Should Men Still Be Expected for dates????

busybody..

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It's not the most romantic subject for Valentine's Day, but the unfair expectation that men must pay for dates, which came under commendable feminist attack during the 1970s, is, surprisingly, almost as strong today as it was before women's liberation. There are several standard justifications given for not splitting the check:

Justification #1: "Women have to spend more on clothes, shoes, perfume, etc., so it's only fair that men pay."

It's true that women's clothes, shoes, etc., can cost considerably more than men's, but men who date must reciprocate by having a presentable car and a presentable place to live, both of which are far more expensive. After all, a marriage-age man who lives at home is considered undesirable, but did you ever see a man turn down a promising date because she lived with mom and dad or drove an old junker? I didn't think so.

Justification #2: "Men make more money than women do for the same job."

This is one of the most persistent myths of our time. Studies by liberal (AFL-CIO), dissident feminist (The Independent Women's Forum), and conservative (Hoover Institution) organizations have found that single men do not earn more than single women. The gender wage gap is caused by the career sacrifices that mothers make for their children, and the personal sacrifices fathers make (longer work weeks, more hazardous jobs, etc.) in order to earn the money to support those children. Neither of these is generally an issue in dating.

Justification #3: "I'm old-fashioned. I expect the man to pay because it's chivalrous."

The problem is that many men have understandably come to hear this as "I'm old fashioned when it suits me. When it doesn't, well, that's a different story." After all, what would a modern woman say if her date said "I'm old-fashioned. I expect the woman to do all the cooking"?

Justification #4: "Whoever asks for the date should pay."

And who is always expected to ask? Need I ask?

Justification #5: "Well, if men expect to get something, they should expect to pay for it."

It is Neanderthal for a man to expect to "get something" simply because he has paid for a date. Also, since women enjoy sex as much as men do, even if a woman does have sex with a man "because he paid" it's still unfair to the man because he's paying for the privilege of doing something which is mutually pleasurable.

Justification #6: "It's just easier this way."

This claim certainly has merit. The rise of feminism demolished many of society's rules and traditions, usually for the better. But when it comes to dating, nobody really knows what the rules are anymore, and in this confusion often both men and women find it easier to fall back on tradition.

Enough! The obligation of a man to pay can wound a budding relationship by placing money and one-sided expectations where love and honesty should be. In addition, its innate unfairness hinders the uneasy rapprochement men and women are currently negotiating after three decades of gender conflict. In the long run, abolishing this outmoded social convention will benefit both men and women. And what's fair is fair.

Oh, and guys, be sure not to order the most expensive item on the menu, OK?

This column first appeared in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch (2/14/02).

Glenn Sacks writes about men's and fathers' issues. His <http://www.glennsacks.com/glenns_columns.htm>columns have appeared in dozens of the largest newspapers in the United States.
 
Wait, where is the political faery tale? Where is the conspiracy theory? Aren't you going to claim terrorists own Hallmark?
 
Jeez, busybody cannot even cut and paste properly.

The answer is that there isnt a good reason for Men to pay.
 
I don't think it's fair, but men have usually paid for dates in my experience.
 
busybody said:
It's not the most romantic subject for Valentine's Day, but the unfair expectation that men must pay for dates, which came under commendable feminist attack during the 1970s, is, surprisingly, almost as strong today as it was before women's liberation. There are several standard justifications given for not splitting the check:

Justification #1: "Women have to spend more on clothes, shoes, perfume, etc., so it's only fair that men pay."

It's true that women's clothes, shoes, etc., can cost considerably more than men's, but men who date must reciprocate by having a presentable car and a presentable place to live, both of which are far more expensive. After all, a marriage-age man who lives at home is considered undesirable, but did you ever see a man turn down a promising date because she lived with mom and dad or drove an old junker? I didn't think so.

Justification #2: "Men make more money than women do for the same job."

This is one of the most persistent myths of our time. Studies by liberal (AFL-CIO), dissident feminist (The Independent Women's Forum), and conservative (Hoover Institution) organizations have found that single men do not earn more than single women. The gender wage gap is caused by the career sacrifices that mothers make for their children, and the personal sacrifices fathers make (longer work weeks, more hazardous jobs, etc.) in order to earn the money to support those children. Neither of these is generally an issue in dating.

Justification #3: "I'm old-fashioned. I expect the man to pay because it's chivalrous."

The problem is that many men have understandably come to hear this as "I'm old fashioned when it suits me. When it doesn't, well, that's a different story." After all, what would a modern woman say if her date said "I'm old-fashioned. I expect the woman to do all the cooking"?

Justification #4: "Whoever asks for the date should pay."

And who is always expected to ask? Need I ask?

Justification #5: "Well, if men expect to get something, they should expect to pay for it."

It is Neanderthal for a man to expect to "get something" simply because he has paid for a date. Also, since women enjoy sex as much as men do, even if a woman does have sex with a man "because he paid" it's still unfair to the man because he's paying for the privilege of doing something which is mutually pleasurable.

Justification #6: "It's just easier this way."

This claim certainly has merit. The rise of feminism demolished many of society's rules and traditions, usually for the better. But when it comes to dating, nobody really knows what the rules are anymore, and in this confusion often both men and women find it easier to fall back on tradition.

Enough! The obligation of a man to pay can wound a budding relationship by placing money and one-sided expectations where love and honesty should be. In addition, its innate unfairness hinders the uneasy rapprochement men and women are currently negotiating after three decades of gender conflict. In the long run, abolishing this outmoded social convention will benefit both men and women. And what's fair is fair.

Oh, and guys, be sure not to order the most expensive item on the menu, OK?

This column first appeared in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch (2/14/02).

Glenn Sacks writes about men's and fathers' issues. His <http://www.glennsacks.com/glenns_columns.htm>columns have appeared in dozens of the largest newspapers in the United States.

Holy crap! You're right!
 
Rubyfruit said:
I don't think it's fair, but men have usually paid for dates in my experience.

Have you ever offered to share?

Have you ever offered to take HIM out?
 
sexy-girl said:
i think men should pay for all my dates :)

*laughing*

I was just going to quip, Wait, what if there is no man on the date? That's really going to confuse you.


Whomever requests the date, pays for the date.
 
My mother always taught me never to let a man pay for anything, unless it was agreed upon that I would pay for the next thing.
 
Pyper said:
My mother always taught me never to let a man pay for anything, unless it was agreed upon that I would pay for the next thing.

I take back the short bus comment......
 
perky_baby said:
*laughing*

I was just going to quip, Wait, what if there is no man on the date? That's really going to confuse you.


Whomever requests the date, pays for the date.


lol i try to get in there quickly to post the obvious bad jokes before someone else does :p
 
No woman ever pays when we go out. I won't let her. To me it's a simple matter of honor. To their everlasting credit, though, they always offer, which makes them all the cuter.
 
I'm still uncomfortable with the idea of a man paying my way, on a date.

If I am with a man who insists, then I always bring a gift for him.
 
As a student, the question of who pays has usually been more of a matter of who happens to have a little bit of cash left after paying the bills – but I aim for an average of 50/50. Doesn't always worked though – for awhile I was with a guy who had one of those real job thingies with spending money (it was all very surreal!), and it quickly wound up coming down to either refusing to go anywhere with him, or letting him pay. I opted for letting him pay, but I was never really comfortable with not paying my share, and he just couldn't understand why I didn't like him buying stuff for me...

Thank god he soon discovered my penchant for killing flowers and babies n'stuff, and called it off :)
 
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If the guy asks, then he should pay.
And why not? He's enjoying the pleasure of my company. :)

I'll ask if I have to (I'm not really comfortable with it) and I don't mind paying if I do ask,
. . . but I feel it's better if he insists. :D

(Oh yeah, men still should be expected for dates, even the slackers) :p
 
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Mona said:
If the guy asks, then he should pay.
And why not? He's enjoying the pleasure of my company. :)

I'll ask if I have to (I'm not really comfortable with it) and I don't mind paying if I do ask,
. . . but I feel it's better if he insists. :D

(Oh yeah, men still should be expected for dates, even the slackers) :p


Hah I love your double standards.
You sound like someone men pay to have dinner with, among other things...
 
I just pay for the first few dates. As things progress and move along and I become better friends with the woman I expect her to pay a little sometimes.
 
stgeorge6602 said:
Hah I love your double standards.
You sound like someone men pay to have dinner with, among other things...

That is SOOOOO rude. :mad:

What double standards? :confused:
All I'm saying is that if the guy asks and pays, he isn't enititled to anything more than my time, I'm not and should not be obligated to anything other than that. It's the risk one takes when asking anyone out. There's no guarantee that the date is going to be great or that anything will come from it.

There's nothing wrong with hoping that a guy is chivalrous enough to pay. It shows that they're considerate.
 
badasschick said:
I'm still uncomfortable with the idea of a man paying my way, on a date.

If I am with a man who insists, then I always bring a gift for him.

Good for you.....

I know......that since I got divorced......I always appreciated when a women offered to pay for half.......

I usually didnt take her up on the offer......only because of economic reasons......but to me, an offer was always a way of me seeing her character......
 
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