Sigh. It never ends

[rgraham666]

His Holiness, The Pope, makes it very clear where he stands.

And makes it very clear that secularists such as myself, and Protestants, and Muslims, and well, everybody except straight Catholics who don't ask questions and obey without hesitation are going to Hell.

Blow me, you neanderthal asshole.

 

[LadyCibelle]

That's pretty insulting for the Neanderthal don't you think?

 

[Stella_Omega]

I particularly like this quote;
"Meanwhile relativism, meaning allowing oneself to be carried away 'here and there by any wind of doctrine,' appears as the only attitude to modern times. What's being constructed is a dictatorship of relativism, which recognizes nothing as definite and that regards one's self and one's own desires as the final measure.""

If a world authority like Benedict misrepresents relativism so drastically, why should we expect the main of humanity to understand it?

 

[rgraham666]

Well, the Pope has a reason to misrepresent it, Stella. It constitutes a major challenge to his power after all.

 

[oggbashan]

That has always been the Catholic Church's position - if you are not one of us, you are denied salvation.

Most other faiths have the same position and except for Muslims they don't state it so clearly.

Some faith groups have even more virulent views - if you interact with anyone not part of the group you are expelled into the outer darkness.

As Henry VIII, formerly Defender of the Faith, I was excommunicated. Unlike my predecessors, I didn't care. Excommunication, and placing a whole country under an interdict, was an extreme sanction. While under an interdict no child could be baptised, no one could marry, and anyone who died could not be buried in a churchyard and was not admitted to heaven - a severe punishment in the Middle Ages.

As members of the AH we are probably damned by many religious groups. We are doomed, doomed I say, doomed to everlasting hell and damnation. We might as well enjoy ourselves while we're here...

Og

 

[past_perfect]

Well, the Pope has a reason to misrepresent it, Stella. It constitutes a major challenge to his power after all.

There is no challenge, he is infallible after all, so everyone else's conceptions must be wrong.

Since he is dogmatism personified, those comments don't surprise me one bit.

The problem with Benedict is that in his heart he's a German professor without a politically sensitive bone in his body.

Worse: He is a Bavarian professor.

 

[rgraham666]

I suppose pointing out to him Pride is a deadly sin is not a ploy likely to work.

 

[Belegon]

I can't say this dismays me, because it is completely and totally what I expect.

The owners of McDonald's don't want you to eat at Wendy's. The Catholic Church doesn't want you to pray at a presbyterian church.

It's a rare business that encourages you to patronize the competition.

 

[English Lady]

I don't know the Pope personally but I certainly know alot of Catholics and I've not met a one that hasn't been incredibly laid back and accepting of other folks.

If he has chosen this fight, it's a bit sad 'cos I'd like to see Christians uniting, forgetting all differences and just, you know, getting on with the whole loving and caring and ministering thing and not being divided by yet another man made decision.

I'm all for getting back to basics, for preaching the truth (i am the way, the truth and the life said Jesus) and saving souls and all that but insulting a pile of people in the process? I'm not sure that's particularly clever.

 

[English Lady]

I can't say this dismays me, because it is completely and totally what I expect.

The owners of McDonald's don't want you to eat at Wendy's. The Catholic Church doesn't want you to pray at a presbyterian church.

It's a rare business that encourages you to patronize the competition.

My heart was warmed when my vicar, a very "by the book" Anglican said that getting people into the church was the aim of our ministry but that didn't need to mean our church it could be ay of them and we should still celebrate. It's not all about us and boosting attendance figures.

More people need that attitudeI think.

 

[Guest]

His Holiness, The Pope, makes it very clear where he stands.

And makes it very clear that secularists such as myself, and Protestants, and Muslims, and well, everybody except straight Catholics who don't ask questions and obey without hesitation are going to Hell.

Blow me, you neanderthal asshole.

Dang.

This is so going to shock my mother. She has it all wrong.

Well, I suppose trying to figure out those soul-searching questions I've been having is a moot point, hmm?

 

[Recidiva]

The present pope scares me. He really does.

I just have this instinctive ooginess when I see him speak that I get when I watch CSI: Miami and I see David Caruso play a self-righteous cop.

My immediate and gut reaction is "I would never leave this person in a room alone with my kids. Ever. See that honey? You meet someone that looks and talks like that, you RUN, okay?"

Whereas I loved Pope John Paul and I miss his compassion and humanity. I also think Gil Grissom would be awesome as a babysitter.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I don't know the Pope personally but I certainly know alot of Catholics and I've not met a one that hasn't been incredibly laid back and accepting of other folks.

If he has chosen this fight, it's a bit sad 'cos I'd like to see Christians uniting, forgetting all differences and just, you know, getting on with the whole loving and caring and ministering thing and not being divided by yet another man made decision.

I'm all for getting back to basics, for preaching the truth (i am the way, the truth and the life said Jesus) and saving souls and all that but insulting a pile of people in the process? I'm not sure that's particularly clever.

Yes, I'm with you on that. I agree that relativism has its unpleasant extremes, but then so does orthodoxy.

My most comforting thought at the moment is that this is coming from a man widely recognized as one of the most conservative / traditionalist in the hierarchy and that other excellent inter-faith movements are proceeding with, without, or around him as we speak. Here's hoping that the dinosaurs manage to shuffle their way slowly from the stage.

The present pope scares me. He really does.

I just have this instinctive ooginess when I see him speak that I get when I watch CSI: Miami and I see David Caruso play a self-righteous cop.

I'm not a great fan, either. I was confessedly disappointed (although not surprised) when he was chosen. It's an awkward thing to be hoping for a short papacy, given the way the office traditionally changes hands. I'd pray that he be inspired to break with tradition and simply step down and hand off to the next when he's tired, but what are the odds that reason and tact will predominate over tradition with this one?

 

[Recidiva]

I'm not a great fan, either. I was confessedly disappointed (although not surprised) when he was chosen. It's an awkward thing to be hoping for a short papacy, given the way the office traditionally changes hands. I'd pray that he be inspired to break with tradition and simply step down and hand off to the next when he's tired, but what are the odds that reason and tact will predominate over tradition with this one?

A good enough reason to believe in the power of prayer, right there!

I really wish the Catholic Church well. So much good in there. So much history, so much beautiful music, beautiful thought, beautiful art.

And fortunately, as shown by your presence, absolutely stunning believers.

 

[BlackShanglan]

And makes it very clear that secularists such as myself, and Protestants, and Muslims, and well, everybody except straight Catholics who don't ask questions and obey without hesitation are going to Hell.

I'm not jumping to his defense; I differ with him considerably. However, what I saw in the article didn't look like it was necessarily that dire. I'm looking at this line:

First there was an announcement to allow a broader use of the old Latin Mass, a step back from the liturgical reforms of Vatican II; and then a pronouncement from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the church's ideological overseer, that Protestant churches were defective and not really full churches like the Catholic Church.

Granted, "not as good as" or "defective" is never going to be either nice or tactful, and it seems prideful to me - not because there might not conceivably be one sort of church that's best, but because it's arrogant for any human to declare that he's got the answer to what God wants. Still, what the article reports him saying is that other churches are not as good, not that everyone in them is doomed to Hell. They might not lead people to God as effectively or "correctly," but that doesn't necessarily imply that they're tools of Satan.

That's just the article's summary, of course. I've poked about a little trying to find a transcript of the actual sermon, but thus far, no luck. I'm curious what his own words were.

 

[CharleyH]

His Holiness, The Pope, makes it very clear where he stands.

And makes it very clear that secularists such as myself, and Protestants, and Muslims, and well, everybody except straight Catholics who don't ask questions and obey without hesitation are going to Hell.

Blow me, you neanderthal asshole.

You are so a non-prejudiced and open and accepting person I applaud. RG. :|

 

[rengadeirishman]

as a baptized catholic (though far from orthodox in my beliefs) I submit this to all, as to why im leery to listen to what benedict says.

does anyone else remember what happened last time we had a german leader standing on a balcony deliviering a speech to an adoring throng?

(i would like to say that this a joke, and that i bear no ill will toward the german people.)

I think its time for a proper irish pope, come now college of cardinals, who suffered more for being catholic then the irish?

 

[Oblimo]

That has always been the Catholic Church's position - if you are not one of us, you are denied salvation.

That's not entirely true. The Vatican II's position (which, I'm suspect, the current Pope might not like very much) is more finessed:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.

It's a rather cryptic declaration though.

 

[Equinoxe]

I'm somewhat surprised by some of the responses to the Pope's statements since they are nothing new.

The Pope is not saying that all non-Catholics are going to Hell. If you asked the Pope who was going to Hell, he would tell you that only God knows the answer to that question.

The Pope's statements are in keeping with the doctrine of the Catholic Church (which the Church considers absolutely true and divinely sanctioned) and that is that all salvation is through Christ and the Catholic Church is the organ of salvation on Earth. As the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church with the Pope as Heir of Saint Peter and Vicar of Christ, the doctrines of the Catholic Church and Papal proclamations ex cathedra are reflective of the Laws of God and on matters of faith and morals the Church cannot err - subsequently, any belief other than Catholicism and any Church which is not in agreement with the Catholic Church is necessarily, in some respect, wrong and cannot be considered equally true or valid. This is both theologically and *puts on her Joe W hat* logically corollary. He is, futhermore, arguing against those who hold that the Catholic Church should consider other beliefs equally valid.

In other words, if you're a Protestant, a Muslim, or a Jew, you may still go to Heaven, but it won't be through Protestant Christianity, Islam, or Judaism.

Or so says the Pope at any rate.