Serious Issue of Rape

[Monazwx]

Bumping this to say that the "I need to go home" statement should have been a hint for him to get the hell off of her. The male teen was not all that caught up in the moment because as someone brought up, he acknowledged that she made the statement and then purposely proceeded to finish what he started.

Sadly, too may people only equate a rape experience with violence, i.e. screaming, hitting, punching, slapping, etc. While violence is usually the norm. with a rape case, the basic fact is that a woman does not want (or want to continue) a sex act and the man continues regardless of what she expresses.

Maybe she was too polite, sure, I'll give you that much, but if anyone says that they want to go home, esp. during "hot lovemaking", I would assume that the other person involved would want to know why first instead of wanting to get off. From the story posted, it was said that she stated this three times. And he had 90 seconds in which to respond to her wishes and he didn't.

The punishment may be harsh, but I have no doubt that a crime was committed here.

 

[Frimost]

"I need to go home"

That is NOT a "No" an explicit No, and if you want to make this a case of rape or even sexual assault it is her duty to give a clear and concise NO rather than leaving it to the man to try and decipher or interpret while he is otherwise preoccupied in the act of fucking her.

The fact is that many of you here just keep giving her more and more leniency.

It started off with her saying no after she said yes. Controversial and very arguable, I can see merit in the people I have argued with here as I don't even fully support my own stance here or at least the position I am alleged to hold here by others (I only halfway support the boy and I'm more than happy to play Devil's Advocate).

But NOW that she even didn't give a clear No you give her yet MORE slack and STILL say its the boys fault.

The NEXT thing you know you will all be accusing men of rape for not stopping during sex because you THOUGHT we should have stopped as if we should be able to read your mind.

Sorry, we are not clairvoyant.

I would also like to point out that 90 seconds IMO is not very long at all especially when in heated coitus interruptus (what a ironic term considering he request was the ultimate “interruptus”), I have read studies that extreme arousal has the same effect (bad judgment, slowed reactions) as inebriation.

Take into account alcohol AND sex AND young age and how the fuck can people put the onus on him to read into her tepid protest and see it as a sign to immediately stop especially when he was so close to the end? He should not have to be expected to read her mind.

 

[Problem Child]

That is NOT a "No" an explicit No, and if you want to make this a case of rape or even sexual assault it is her duty to give a clear and concise NO rather than leaving it to the man to try and decipher or interpret while he is otherwise preoccupied in the act of fucking her.

In order for her to have her request granted "to go home" it would have been necessary for him TO STOP FUCKING HER. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to comprehend.

The logic of your argument (or should I say illogic) is similar to a small child that can't pull it's pants down and get on the pot alone asking it's mother to go to the bathroom. The mother sits on her ass and says "So go!" and gives the child no help...and then beats the child five minutes later for crapping in it's pants.

I would also like to point out that 90 seconds IMO is not very long at all especially when in heated coitus interruptus (what a ironic term considering he request was the ultimate “interruptus”), I have read studies that extreme arousal has the same effect (bad judgment, slowed reactions) as inebriation.

Again, spoken like an individual with limited or non-existent sexual experience.

 

[Frimost]

PC, I am started to think, seriously now and not saying this to insult you-that you are not a guy at all.

In order for her to have her request granted "to go home" it would have been necessary for him TO STOP FUCKING HER. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to comprehend.

That can mean allot of things, such as:
1. Hurry up and orgasm already.
2. No cuddling afterwards, I need to get home soon.
3. I don't want to sleep over when we are done; I don't want you to sleep over afterwards.
4. Can you drive me home when its over, I need to get home before my parents get back.
ect.

How the hell is he supposed to know which and try and figure it all out while the extremely pleasurable sensations of sex and near orgasm as addled his thinking (along with alcohol) to begin with?

I am beginning to believe that either you are a woman or you are now just totally caving in and trying to cater to what you think is their every whim and kiss-up to them all here in order to be as many pussy points as you can.

You would probably argue that even if she said nothing at all he still raped her because he should have read her mind to stop.

 

[Problem Child]

PC, I am started to think, seriously now and not saying this to insult you-that you are not a guy at all.

As soon as I think you're as clueless as you can be, you get dumber.


That can mean allot of things, such as:
1. Hurry up and orgasm already.
2. No cuddling afterwards, I need to get home soon.
3. I don't want to sleep over when we are done; I don't want you to sleep over afterwards.
4. Can you drive me home when its over, I need to get home before my parents get back.
ect.

*sigh* I think I'm going to give up on you frimost. You're just beyond hope. If the girl said she was raped afterward, don't you think that she said she wanted the guy to stop in such a tone that he would get the message?

If you cram this thread full of anymore "what if's" or hypotheticals it's going to explode. Your excuses for him are not plausible.

How the hell is he supposed to know which and try and figure it all out while the extremely pleasurable sensations of sex and near orgasm as addled his thinking (along with alcohol) to begin with?

You keep excusing rape with the drunk defense. He drank, he got drunk, he raped her. Too fucking bad. Go to jail, do not collect $200. What ever happened to all your "personal responsibility" speeches on this one? .

I am beginning to believe that either you are a woman or you are now just totally caving in and trying to cater to what you think is their every whim and kiss-up to them all here in order to be as many pussy points as you can.

You would probably argue that even if she said nothing at all he still raped her because he should have read her mind to stop.

Now you're just being stupid. Am I a girl, or am I trying to get "pussy points"? Which is it there, Baby Huey?

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

First, we say that rape is bad. Then we say that it can be rape even if it is your husband. Next, we say that your date can rape you. Next, we claim that it is rape even if you don't resist, if you say 'no' first. I agree with all of that. All of that constitutes a situation that is rape. Now, however we are getting more inclusive. Now, rape is rape if the woman didn't want to have sex, but her boyfriend talks her into it, even if she never says no. Now, it is rape if a woman changes her mind half-way though, and sort-of kind-of says no.

Soon, we'll have women claiming rape if, in the following week, the guy still doesn't call back.

 

[celiaKitten]

First, we say that rape is bad. Then we say that it can be rape even if it is your husband. Next, we say that your date can rape you. Next, we claim that it is rape even if you don't resist, if you say 'no' first. I agree with all of that. All of that constitutes a situation that is rape. Now, however we are getting more inclusive. Now, rape is rape if the woman didn't want to have sex, but her boyfriend talks her into it, even if she never says no. Now, it is rape if a woman changes her mind half-way though, and sort-of kind-of says no.

Soon, we'll have women claiming rape if, in the following week, the guy still doesn't call back.

Your reasoning is terribly flawed. It is not rape if the person involved never resists verbally or physically. If they do, it is rape.

This girl resisted. The boy acknowleged, he continued anyhow. That's rape.

This isn't about gender. This is about having control over what happens to your body - male, female, or even other.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

It doesn't say she resisted, it said that she informed him the she wanted to go home. That is too ambiguous to fall under 'no means no'...I agree that no means no, but "I've got an early morning" isn't an assertive 'no', is it? How about, if a women just makes mean faces, does that count as 'no' too?

I'm with the ladies on the control of their bodies, 'no means no' and all of it, I really am. All I have to hear is the word 'no', and I'm gone. But, you actually have to say no! "I'm not sure this is a great idea" is not 'no'. "I need to get home" is either 'no' or 'hurry up', depending on how you take it.

 

[Zaudika]

Your reasoning is terribly flawed. It is not rape if the person involved never resists verbally or physically. If they do, it is rape.

This girl resisted. The boy acknowleged, he continued anyhow. That's rape.

This isn't about gender. This is about having control over what happens to your body - male, female, or even other.

I totally agree with you on all points and aspects that you've been making Celia. You do have a great way of putting things.

I do think that this was a horrible situation where the girl was taken advantage of, and the boy should've stopped. I do kind of share the opinion that because he is a kid, was drunk, and pretty much a freaking idiot. That there is a very minor possibility that he didn't completely understand. For the most part I think the kid was selfish and took what he wanted.

However, after listening to some of Frimost's and Johnny M.'s posts, it did make me think of another statement I wanted to make.

While not in this situation. I think that Johnny is very right in the point he was making that rape is becoming a word that is used to easily in some situations. I think that there are women out there that use it for attention or to flat out to get back at someone. And it has seemed to me that especially in the last several years, there are more and more questioning situations that come up. And then on the same note, there's a ton of rape situations that happen that are never reported. It's a really shitty situation all around. Anyways, kind of pertains to the subject at hand, kind of doesn't, was just another thought.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Hmmmm...a reasoned reading of my posts? That's different!

People are way too eager to be black-and-white abouut rape. The only 'correct' opiniion is that the woman is always right, and the man is always a rapist. Well, sometimes the women was ambiguous, and the man was confused. Sometimes the women is a liar, and she just changed her mind long after the fact. Sometimes the man can't read signals that are barely there.

And what ever happened to intent? And do we really think that this girl was a rape victim? That she was scarred horribly because she was late getting home? Please, teh only scarring was when she got home and her parents grounded her for two...weeks...wait a sec...wanna bet she KNOWS it wasn't rape, but spun it that way to stay out of trouble with her parents?

 

[MissTaken]

PC, I am started to think, seriously now and not saying this to insult you-that you are not a guy at all.



That can mean allot of things, such as:
1. Hurry up and orgasm already.
2. No cuddling afterwards, I need to get home soon.
3. I don't want to sleep over when we are done; I don't want you to sleep over afterwards.
4. Can you drive me home when its over, I need to get home before my parents get back.


So, if you don't know, you ask!

How the hell is he supposed to know which and try and figure it all out while the extremely pleasurable sensations of sex and near orgasm as addled his thinking (along with alcohol) to begin with?

And the guy down the road was feeling extremely pleased after having bowled a 300. That, combined with alcohol meant he didn't pay attention to his driving. Who could expect him to, after all? He was feeling an adrenaline rush combined with alcohol. So, why would he be convicted of negligent homicide for running over a 14 year old girl and killing her? Geesh...no one understands ! *seething with sarcasm*

I am beginning to believe that either you are a woman or you are now just totally caving in and trying to cater to what you think is their every whim and kiss-up to them all here in order to be as many pussy points as you can.

You would probably argue that even if she said nothing at all he still raped her because he should have read her mind to stop.

There are no such thing as "pussy" points. Believe it or not, it just doesn't happen. And PC is just as likely to tell a women she is a fucking asshole if she is a fucking asshole.

This case isn't about "He said, she said." It is about "He should, she should"

They both made mistakes.
He broke the law.
The punishment does seem heavy handed based on the minimal facts, but hopefully, he will not ever find himself in the same position again.

And hopefully, she will never allow herself to be in that position either.

 

[Frimost]

The title of this thread should be The Limbo.
Because each and every time we find out that the girl in question did not do something she was supposed to do, that the law legally required to do in order to meet the requirements of rape most of you all lower the bar to meet her sub-standards.

Saying "yes" and then during sex saying "no"?
Lower the bar.
Saying "I need to go home" instead of "stop it" or "no"?
Lower the bar.
Next it will be saying nothing but posture, body-language, and facial expressions indicated she was not into it and wanted to stop...
Lower the bar
And finally it will be thinking "I wish he would stop..."[/i]
Lower the bar.


I think this whole discussion is biased IMO.
In another place on another website, the whole focus of this entire article could have just as easily been whether this was a sting or not, whether she set him up to be framed for rape. One could have just as easily have made the entire debate’s onus as him being the victim with her as the perpetrator. One could argue whether she could be charged with making false accusations, liable, making false statements to the authorities, destroying a man's reputation, and setting him up for rape.

But no, I am being a sexist for even suggesting the turn around, that there could be another perspective to look at it all.

 

[Frimost]

So, if you don't know, you ask!

Yet again...
Lower The Bar...

Jesus Fucking Christ, do women have any responsibilities these days or is everything up to the man now days? Here and I thought feminism would bring increased responsibilities for the women to be an equal partner with equal roles. To have a more equal sharing of these duties; I guess not… I guess they just wanted to have their cake and eat it too... /shrug

The only person (male or female) in any country, city, time, or culture ultimately responsible for their own welfare and safe being is themselves. If she wanted him to stop she should have simply said stop, is that so fucking hard? Gosh....

 

[Guest]

 

[Problem Child]

Jesus Fucking Christ, do women have any responsibilities these days or is everything up to the man now days? Here and I thought feminism would bring increased responsibilities for the women to be an equal partner with equal roles. To have a more equal sharing of these duties; I guess not… I guess they just wanted to have their cake and eat it too... /shrug

Welcome to the he-man woman-haters club ladies. President Frimost residing.

Leave your equality at the door.

 

[MissTaken]

Frimost,

Methinks you doth protest too much.

Have you been wrongfully accused of rape in the past?

Just wondering.

Now, let's look at the kids' defense. When they tried using the "nature" defense, they admitted it was rape. Right? So, assumabley, there is far more to the case than "He said, she said."

He admits it is rape in his defense.
He said essentially, "It happened but couldnt' be helped."

So, why defend him?
He admits to fucking up.

 

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Did he admit to 'rape', or did he admit that she said she was in a hurry to get home?

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

And why is it that anyone who doesn't go with the knee-jerk "if she says its rape, its rape' attitude gets accused of being a rapist? Is it because no one dares see the big picture in their (certainly honest and heartfelt) quest to protect people from becoming victims?
(edited because my mind is in 3 places at once...)

 

[MissTaken]

Did he admit to 'rape', or did he admit that she said she was in a hurry to get home?

He admits to rape in his defense. He only has to defend the charge against him.

Nothing less.

Otherwise, it would be a denial of the charge.

He doesnt' deny it.

 

[MissTaken]

And why is it that anyone who doesn't go with the knee-jerk "if she says its rape, its rape' attitude gets accused of being a racist? Is it because no one dares see the big picture in their (certainly honest and heartfelt) quest to protect people from becoming victims?

Lots of people have pointed a finger at her.

Adn again, a rape conviction cannot happen based on her words against his. Why? because of all the bullshit accusations that have led to court action and convictions years ago.

In any rape trial, both parties are on trial.
If this were a hard core mugging and rape, she would still be on trial.
Why? because of all the bullshit accusations that have led to court action and convictions years ago.

So, there had to be some tangible evidence that it occured.
Why do I think so?
If not, there would either have been a plea bargain or a non conviction.

And again, he wouldnt' have used the "I did it but didn't mean to" defense.

 

[Guest]

 

[Monazwx]

Being in a hurry to get home isn't "No", but it should have been enough out of the ordinary for him to least wonder what was going on with her. Alcohol was mentioned numberous times and was probably a deciding factor in the boy's decision. Sad that something like this has to happen for teens to realize that there are consequences for their actions, for both parties involved.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

The tangible evidence is that they had sex, which neither denies. The only issue is whether or not what she said maens the same thing as 'no'...and it is certainly a fuzzy area. If you say 'no', I quit, period. If you say, 'I need to get home', and I'm close to orgasm, I'll likely take that to mean you want me to hurry, and continue. If, however, at any moment you use that words 'no', or 'stop', I'm off you in a heartbeat. If you say 'I'm tired', is that the same as saying 'no'? If you say ' I have to get up early tomorrow', is that the same as 'stop'?