Shame and Humiliation

[AllardChardon]

Stella, do you mean women's genitalia is not threatening the way men's are? The angry looking cockhead, all worked up and red, so to speak?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Met three women at a garage sale morning on my way back from dropping off my oldest at school. They commented on my clean nails concluding that I must not work with my hands for a living. After I described the considerable scrubbing and moisturizing that was required to rehydrate and get the grout out from under my nails after this last tile job, they asked if I was the "guy with the big house on ___"? After assuring them I was not, they all three visibly deflated, and the conversation trailed to an end with no further inquiries.

How ought I interpret this?

It's the teeth in their pussies. Or else shame.

Or. they were hoping that you'd invite them in to see all the work on the big house on ___

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stella, do you mean women's genitalia is not threatening the way men's are? The angry looking cockhead, all worked up and red, so to speak?

I don't think mens cocks are very threatening either! That red color looks needy, to me-- desperate for some attention.
I don't get the scary genitals routine. Yes, a guy can do a lot of damage in a rape. But doctors have mentioned that they can tell when a man has used his cock violently-- it's bruised and abraded, sometimes badly enough to become infected.
Fists, guns, lawyers-- those are scary.

 

[AllardChardon]

So no genitalia is threatening, then? Makes sense. I thought I was the same way until I surfed the net looking at pussies one night. I was shocked by the diversity of it all. And XssVe's AV topped what I had seen. So, I admit, I am still a babe in the woods for the most part...

 

[xssve]

The overreaction of the fearful, that's scary.

I'm compelled to note that in all of this, you have never really attempted to define what you imagine the "essential nature" of woman to be, but merely attacked what you perceive as my mine - a common political trick, the unstated assumption - a whole catalog of propaganda techniques in fact: ad hominem, labelling and demonization (misogyny, infantilization), transfer, half truths and quotes out of context, bandwagon appeals, etc.,

Deja vu - but of course, I'm probably just being paranoid, right?

 

[xssve]

The market Allard:

* Bakunyū, the depiction of women with large breasts. Literally translated to "bursting breasts".
* Futanari, depictions of hermaphrodites or transsexuals that have both phallic genitalia (penis with scrotum, only a penal shaft, or an enlarged clitoris) and vaginal genitalia or a feminine hourglass shape including breasts and a penis plus scrotum.
* BDSM, A spectrum of consensual sexual activities considered to be "kinky" or non mainstream, including such topics as power exchange (domination and submission), bondage, sadomasochism, spanking, etc.
* Bestiality
* Breast-oriented torture and Breast bondage, BDSM practices focusing on breasts, many times coupled with a variety of torture
* Erotic lactation
* Lolicon, depicts prepubescent or preadolescent girls.
* Maiesiophilia
* Omorashi (オモラシ / おもらし / お漏らし, Omorashi?) in which individuals struggle with a full bladder before finally wetting themselves(also known as watersports).
* Urolagnia: Urinating.
* Coprophilia: Feces.
* Shotacon, the depiction of young boys having intercourse with other young boys or older men, depicting young boys with older women, known as "straight shota" in western jargon.
* Tentacle rape, the depiction of tentacled creatures and sometimes monsters (fictional imaginative or otherwise, also includes alien-like creatures) engaging in sex or rape with girls and less often men.
* Incest sexual activity with legal family members noticiably seen in "The Sagara Family" a hentai computer game.

All of which have Western equivalents, and this is an incomplete list.

I do avoid scat, incest, and most non-con, as even I still find these things disturbing and unerotic, but there's plenty left to choose from. I don't I find homoeroticism particularly compelling, though I might do the right story, same with femdom, and I have at least one femdom story in the stack.

 

[AllardChardon]

I had to look this one up,

Maiesiophilia: Pregnancy fetishism (also known as maiesiophilia or maieusophoria) is a term used to describe the contexts in which pregnancy is seen by individuals and cultures as an erotic phenomena. It may include the sexual attraction for women who are pregnant or appear pregnant, the attraction to lactation, or an attraction for the stages of pregnancy such as impregnation or giving birth.

Yes, like I said, a babe in the woods, with wolves and red riding hoods...

 

[Tricialen]

I think that shame comes from your conscious. Something deep down inside of you that knows you. You know right from wrong, what's right for you, and you're feeling that sick feeling inside that tells you "this" whatever it is...is wrong.

Humiliation comes mostly from an outside source although you can humiliate yourself. Something public. Something you wanted no one else to know. Feeling less than the rest of humanity. Embarrassment.

Feeling shame in your humiliation.

This is just what I think.

 

[Stella_Omega]

So no genitalia is threatening, then? Makes sense. I thought I was the same way until I surfed the net looking at pussies one night. I was shocked by the diversity of it all. And XssVe's AV topped what I had seen. So, I admit, I am still a babe in the woods for the most part...

Yes, there is an incredible diversity in genitalia. That's been one of the virtues of the internet, educating people to the natural variations that abound, not to mention the wild things people want to do with them!

When I was a teenager, there was the Playboy Playmate ideal. Little demure labia, just as shiny and pink as her pretty face (heavily maquilaged, of course) Clitorises were just about invisible on these women, and the inner lips never, ever, hung below the outers. And no strong pubic bone, either, just like none of these women had strong chins.

Me, I had a pubic bone that bumped into things! my genitals are darker than the rest of my skin, and my clit, although nothing like as long as xssve's av, is very prominent and visible. I had a choice; I could be ashamed of my unfeminine pussy, or I could figure out that Hugh Hefner was full of shit. And I got some up-close looks at other pussies, which made Hef's shit-level pretty clear!

The overreaction of the fearful, that's scary.

I'm compelled to note that in all of this, you have never really attempted to define what you imagine the "essential nature" of woman to be, but merely attacked what you perceive as my mine - a common political trick, the unstated assumption - a whole catalog of propaganda techniques in fact: ad hominem, labelling and demonization (misogyny, infantilization), transfer, half truths and quotes out of context, bandwagon appeals, etc.,

Deja vu - but of course, I'm probably just being paranoid, right?

yes, and childish and disingenuous and ignoring anything I say in agreement with you, and ignoring questions. These are my perceptions of your actions and attitudes right here in this thread. So far I haven't seen anything to the contrary.

In my experience, there is no Essential Nature Of Women, nor is there an Essential Nature Of Men, nor is there an Essential Nature of blacks, orientals, or eskimoes. If I've attacked anything, it's your idea that such exists.

There is so much variation in human nature that anything you want to point to as being more feminine than masculine-- you'll find a significant group of men who exhibit that trait, and a significant group of women who don't.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I had to look this one up,

Maiesiophilia: Pregnancy fetishism (also known as maiesiophilia or maieusophoria) is a term used to describe the contexts in which pregnancy is seen by individuals and cultures as an erotic phenomena. It may include the sexual attraction for women who are pregnant or appear pregnant, the attraction to lactation, or an attraction for the stages of pregnancy such as impregnation or giving birth.

Yes, like I said, a babe in the woods, with wolves and red riding hoods...

If you want something really weird, look up "Mpreg", the fetish that some women have for making their favorite male characters or stars-- pregnant. Complete with morning sickness, midnight munchies, tears. Another one I don't get. I can see it in that social-political way that xssve hates, but sexual anything-- I don't see it!

 

[xssve]

I think that shame comes from your conscious. Something deep down inside of you that knows you. You know right from wrong, what's right for you, and you're feeling that sick feeling inside that tells you "this" whatever it is...is wrong.

Humiliation comes mostly from an outside source although you can humiliate yourself. Something public. Something you wanted no one else to know. Feeling less than the rest of humanity. Embarrassment.

Feeling shame in your humiliation.

This is just what I think.

The question is: what is right and wrong? A lot of that "sick feeling" is the thought of the social consequences - i.e., most times when a man or a woman dehumanizes another, it's in earshot of, or directly to, another person: "She's such a slut", etc.

There are always social consequences to sexual acts and attitudes, and these change with time: discussing bisexuality on another board, I mentioned that back in youth, in the sixties, circle jerks and even masturbation contests to see who could shoot the furthest, highest, etc., were no big deal, often taking place right in the locker room, and it never even occured to anybody that this might be "gay", or if so, they didn't say - nowadays, that would probably be considered dreadfully gay, and masturbation itself has taken on shameful connotations - remember, Two surgeon Generals were forced to resign over it, one in the very midst of the AIDS pandemic.

Similarly, people openly and unabashedly engaged in any number of sexual activities, the thought that it might be, or should be shameful never appeared to occur to them that I recall - i.e., "everybody is doing it".

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I had to look this one up,

Maiesiophilia: Pregnancy fetishism (also known as maiesiophilia or maieusophoria) is a term used to describe the contexts in which pregnancy is seen by individuals and cultures as an erotic phenomena. It may include the sexual attraction for women who are pregnant or appear pregnant, the attraction to lactation, or an attraction for the stages of pregnancy such as impregnation or giving birth.

Yes, like I said, a babe in the woods, with wolves and red riding hoods...

I have that.

I don't think mens cocks are very threatening either! That red color looks needy, to me-- desperate for some attention.
.

Why, yes, now that you mention it, it is.

 

[xssve]

yes, and childish and disingenuous and ignoring anything I say in agreement with you, and ignoring questions. These are my perceptions of your actions and attitudes right here in this thread. So far I haven't seen anything to the contrary.

In my experience, there is no Essential Nature Of Women, nor is there an Essential Nature Of Men, nor is there an Essential Nature of blacks, orientals, or eskimoes. If I've attacked anything, it's your idea that such exists.

There is so much variation in human nature that anything you want to point to as being more feminine than masculine-- you'll find a significant group of men who exhibit that trait, and a significant group of women who don't.

Your agreements are alwasy followed up by more screed, and if I have ignored any questions, they were either rhetorical or I just missed them - by all means, ask any questions you like.

And the "essential nature of women" is a direct quote from you, go back and look.

"That one is fine with me, it's not a comment on the essential nature of women".

As if I required your approval of my avatar, presumptuous, but I did it to make you happy cause that's the kind of guy I am.

Absolutely, "feminine" and "masculine" are abstract catagories and generalizations, but they are employed constantly, and have a long history, and as such remain valid linguistic constructs and are generally understood in context - even if we occasionally have to hash out terms w/regard to usage in a given argument from time to time, use Yin and Yang if you wish.

I quote: "And every morning a woman wakes up and she's still a woman, still getting paid less then men, still physically weaker, still being judged by her looks, and still the butt of mysogynist jokes. A woman's feelings about men, in the big social/political arena, doesn't mean diddly-squat".

I can only assume this is how you feel about yourself as a woman, as a victim, and when I responded that men experience much the same thing which they do, believe me, you mocked me for it - this indicates a great deal of bitterness if you ask me, and it would seem you are holding me responsible for all of it for posting a single symbol of, Vagina dentata.

 

[xssve]

My interest in the whole Vagina dentata thing actually stems from a novel I read many years ago, when I was on an Anne Rice kick, written by a woman, where the female protagonist was a sort of vampire who had teeth in her vagina, which had a life of it's own and would drain any man who penetrated it. A source mostly of consternation as she had to trick her lover into anal intercourse to avoid draining him.

I can't recall how it ended, I've been trying to find it again, it was pretty good, I'd like to read it again, to satisfy my childish misogyny, naturally.

 

[xssve]

incorrect, as we've already discussed. The word means "stupid, vapid, childlike."

Ah, one last thing: this is a feminist definition, what the Bimbo actually represents to men is uncompetitive, unconditional affection, possessive without being smothering, the conservative ideal, a woman who lets them act like men.

Male castration fears probably stem from infancy when they are helpless in the face of maternal authority.

Outside a few conservative males, who shall remain nameless, who feel compelled to infantilize and demean women in revenge, also indicated by their fear and hatred of "weak" liberals, and the "nanny state" - most of us outgrow this, and usually well before puberty.

 

[AllardChardon]

There are so many ways to float your boat and find what you like about sex that it boggles my mind. I discovered after hanging out here that I am really quite naive, even though I thought I was progressive. LOL

When my 18 year old walks by me sitting at this computer and see XssVe's AV staring out at all with her one good eye, it is a little humiliating, in the old sense of the word.

Because of this thread and the root of the word humility, or a thinning of one's ego as it was so eloquently put, this will be the last time I use humiliation to mean debasement. Like awesome, these words are not being used correctly and now that I know the difference, I will adjust.

 

[AllardChardon]

I have always wondered if circumcision had something to do with fear of castration. It is usually done so young, but still must have an effect somewhere. Why would my parents let that man do that to me? kind of thing left over in the psyche.

I have always wondered this because I have three sons, two of which are circumsized and one who is not. Their dad is also. I hated the whole thing, twice, and had regrets. That is why the last one is not. He is happy and healthy and it is not a problem for him at 18 and sexual, but he is 10 and 13 years younger than his older brothers and times were different then. Most boys were. Tough diecision. I would not do it that way, if I had it to do over again.

 

[xssve]

You'll have to wait, I gotta go, ciao.

 

[PMI]

Ah, one last thing: this is a feminist definition, what the Bimbo actually represents to men is uncompetitive, unconditional affection, possessive without being smothering, the conservative ideal, a woman who lets them act like men.

Male castration fears probably stem from infancy when they are helpless in the face of maternal authority.

Outside a few conservative males, who shall remain nameless, who feel compelled to infantilize and demean women in revenge, also indicated by their fear and hatred of "weak" liberals, and the "nanny state" - most of us outgrow this, and usually well before puberty.

I am not a man, but the thing your male definition of bimbo seems to be lacking is the disrespect of the word. I don't recall ever hearing this word as an endearment. There is some insult intended, don't you think?

 

[xssve]

I am not a man, but the thing your male definition of bimbo seems to be lacking is the disrespect of the word. I don't recall ever hearing this word as an endearment. There is some insult intended, don't you think?

In the midst of a discussion of euphemisms for women? It would be surprising indeed if some, if not most, could not be construed as derogatory, but yes I've heard it used affectionately, i.e., healthy contempt - the bimbo is harmless, bambino, a baby.

I "doll" derogatory? i.e., your excellent Runyon piece - to me a doll is a plaything, perhaps it might mean something entirely different to someone who was once a little, a treasured companion perhaps, I dunno.

 

[Stella_Omega]

There are so many ways to float your boat and find what you like about sex that it boggles my mind. I discovered after hanging out here that I am really quite naive, even though I thought I was progressive. LOL

When my 18 year old walks by me sitting at this computer and see XssVe's AV staring out at all with her one good eye, it is a little humiliating, in the old sense of the word.

Because of this thread and the root of the word humility, or a thinning of one's ego as it was so eloquently put, this will be the last time I use humiliation to mean debasement. Like awesome, these words are not being used correctly and now that I know the difference, I will adjust.

But, Allard, debasement IS the correct definition of the word. The "thinning of the ego" the "humility" are sometimes the result of outside humiliation, but humility is not synonymous with humiliation.

I am not a man, but the thing your male definition of bimbo seems to be lacking is the disrespect of the word. I don't recall ever hearing this word as an endearment. There is some insult intended, don't you think?

I've never before heard of it being used in any kindly sense.

 

[PMI]

In the midst of a discussion of euphemisms for women? It would be surprising indeed if some, if not most, could not be construed as derogatory, but yes I've heard it used affectionately, i.e., healthy contempt - the bimbo is harmless, bambino, a baby.

I "doll" derogatory? i.e., your excellent Runyon piece - to me a doll is a plaything, perhaps it might mean something entirely different to someone who was once a little, a treasured companion perhaps, I dunno.

first sentence - harmless, baby - or maybe the bimbo is nothing? I don't find contempt healthy when directed at me.

second sentence - I don't understand it, but maybe it is a reference to part of the thread I have not read?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I am not a man, but the thing your male definition of bimbo seems to be lacking is the disrespect of the word. I don't recall ever hearing this word as an endearment. There is some insult intended, don't you think?

I remember the word being used as a kind of endearment, kind of like you'd call a girl a fox or a babe. (Or are these words anathema too these days?) That was back maybe in the 60's or 70's. My understanding was it was a contraction of the Italian "bambino" or "baby".

 

[PMI]

.....

 

[xssve]

I have always wondered if circumcision had something to do with fear of castration. It is usually done so young, but still must have an effect somewhere. Why would my parents let that man do that to me? kind of thing left over in the psyche.

I have always wondered this because I have three sons, two of which are circumsized and one who is not. Their dad is also. I hated the whole thing, twice, and had regrets. That is why the last one is not. He is happy and healthy and it is not a problem for him at 18 and sexual, but he is 10 and 13 years younger than his older brothers and times were different then. Most boys were. Tough diecision. I would not do it that way, if I had it to do over again.

I seriously doubt there is a single, definitive explanation - if I was forced to try and explain it, I'd have to consider it from several angles: psychological, physiological, social, etc.

We've covered a couple of the psychological possibilities, and there is a complex relationship between the mother and the child, who has a personality as well, and may be either obedient or rebellious, and I'd hesitate to make generalizations other than the one I've already made, that the conservative "mans man", rugged individualist thing appears to mainly camouflage for what appears to be in all other ways, a highly conformist personality type, and they appear have great difficulty in accepting women in positions of authority.

Part of this may be competition, i.e., it makes them look weak in front of other men, part may be physiological - in a group, the dominant males testosterone levels will rise, and the other males testosterone levels will fall - similarly, married men have generally lower testosterone levels than single men, they don't have to compete as hard, and when males do compete over a woman, their testicles actually increase in size, and the incidence of gonadal behaviors increases accordingly. Probably why there are so many fights in bars, usually over women.

So, there's a physiological explanation for you: when a woman challenges a mans "natural" dominance, he reacts negatively to the feeling of his testosterone levels dropping, which drains his aggression, making him feel weak and vulnerable, unless it's his wife or mother perhaps, for which certain social allowances are made, i.e., submission as a sign of respect.

It helps if your self esteem is based on something other than your balls, which strictly speaking, are nothing for which you can really claim personal responsibility.