'd happened between the characters over the course of the previous year?
I agree here with Penny again that there’s too much back-story. Get to the real story, and fill it in through their dialogue. That would be so much more believable to me.



By the end of the chapter, I was ready for it to move faster. You’ve introduced several characters in the two pages, and I wonder what all of them have to do with the main couple. For example, where will the mayor and his wife fit in later? That’s an extraneous scene if they never do. Those details clutter a reader’s mind and waste words better used on your real story.

Small things are confusing at times. Cassie returned in different clothes an hour later. Where did she go and why did she change? What went through her mind when she changed? Did she choose the outfit thinking of him? Was it a comfortable outfit for her, one of her favorites that gave her confidence? Did she shower to look better and fresher for him?

She smelled him, picked up his scent. If there’s a parade, with what I would assume are throngs of people around, how did she do this? She’s near a concession stand, which in my mind leaves a strong smell in the air for a wide area around it, and always has people in line. Didn’t people bump into her when she stopped?

What did it sound like there? I never hear the sounds of laughter, of the parade, of people. Again, I know that isn’t your primary story, but using it for the setting and title, these are a few of the things I find missing.

I hope this makes sense. It was early when I read it, though I've gone back and looked at the chapter several times.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[loganforester]

What I'd like to know with this story is:

1. Was there not enough conflict between the characters? Was Cassie (the female protagonist) too forgiving?

There was precious little conflict between them at all through the three chapters I read. It causes a serious suspension of disbelief for me. I grasp the first love and she's not over him etc, but I can't see five years of pent up anger and frustration disipating that quickly.

2. Should there have been more conflict between Sebastian and Cassie's father? Or more conflict between Cassie and her father regarding Sebastian?

The lack of conflict with her and her father was truly a wasted scene I felt. It was too clean and tidy, I couldn't see any person not being more pissed at what he did than that. She essentially acused him of it, he hummed and hawed for a few seconds, then admitted it, she got a little upset for a minute and said oh but daddy I love you anyways. Truthfully, I rolled my eyes. Sorry.



3. I also felt like I was kind of forcing the sex between them. Does it feel that way to other readers?

The sex was sort of forced, it was preordained from the direction of the story that it was going to happen, so I expected it.

4. I know I need work on not using adverbs, but beyond that how was the grammar of the story? Were there any choppy parts or parts you think could've been left out without losing anything in the story?

The POV shifts as have been mentioned before were somewhat jarring, but not horrible.

5. Was the story believable? Could you picture the characters in your mind? Could you picture the settings? Did the story move too fast or too slow?

The overall plot was believeable, just lacking in tension. Like Penelope said, he was much more well drawn than she was. The town kept leaving me short of detail to try and picture. Not sure whether it was too fast or slow, it needed more current detail and less backstory. The pacing wasn't too bad, but the content of where the time was being spent was the issue.


6. I know the final chapter isn't out yet, but I'd also like to know if the conclusion was too weak? Should I have gotten into more detail about what'd happened between the characters over the course of the previous year?


I haven't read the final chapter yet, not sure if I will or not.

Overall, the plot worked but the problems were in the details. The lack of description of the town and the characters. She seemed to exist on a superficial level, something I would expect from someone still in high school not in their mid twenties. The way she interacted with Bash and went along with whatever he wanted made her seem very weak.

I did appreciate how his name tied into the story title but felt it was used too often. When you have an ununual name for a character it can be a source of stumbling when you're reading and having to go past it so often.

I hope that my review was helpful and thanks for sharing your story with us.

 

[Penelope Street]

I either have way too much conflict and drama or not nearly enough. I need to work on a happy medium.

Unless we're working with a word count limit, how can there be too much tension in a story? Aren't the best tales the ones that keep us reaching for the next page, or in the case of a film, on the edge of our seat?

I rushed through this story when I shouldn't have. The new publisher I sent it to wanted something from her authors for Independence Day.

A publisher and a deadline? Who would have thought!

I've been told I'm not descriptive enough in my writing and I need to work on that.

I don't think you need to go overboard with descriptions. Some of Lynn's ideas- smells, being jostled by crowds, can really help our immersion in her experience without driving up the word count.

I'm sorry you lost interest.

Me too! But some readers just aren't going to identify with your protagonist, so this isn't necessarily a problem with your story. Could be I'm just not part of your target audience.

I've had mixed feedback on this. Some say I didn't move it fast enough, some say it was too fast.

Maybe your porridge is just right?

By the end of the chapter, I was ready for it to move faster. You’ve introduced several characters in the two pages, and I wonder what all of them have to do with the main couple. For example, where will the mayor and his wife fit in later? That’s an extraneous scene if they never do. Those details clutter a reader’s mind and waste words better used on your real story.

I noticed the extra characters too and also didn't yet see how they fit in. This is a case where reader trust is an issue. If this was in a story from an author I know and trust, it would have raised my interest because I would have been curious what part these characters play in the tale.

Cassie returned in different clothes an hour later. Where did she go and why did she change? What went through her mind when she changed? Did she choose the outfit thinking of him? Was it a comfortable outfit for her, one of her favorites that gave her confidence? Did she shower to look better and fresher for him?

Wouldn't this would be a great way to show the reader how she feels!

She smelled him, picked up his scent. If there’s a parade, with what I would assume are throngs of people around, how did she do this? She’s near a concession stand, which in my mind leaves a strong smell in the air for a wide area around it, and always has people in line. Didn’t people bump into her when she stopped?

I accepted Cassie's 'I was just thinking of him' explanation to herself for the aftershave moment, rather than believing she'd actually caught his scent. Bash feeling like she'd sensed his presence seemed like arrogance-driven paranoia.

Overall, the plot worked but the problems were in the details, the lack of description of the town and the characters.

If there are believability issues with this tale, I agree they are in the details rather than the main plot.

She seemed to exist on a superficial level, something I would expect from someone still in high school not in their mid twenties. The way she interacted with Bash and went along with whatever he wanted made her seem very weak.

Did anyone else wonder how someone so spineless came to be in charge of an event?

I did appreciate how his name tied into the story title.

Me too. That was clever.

When you have an unusual name for a character it can be a source of stumbling when you're reading and having to go past it so often.

Maybe I've read to many fantasy novels, because odd names don't bother me one bit.

 

[jacks4u]

Hi,

I'm a soon to be first time author, and have absolutely no experience critiquing other people's stories, save a couple of assignments in a lit class I had about 8 years ago. So, if I'm way off base, or in some other way deficient, let me know!

With that said, I did read the entire 4 chapters, then scanned them again. I'll speak of what I know, perhaps deferring to more experienced writers some of the finer points.

I did like the story, and found the general plot interesting. All in all, I thought it was a good story, worth telling.

1. Was there not enough conflict between the characters? Was Cassie (the female protagonist) too forgiving?

I was surprised that there was no discussion at the marina, other than her need to seek medical evaluation.

2. Should there have been more conflict between Sebastian and Cassie's father? Or more conflict between Cassie and her father regarding Sebastian?

It's quite evident, the damage her father did to their relationship. He's clearly in damage control mode, with the risk of alienating his loving daughter unspoken, though evident by his choice to 'come clean'.

I was surprised he caved so easily though. I'm not sure I'd want my dastardly deeds to see the light of day without them being forcefully dredged up, especially if i firmly believed that Bash was a criminal-in-the-making, and would lead my precious daughter to a life of pain and sorrow, no mater how she viewed things.

3. I also felt like I was kind of forcing the sex between them. Does it feel that way to other readers?

Coitus interuptus tends to have just that effect on people. I clearly pictured the frustration in, especially Sebastian. I really was surprised by the heart attack scene, and instead thought that Max was going to tow the boat and lovers out onto the lake for ???

I was also surprised that Bash still had any remnant of arousal, after: 1) A stranger boards their boat and falls stricken by a heart attack.
2) The Coast Guard tromps through the scene assessing and treating Max, then removing him to the hospital.

What were your motives for including that scene? Was it intended to add suspense to the sex scene? Or was there some other reason?

I did find the sex scene well written, yet discrete - stroke by stroke commentary just wouldn't fit here.

4. I know I need work on not using adverbs, but beyond that how was the grammar of the story? Were there any choppy parts or parts you think could've been left out without losing anything in the story?

I'll leave this to some of the more experienced writers to comment on, nothing glared out at me other than an inappropriate word or two that a spell checker wouldn't find.

5. Was the story believable? Could you picture the characters in your mind? Could you picture the settings? Did the story move too fast or too slow?

One thing I found incredible was the amount of activity in the afternoon - from about 4:00 pm until the fireworks.

Let me explain: I live in a big city (Phoenix AZ. and trips to the emergency room are not quick - 3 to 4 hours is about average, if nothing major is wrong. Waiting for a tow truck can also be kind of time intensive, as well.

I just thought the picnic and lighthouse scenes were rushed. I really did expect the lighthouse scene to take longer, and that they would have sex there. Perhaps I'm just a lecherous old man...

6. I know the final chapter isn't out yet, but I'd also like to know if the conclusion was too weak? Should I have gotten into more detail about what'd happened between the characters over the course of the previous year?

I thought the conclusion did a good job of wrapping up or summarizing the rest of the previous year. It does, however leave out some things I'd like to know. Such as the interaction between Bash and Cassie's father. What was his reaction to their engagement? Apparently, they worked out whatever issues they had with one another, by the time Cassie and Bash married.

If I want to get better in my writing, I need more objective feedback beyond what my editor, my "beta" reader and my Lit readers give me. I have a thick skin, so be honest. I can take it.

I hope this helps, but as i said above, I'm not really experienced at writing this sort of critique.

 

[Penelope Street]

I'm a soon to be first time author, and have absolutely no experience critiquing other people's stories, save a couple of assignments in a lit class I had about 8 years ago. So, if I'm way off base, or in some other way deficient, let me know!

No experience is required and everyone is welcome to share their thoughts. If the comments are sincere and well-intended, then they can't really be off base.

 

[michchick98]

Just wanted you all to know, I am reading critiques and taking notes on what I need to improve. Don't let my silence tell you that I don't care what you all think. I wouldn't have started this thread if I didn't.

At the moment, I'm at my dad's helping him with some stuff around his house and this is the first time since this morning that I've gotten online.

 

[michchick98]

Hi,

I'm a soon to be first time author, and have absolutely no experience critiquing other people's stories, save a couple of assignments in a lit class I had about 8 years ago. So, if I'm way off base, or in some other way deficient, let me know!

I don't think you're way off base. You're a reader stating your opinion first and foremost. You're pointing out flaws. I only wish we could do this with books we read.

I did like the story, and found the general plot interesting. All in all, I thought it was a good story, worth telling.

Thanks. Glad you liked that aspect of it.

I was surprised that there was no discussion at the marina, other than her need to seek medical evaluation.

I was vague on that wasn't I? I figured it'd be left "off story" so to speak, he'd explain he saw what happened and she'd explain things as well either at the hospital or on the way...although, I don't know how possible it is to have a conversation on a motorcycle.

It's quite evident, the damage her father did to their relationship. He's clearly in damage control mode, with the risk of alienating his loving daughter unspoken, though evident by his choice to 'come clean'.

I was surprised he caved so easily though. I'm not sure I'd want my dastardly deeds to see the light of day without them being forcefully dredged up, especially if i firmly believed that Bash was a criminal-in-the-making, and would lead my precious daughter to a life of pain and sorrow, no mater how she viewed things.

I didn't want to necessarily portray Cassie or her father as "wimps" but rather as compassionate and forgiving. I would've hoped the mention of the discussion at the kitchen table between Cassie and her parents would've cleared some of that up.

Coitus interuptus tends to have just that effect on people. I clearly pictured the frustration in, especially Sebastian. I really was surprised by the heart attack scene, and instead thought that Max was going to tow the boat and lovers out onto the lake for ???

I was also surprised that Bash still had any remnant of arousal, after: 1) A stranger boards their boat and falls stricken by a heart attack.
2) The Coast Guard tromps through the scene assessing and treating Max, then removing him to the hospital.

What were your motives for including that scene? Was it intended to add suspense to the sex scene? Or was there some other reason?

Perhaps I should've chosen something else, but that's all my brain could come up with. It was to add a bit of drama to the story. As far as Bash being semi-aroused through all of it, he's simply like that because that's what Cassie does to him and although he's focused on what's happening, he's also thinking of what's happened between he and Cassie already and what's to come. (pardon the pun )

I did find the sex scene well written, yet discrete - stroke by stroke commentary just wouldn't fit here.

Thanks. (I think that deserves a thanks! )

One thing I found incredible was the amount of activity in the afternoon - from about 4:00 pm until the fireworks.

Let me explain: I live in a big city (Phoenix AZ. and trips to the emergency room are not quick - 3 to 4 hours is about average, if nothing major is wrong. Waiting for a tow truck can also be kind of time intensive, as well.

Tawas is a relatively small town. It's also a tourist town. In the summer months, there is always a lot of activity. My parents live there and although they've only had to use the Emergency room once at St. Joseph's, they've heard from others that their turnaround time is fairly quick, even in the summer months.

I also called the Iosco County Sheriff directly and asked what their turnaround time would be for a three car accident at the intersection mentioned in the story (U.S. 23 and M-55) and they told me that since they're less than a 1/4 mile away, their turnaround time is usually within 20 minutes or less, even needing 3 tow trucks.

I just thought the picnic and lighthouse scenes were rushed. I really did expect the lighthouse scene to take longer, and that they would have sex there. Perhaps I'm just a lecherous old man...

I've been to the lighthouse, but never to the top (I couldn't handle the stairs with my bad knees) so I can't really say what it's like at the top. I also have read that the lighthouse is operational, but I've been within view of it at night and have never seen it. I'll admit, I went by the seat of my pants on this one and kept it short since my knowledge was limited. I didn't know if it would even be possible to have sex at the top. And could you imagine me calling the Tawas Chamber of Commerce or the DNR or Coast Guard and saying "yeah, I'm researching a story that takes place there, and I was wondering, is it possible to have sex at the top of the lighthouse?"

I thought the conclusion did a good job of wrapping up or summarizing the rest of the previous year. It does, however leave out some things I'd like to know. Such as the interaction between Bash and Cassie's father. What was his reaction to their engagement? Apparently, they worked out whatever issues they had with one another, by the time Cassie and Bash married.

I should've gotten into more detail about that particular relationship (Bash and Cassie's dad) but I figured saying that her parents welcomed him with open arms would suffice. A year passed and "off story" Bash and Cassie's dad worked out their differences.

I hope this helps, but as i said above, I'm not really experienced at writing this sort of critique.

You did fine and I appreciate your input. Every little bit helps me become a better writer.

 

[Penelope Street]

I also called the Iosco County Sheriff directly and asked what their turnaround time would be for a three car accident at the intersection mentioned in the story (U.S. 23 and M-55) and they told me that since they're less than a 1/4 mile away, their turnaround time is usually within 20 minutes or less, even needing 3 tow trucks.

Trying to make the rest of us feel unworthy?

I've been to the lighthouse, but never to the top (I couldn't handle the stairs with my bad knees) so I can't really say what it's like at the top. I also have read that the lighthouse is operational, but I've been within view of it at night and have never seen it. I'll admit, I went by the seat of my pants on this one and kept it short since my knowledge was limited. I didn't know if it would even be possible to have sex at the top. And could you imagine me calling the Tawas Chamber of Commerce or the DNR or Coast Guard and saying "yeah, I'm researching a story that takes place there, and I was wondering, is it possible to have sex at the top of the lighthouse?"

Lighthouses do have an innate romantic appeal, don't they? We visited one several years ago. While it was a bit cramped at the summit, it was still way bigger than the average back seat. Can't say doing it there crossed my mind, but space wouldn't be an issue. Don't know whether heat and fumes might be if the light was on?

What really struck me about the place was the remoteness at the time it was built. There wasn't any road nearby, so even though not on an island, it was still supplied only by boat, leaving the keeper and his family were isolated for weeks at a time. Kinda creepy.

 

[driphoney]

I have to say that I feel uncomfortable giving an opinion to such an experienced writer, and someone who has made me feel so welcome. But, I like the concept of the Story Discussion Board and this thread in particular. In order for it to work, people have to be willing to step forward. I love romance stories and have read a boatload of them, so if I can understand anything, it should be romance, right?

So, let me first bow low to the mistress from Michigan first. I didn't read any other comments so as to make sure mine were not influenced by the thoughts of others. If I repeat, I apologize.

1. Was there not enough conflict between the characters?

I didn't think there really was any at all. She put up token resistance, but pretty much caved asap. That might not be unrealistic, but I think there would have been at least a little awkwardness between them after five years.

2. Was Cassie (the female protagonist) too forgiving?

I think maybe so. We want and need to love her, so forgiveness is going to be part of her nature, but boy, oh, boy does she get over things fast! After five agonizing years, boom, Bash is forgiven, Andrea is forgiven and her dad, instant forgiveness! If it had been me, it would have been too much. Wouldn't she have at least moped around for the evening? Five years is a long time.


3. Should there have been more conflict between Sebastian and Cassie's father? Or more conflict between Cassie and her father regarding Sebastian?

I don't think so, it's the past, so we can believe that plenty of other things went on 'off camera' so to speak. But I did have an issue with this:

"I know, Sweetheart. I just didn't like the way he dressed. He looked more like a criminal than someone who should be dating my daughter." George straightened his shoulders and looked Cassie straight in the eye. "You do know he was involved in a robbery when he was sixteen, right?"

He thinks the kid's basically a wrong-side-of-the-tracks criminal and the thing that gets him is how he's dressed? Maybe if you just left the "I just didn't like the way he dressed" line out. 'Cause the real issue wasn't his clothes, but his perceived behavior.

Now, if you'd wanted this short story to have lots of tension and high drama, then keeping Daddy mad would have been one way to do it!

4. I also felt like I was kind of forcing the sex between them. Does it feel that way to other readers??

Some things in the story felt rushed, but the sex didn't, and it felt very realistic by the time they got to it.

5. I know I need work on not using adverbs, but beyond that how was the grammar of the story?

I didn't notice over-use of adverbs. What I noticed was pronouns starting a lot of sentences. He's doing this, she's doing that, he's thinking this, she's thinking that. But this could be me projecting. I do it too much in my own writing, so have developed a full-volume radar which might be broken! And since I'm already being ridiculously anal (especially for a rank-amateur whose own grammar is the pits,) you seemed to use their names a lot in dialog, and sometimes I was jealous of how well-spoken and clear Michiganders (??) talk to each other. It could just be that I've been in the South too long.


6. Were there any choppy parts or parts you think could've been left out without losing anything in the story?

In chapter 2 where it starts with Bash pacing his aunt's kitchen. Seems you could leave the whole scene out and the story would flow and move quicker. Also, after Cassie's wreck, there seems to be a lot of small detail in that whole scene that might not be necessary


7. Was the story believable?
Yes, though, if I were Cassie, it would be a long time before I'd be talking to my cousin again!

8. Could you picture the characters in your mind?
Yes. I really liked them. Bash could have been more of a bad boy and I still would have liked him.

9. Could you picture the settings?
Yeah. It wasn't central, but I always felt placed in the scene, never lost.

10. Did the story move too fast or too slow?
There were times when it seemed to drag, either with too much head-talk or a lot of blow-by-blow or background. Finding that balance is a bugaboo, isn't it? I struggle with it a lot.

11. Should I have gotten into more detail about what'd happened between the characters over the course of the previous year?
Five years right? No, we probably got too much information if anything.

Now the hard part. Getting up my nerve to hit 'submit reply.' Thanks for sharing your story, and letting us all learn through this process.

dh

 

[_Lynn_]

So, let me first bow low to the mistress from Michigan first.

Michigan has a few of us with that title.

 

[driphoney]

A truly wonderful state then.

 

[michchick98]

Trying to make the rest of us feel unworthy?

Not in the least, but after I'd written the whole accident scene, I thought it might be best to make sure I was accurate in what I'd written, that's why I called.

Lighthouses do have an innate romantic appeal, don't they? We visited one several years ago. While it was a bit cramped at the summit, it was still way bigger than the average back seat. Can't say doing it there crossed my mind, but space wouldn't be an issue. Don't know whether heat and fumes might be if the light was on?

What really struck me about the place was the remoteness at the time it was built. There wasn't any road nearby, so even though not on an island, it was still supplied only by boat, leaving the keeper and his family were isolated for weeks at a time. Kinda creepy.

The Tawas Point Lighthouse is accessible from the road, there's actually a campground and picnic area there as well. Along with a beach, of course. However, I do know there is no dock or structure to approach the lighthouse from a boat. I've been that close to the shore to know that much at least.

 

[michchick98]

I have to say that I feel uncomfortable giving an opinion to such an experienced writer, and someone who has made me feel so welcome. But, I like the concept of the Story Discussion Board and this thread in particular. In order for it to work, people have to be willing to step forward. I love romance stories and have read a boatload of them, so if I can understand anything, it should be romance, right?

So, let me first bow low to the mistress from Michigan first. I didn't read any other comments so as to make sure mine were not influenced by the thoughts of others. If I repeat, I apologize.

Don't feel uncomfortable, DH. As I said, if I didn't want honest opinions, I wouldn't have started this thread.

1. Was there not enough conflict between the characters?

I didn't think there really was any at all. She put up token resistance, but pretty much caved asap. That might not be unrealistic, but I think there would have been at least a little awkwardness between them after five years.

2. Was Cassie (the female protagonist) too forgiving?

I think maybe so. We want and need to love her, so forgiveness is going to be part of her nature, but boy, oh, boy does she get over things fast! After five agonizing years, boom, Bash is forgiven, Andrea is forgiven and her dad, instant forgiveness! If it had been me, it would have been too much. Wouldn't she have at least moped around for the evening? Five years is a long time.

As I said to a previous person, I wanted to portray Cassie as compassionate and forgiving. Perhaps I made her too forgiving.

3. Should there have been more conflict between Sebastian and Cassie's father? Or more conflict between Cassie and her father regarding Sebastian?

I don't think so, it's the past, so we can believe that plenty of other things went on 'off camera' so to speak. But I did have an issue with this:

"I know, Sweetheart. I just didn't like the way he dressed. He looked more like a criminal than someone who should be dating my daughter." George straightened his shoulders and looked Cassie straight in the eye. "You do know he was involved in a robbery when he was sixteen, right?"

He thinks the kid's basically a wrong-side-of-the-tracks criminal and the thing that gets him is how he's dressed? Maybe if you just left the "I just didn't like the way he dressed" line out. 'Cause the real issue wasn't his clothes, but his perceived behavior.

Now, if you'd wanted this short story to have lots of tension and high drama, then keeping Daddy mad would have been one way to do it!

When I was in high school, I dated a guy similar to Bash....long hair, rode a motorcycle, smoked, etc....and I can always remember my dad saying "he dresses like a hoodlum" but the ironic thing was, my boyfriend was quite the opposite of being a "hoodlum." He just liked causing a stir with the way he dressed. I lost touch with him after high school, I wonder what he's doing these days? *sigh*

4. I also felt like I was kind of forcing the sex between them. Does it feel that way to other readers??

Some things in the story felt rushed, but the sex didn't, and it felt very realistic by the time they got to it.

Once again, the rushed parts were due to me rushing to get something to the new publisher who wanted a story for Independence Day. And a small amount, too, was due to people emailing me and asking when I'd post my next story. The story wasn't originally intended to be posted here, but I did anyway, to give people something so they didn't think I'd vanished.

5. I know I need work on not using adverbs, but beyond that how was the grammar of the story?

I didn't notice over-use of adverbs. What I noticed was pronouns starting a lot of sentences. He's doing this, she's doing that, he's thinking this, she's thinking that. But this could be me projecting. I do it too much in my own writing, so have developed a full-volume radar which might be broken! And since I'm already being ridiculously anal (especially for a rank-amateur whose own grammar is the pits,) you seemed to use their names a lot in dialog, and sometimes I was jealous of how well-spoken and clear Michiganders (??) talk to each other. It could just be that I've been in the South too long.

My editor and I went through and took out a lot of uses of their names throughout the story. I guess we missed the dialogue and went too far with the rest of the story. But beyond using the character(s) names too frequently or he/his she/her, what other options do we have?

6. Were there any choppy parts or parts you think could've been left out without losing anything in the story?

In chapter 2 where it starts with Bash pacing his aunt's kitchen. Seems you could leave the whole scene out and the story would flow and move quicker. Also, after Cassie's wreck, there seems to be a lot of small detail in that whole scene that might not be necessary.

Opposite of another (on the scene after Cassie's accident) where I was told I could've added more detail and/or dialogue.

8. Could you picture the characters in your mind?
Yes. I really liked them. Bash could have been more of a bad boy and I still would have liked him.

Aren't the bad boys sexy? Mmmmm!

9. Could you picture the settings?
Yeah. It wasn't central, but I always felt placed in the scene, never lost.

Again, an opposite opinion. I do have problems being descriptive sometimes, but it seems you thought it was enough.

10. Did the story move too fast or too slow?
There were times when it seemed to drag, either with too much head-talk or a lot of blow-by-blow or background. Finding that balance is a bugaboo, isn't it? I struggle with it a lot.

Yeah, it's hard to determine what's going to please a reader or turn him/her away.

11. Should I have gotten into more detail about what'd happened between the characters over the course of the previous year?
Five years right? No, we probably got too much information if anything.

Well, what I meant was in the last part of the story where I fast forwarded a year. Even my dad said I could've added more detail about what happened between Cassie and Bash and her family.

Now the hard part. Getting up my nerve to hit 'submit reply.' Thanks for sharing your story, and letting us all learn through this process.

dh

Now, that wasn't so hard, was it? Thanks for the critique/comments.

 

[driphoney]

My editor and I went through and took out a lot of uses of their names throughout the story. I guess we missed the dialogue and went too far with the rest of the story. But beyond using the character(s) names too frequently or he/his she/her, what other options do we have?

I wasn't clear at all. I was thinking very specifically of starting sentences with he/she and no, we have no other options when referring to our characters. I started to give examples, but felt I was going on and on so I didn't. Going back to it now, I do feel I was just projecting my own issues, because the second time through I couldn't find a good example.

I'm sorry if I repeated or constantly contradicted other commenters. I wanted to make sure that my opinions were my own (such as they were) and not influenced by others.

I liked your characters and their situation so much that I would have followed them through a much longer story. I could relate to Cassie (a girl thing, I guess) and would have loved to see more sides of Bash. I love men, what can I say? Especially fictional ones!

Wish I could go on and read some more michchick lit, but "The Universal Context of Life" must be trudged through tonight. [sigh]

 

[Penelope Street]

I'm sorry if I repeated or constantly contradicted other commenters.

You needn't be; redundant and conflicting comments are both helpful in their own way.

 

[jacks4u]

Sorry for taking so long to get back into this, but I think I can be of further help:

By michchick98:
I didn't want to necessarily portray Cassie or her father as "wimps" but rather as compassionate and forgiving. I would've hoped the mention of the discussion at the kitchen table between Cassie and her parents would've cleared some of that up.

That was my impression of Cassie's father (compassionate and forgiving) , and you definitely achieved your goal there. As I stated above, I'm not sure I'd be so kind, forgiving. But then, I have never meddled in my children's affairs, especially since they are both grown men (28/35 years old). I suppose it would have been different if I had girls

Tawas is a relatively small town. It's also a tourist town. In the summer months, there is always a lot of activity. My parents live there and although they've only had to use the Emergency room once at St. Joseph's, they've heard from others that their turnaround time is fairly quick, even in the summer months.

I also called the Iosco County Sheriff directly and asked what their turnaround time would be for a three car accident at the intersection mentioned in the story (U.S. 23 and M-55) and they told me that since they're less than a 1/4 mile away, their turnaround time is usually within 20 minutes or less, even needing 3 tow trucks.

It's interesting that you did that level of research into this story (This is something I can take back to my own writing...

I've been to the lighthouse, but never to the top (I couldn't handle the stairs with my bad knees) so I can't really say what it's like at the top. I also have read that the lighthouse is operational, but I've been within view of it at night and have never seen it. I'll admit, I went by the seat of my pants on this one and kept it short since my knowledge was limited. I didn't know if it would even be possible to have sex at the top. And could you imagine me calling the Tawas Chamber of Commerce or the DNR or Coast Guard and saying "yeah, I'm researching a story that takes place there, and I was wondering, is it possible to have sex at the top of the lighthouse?"

LOL! I'm still laughing over that. I've read some quite interresting stories here on lit., and have come to expect bizarre, or different. take for example, erm oh wait! Am I allowed to reference other lit. stories, by authors not present?

Well, no mater, some that I've read seem to have sex literally everywhere. Perhaps that's just a case of ummm conditioning

but then some storys seem to be totally un-natural - how does a guy climax 7 (count em) seven times and still have enough spunk left at the end for a perl necklace?

 

[Tarakin]

Okay, my 2 cents for the story:

Bad things first: In my opinion the story was too long, especially the car accident wasn't that necessary and the heart attack was just interrupting the sex scene in my eyes. What was the gain in both? With the accident at least Bash was introduced as caring (bringing her flowers), but on the boat? He does want to have Cassie so badly that nothing is able to interrupt him, not even medics and policemen? Hm.

The POV-switch was not good for the story also. Stick with Cassie, let her see Bash's reactions, then the flower scene has a totally different impact for her (and the readers) for instance.

Cassie did forgive Bash a bit too early in my opinion, and her father way too early. He robbed her of her love, and after seeing that it wasn't just a crush he didn't do anything to repair it? She should be fuming some more, even if this is a romance.

Another thing I had to smile at was his proposal: "You never have a harsh word to say to anyone." Before that she sweared to make the wind blue and he loved her honesty with everyone. Could be a bit contradictious, could it?

Now the good parts:
First of all, I read until the end, so the story obviously captured me somehow. That's not too easy

I liked Cassie's description, and even more the scetched sex scene. I was a bit disappointed when they just stripped and would have wished for more details (memories of the last time, her body having changed like he noted while she was still clothed, something like that), but what followed was very sensual and very good. It was also good that not every detail was described after the play of tongues, it fitted the story well.

The landscape was described well also, not too much detail, I had just wished for the couple to see all of the fireworks from the lighthouse instead of being there for just ten minutes. But that shows how much I liked them being a couple I guess

It was also okay to not go into Andrea's 'sin' too much, since it was clear that Cassie accepted every apologize she would do this for Andrea also, so it was okay.

I liked the one-year-later part. All to the point, a happy ending, that is fitting for a romance. Let them grow old together.

All in all a story with a few flaws, but with some strong points also. Good work!

 

[michchick98]

Okay, my 2 cents for the story:

Bad things first: In my opinion the story was too long, especially the car accident wasn't that necessary and the heart attack was just interrupting the sex scene in my eyes. What was the gain in both? With the accident at least Bash was introduced as caring (bringing her flowers), but on the boat? He does want to have Cassie so badly that nothing is able to interrupt him, not even medics and policemen? Hm.

As I told someone else (jacks4u I think) just Cassie being near Bash kept him in a semi-aroused state. Perhaps I should've touched on that a bit.

The POV-switch was not good for the story also. Stick with Cassie, let her see Bash's reactions, then the flower scene has a totally different impact for her (and the readers) for instance.

I have a problem with switching POV a lot, but mostly every print book I read does the same thing, so as much as I try to break the habit, it seems to keep coming back. I'll try to work on it.

Cassie did forgive Bash a bit too early in my opinion, and her father way too early. He robbed her of her love, and after seeing that it wasn't just a crush he didn't do anything to repair it? She should be fuming some more, even if this is a romance.

I'll admit I did have her forgive everyone too easily. Perhaps I should've made her a bit more angry with what'd happened.

Another thing I had to smile at was his proposal: "You never have a harsh word to say to anyone." Before that she sweared to make the wind blue and he loved her honesty with everyone. Could be a bit contradictious, could it?

Not necessarily. I know people who can curse worse than a sailor when they're pissed off or passionate about something, but have never said mean things toward or about anyone.

Now the good parts:

First of all, I read until the end, so the story obviously captured me somehow. That's not too easy

Well, that's a good thing!

I liked Cassie's description, and even more the scetched sex scene. I was a bit disappointed when they just stripped and would have wished for more details (memories of the last time, her body having changed like he noted while she was still clothed, something like that), but what followed was very sensual and very good. It was also good that not every detail was described after the play of tongues, it fitted the story well.

Sometimes I like getting right to the sex, sometimes I like to build it up. In this case, it was obvious what was going to happen and since they'd already had sex when they were younger, I figured just get right to it.

The landscape was described well also, not too much detail, I had just wished for the couple to see all of the fireworks from the lighthouse instead of being there for just ten minutes. But that shows how much I liked them being a couple I guess

As I said before, I've never been to the top of the lighthouse in this story, so I don't know much about it. Being that it was "after hours" and they weren't really supposed to be there, I figured the quick visit was good enough.

It was also okay to not go into Andrea's 'sin' too much, since it was clear that Cassie accepted every apologize she would do this for Andrea also, so it was okay.

More of that took place "off screen" (so to speak.) I think it's safe to say I made Cassie too forgiving even though I tried to imply she did talk things out with her cousin and her father.

I liked the one-year-later part. All to the point, a happy ending, that is fitting for a romance. Let them grow old together.

All in all a story with a few flaws, but with some strong points also. Good work!

Glad you liked it and thanks for the input.

 

[PrincessErin]

.....

 

[michchick98]

Better late then never..
My life has been crazy but I wanted to read and comment.

Thanks for the feedback, Erin. I know it's currently Jack's turn in the queue, so I'll keep my reply brief.

The more I think about this particular story, the more I realized that I was doing a couple things I normally don't.

1. I rushed through the story to get something to the new publisher who wanted a story for Independence Day.

2. I had the ideas in my head for the story, but they got jumbled and I got off track. I just started writing whatever came to mind, causing me to rush through the story. In my haste, it probably wasn't one of my best works.

3. I'm a sucker for a happy ending in romance novels and perhaps I've read too many lately. The ending was too predictable, but it was at least happy.

Thanks for your comments. Anything further I'll reserve for PMs or email.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.