see sub, see sub run

[praefect]

There is a sub. Other than some fooling around with a boyfriend or two, and a decade worth of unpublished erotica, she has no experience. So, basically, she has no experience. We like each other. We're very easy going with one another in a public setting, which is miracle, because we're both neurotic. We haven't played yet, though we have attempted to twice now. I would invite her into my home, she would step inside, have something of an anxiety attack and then run for the hills. Not literally. A strong desire to be elsewhere would overcome her, and then leave. Then some hours later, or a day later, she would be terribly sorry, all apologetic, and wanting to try again, and I'm fine with that. No big deal. I don't feel jilted or anything. It's scary, she's a big wuss, I still kinda like her.

Well,...ok. It's because she's from the tribe, and dreidel fever is my second greatest weakness. She's got me good. But this is not the interesting part.

Here are the two things that are on my mind.

1) I know exactly how to fix this, but I don't think I should. It felt very wrong when I saw the option before me. All I would have to do is take control. I don't mean taking control in the sense that I will lock the door and have my way my way with her. I suspect strongly it really wouldn't take any more than me using an authoritative voice and commanding her to do anything, like hanging her coat up. Anything as long as it was assertive, commanding, taking control of the situation. It seems like not much of a push, right? I saw this was what I had to do to make it work, and I couldn't.

I am essentially allowing her to panic by not taking control.

I don't mean I couldn't in a moral or ethical sense. It was more an intuition, or an inhibition. Yes, an inhibition. These are just words I would have to say but to me it seemed way bigger than that. The best way I can put it that slapping her across the face, suddenly and with force, without consent, seemed to me equally wrong as telling her to sit down. Without having taken the first step by handing over control to me, explicitly, in that moment, I was unable to assert control. Do you think I'm going overboard here?

2) The second thing is, does this say anything about her? That she can't submit unless someone pushes her over the edge, and takes away her choice to submit when it counts? That's how it feels, in essence. Is that a bad sign? Has anyone here had any experience with a sub like that? Is that something I should be worried about?

Your thoughts, please.

 

[LittleSparks]

I'm no dom, but it sounds to me like you did the right thing by going with your gut. And I know exactly in which sense you mean "taking control." Keeping in mind that I'm a sub, I think you should sit down with her and talk about why exactly she keeps running away. If she's just afraid, then you can work out a way to start things off really slowly. I had a friend (a dom) who was going through something very similar to this. The way he got things off the ground was by hiding a ribbon in his house, and then having the sub close her eyes and follow his directions to find it. Once she'd found the ribbon, he had her tie it into her hair and wear it out to dinner. This was a really good move on his part since the little game was completely non-threatening, it took away her nerves, and established his authority.

Now I'm not saying that you should go ahead and do something quite like that, but certainly there's a way to get her to be less apprehensive (or not at all) about submitting to you. Perhaps she feels you haven't built the necessary trust yet.

On the other hand, it is possible that her submission fantasies are just meant to be played out in her fantasies, and that she feels the reality of the whole thing isn't how she expected it to be. If this is the case, a Ds relationship is probably off the table. But, again, you'll never know unless you sit down and talk to her about what's going on.

Good luck!

 

[KoPilot]

I see this happening all over the place with normal folk in their non-sexual realtionships. I was practically the D in my college apartment and with my group of friends because they were all people who were, for one reason or another, in a constant state of trying to escape from responsibility. It pissed me right off and I refuse to play that game ever again.

What you have that I didn't is a line of communication with this gal. You have your foot in the door, you're in a place where it's acceptable to voice your worries and frustrations, and you absolutely need to. If she's the kind of person I think she is, then she can do this dance forever so long as you give her a single inch to work with. You need to sit her down and tell her most of everything you said here, but let her know that it's going to be a conversation not between dom and sub, but between two adults, plain and simple.

 

[ConnieChatterly]

Your home is too much your domain. She doesn't feel safe there, and ordering her to feel safe isn't going to work. Your instinct was right about that. Suggest that the two of you have a phone session. You'd start out easy and gradually get more sexual. She might be able to relax enough on the phone to enjoy herself a little. She'd also get some real experience with you being in charge, and that could improve her morale for trying the real thing.

I know what a dreidel is, but . . . dreidel fever? Is that some fet slang I don't know?

 

[CiralFox]

I think this guy means to say that she is Jewish.
Dude, just say that she's Jewish.
Saying that she's "from the tribe" and has "dreidal fever" seems a bit Anti-Semitic. But then again I would find it anti-semitic because I am Jewish....

Anyway,
Yes you should go very slow with her. Make her as comfortable as possible. Ask her why she's so afraid. Do not take charge.

 

[LallyH]

I was wondering what that meant....

It is very scary allowing your submissive side to come out to play for the first time. You don't know how you're actually going to feel when it's for real, not just a fantasy any more and at the same time you're handing control over to another.

Why can't you play at her home, not yours, to begin with? And yes, you are going to have to take it very slowly. Doms can still be gentle in their dominance if it's done right

 

[KatherineAlex]

I'm Jewish and I thought the dreidel fever line was hilarious... made my day. Don't take life or chat boards too seriously.

It sounds like a need for conversation and an easing into it. She may just be into the idea, but unsure what her limits are or will be in the future.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I think I may see this differently than others.

I see your lack of control as being the problem. The first time I met my dominant in person (after about 5 months of phone conversations) he immediately took control. This had an extremely calming effect on me. I was very nervous about what was expected of me and what I was suppose to do.

He immediately started instructing me. "Make your safe call" , "Put your suitcase in the corner", "Kiss me". The "kiss me" was said gently and with a smile.


If you take control and give her orders that are non threatening like where to hang her coat and where to sit then she can get into a submissive mindset without fear. Bring her into the kitchen and instruct her on what glass to use when he tell her to get you a drink whenever she is in your house.

Use a first time at your house not for a high stress scene but as a time of instruction of expectations. You can tell her that she needs to remember these things the next time she comes over. Maybe even give her a notebook and pen for her to write down what you want her to know.

As far as your second question I would say the only thing the behavior of the sub tells me is she needs guidance. If she has no experience then she needs to be able to feel safe with you in control. You need to earn her trust before she can be submissive.

 

[luvnmyboys]

I think you definitely need to have a conversation and find out what is causing her to run away. I'm kindof with the person above and feel her discomfort could be that you aren't being assertive. The other option is that she is scared and unsure of whether she wants this to be a reality. Talk to her and figure out what is causing her concern.

 

[ConnieChatterly]

The poster stressed her lack of experience. Given that, presuming that she backs out from "not knowing what to do" and just wanting him to "be in control" would be rash. This is, after all, consensual sex, not just in the legal but the emotional sense: "I'm here because I think I can enjoy the tension between fear and desire." She's not saying that yet. She should be handled very patiently and gently until she gives him a less ambivalent signal. I assume he's already given her some reason to believe that he really is capable of being in charge, if she wants it. If not, maybe her ambivalence is not about the mode but the man.)

Her writing erotica implies that her fantasies about subbing arouse her. (Why else would anyone bother writing this stuff? For me, it's a dopamine fix my dom encourages.) It also implies that she has a strong verbal imagination and, presumably, skills. (Has he read any of her erotica? What clues are there?) If language is what she responds to, start with a medium in which language is the dominant (no pun intended) or only control technique.

 

[satindesire]

You can't "take control" of her unless she lets herself be taken control of.

She's not submitting because she's not ready, for one reason or another. You need to have a frank talk with her about why she's holding herself back.

Remember, power is an illusion. She's still making choices, regardless of your Domliness. She has to CHOOSE to submit, and for whatever reason she's not.

Talk to her in a non-threatening place, somewhere quiet and public that she'll feel relaxed and safe. Make sure she understands the talk is person to person, not Dom to Sub. Leave D/s at the door and just...talk.

 

[Netzach]

From the Dom's eye view on this...check your behavior first, it's the only one you really can be sure of.

"I am essentially allowing her to panic by not taking control."

Do you think your reticence is your subconscious trying to take care of YOU rather than her? "Allowing someone to panic" is pretty hyper-responsible language, also - I don't think you deserve that much credit or blame.

Basically you know this person kinda but not well? So you have no idea why she gets weirdo the second she gets in your space. Sure, maybe she just needs that mild sense of direction, but you have no idea what the real backstory is - there could be some fucked up thing, or some logical fear of a fucked up thing - and what people SAY they mean and what they actually mean when you ask a question like "so what about being in my space freaks you out" are worlds apart.

Are you skittish because you suspect she may be kind of a nutter under the surface? Like if you actually did get in a scene with this person, do you know what to expect the next day? I don't think I would and I don't think, therefore, that I would want to do the "taking your power away" thing with someone this....closed off from likely herself as much as you.

I'm just curious, please don't take it as a slam on you or her.

The best way to find out if someone's good-crazy or just crazy-crazy is time and hanging out. I'd continue on in hang - wait - see mode for a little while. I would want to know why one of my *friends* had that reaction to being in my space - start with that question and that perspective.

 

[Primalex]

good-crazy or just crazy-crazy

Funny.

I sort them into "'worth-it-crazy" and just..crazy.

 

[praefect]

From the Dom's eye view on this...check your behavior first, it's the only one you really can be sure of.

"I am essentially allowing her to panic by not taking control."

Do you think your reticence is your subconscious trying to take care of YOU rather than her? "Allowing someone to panic" is pretty hyper-responsible language, also - I don't think you deserve that much credit or blame.

Very good call there. Hyper responsibility was definitely something I had to overcome. Not that I would want to redo the last few years, but that was not smooth sailing. Me and the complementary hyper irresponsible "good crazy" sub had a couple of years to learn our lessons, by running our heads against the walls of ways that do not work.

 

[Farawyn]

I'm Jewish and I thought the dreidel fever line was hilarious... made my day. Don't take life or chat boards too seriously.

It sounds like a need for conversation and an easing into it. She may just be into the idea, but unsure what her limits are or will be in the future.

I have a lot of Jewish friends who use "from the tribe" all the time. Funny stuff.

Sounds like she's just not ready yet. I agree with a neutral spot as opposed to your lair.

 

[cookiecat]

This is an amazing thread. The original question was posted almost 3 years ago and the original poster came back yesterday - for the first time - to update.

I'm not sure I've ever seen that happen.

 

[twister947]

This is an amazing thread. The original question was posted almost 3 years ago and the original poster came back yesterday - for the first time - to update.

I'm not sure I've ever seen that happen.

I know. Strange, isn't it?

 

[praefect]

I'd be interested to hear more about what the lessons were that you learned. If you feel able to share.

I think my instinct three years ago was pretty good. We ended up enabling each other in the worst ways until we reached critical mass. The relationship had become increasingly painful. We we're faced with the choice to either call it quits, or change. We went with change.

I had fostered dependence. Each individual step there seemed hot, but if I expected her to become more than a child I needed to stop being a parent, and that became painfully appearant when I needed a partner.

Fast forwarding over several years, we're in a much better place now. Our relationship was more than compatible, codependent dysfunctions. We had a connection we held onto as we got our shit together. She still fears abandonment, but she's aware of it now, which makes a big difference. We know what codependency is now, and that's a fire we've both received burns severe enough at to really learn our lesson. We don't want a repeat of that.

The dynamic is different now, it's a lot mellower than it used to be. What I don't do anymore is assume that it is my job exercise power in a way that regards her personhood, I guess you could say. If she can't bring herself to practice, that's her business. Her responsibility to herself. The boundaries are a lot clearer defined. While the escalation of the power exchange used to be a big turn on I've chosen sustainability over the thrill of escalation,and we're happy with it. I do miss it, continuous escalation, but it's probably a lot like how someone might miss smoking.

 

[cookiecat]

I think my instinct three years ago was pretty good. We ended up enabling each other in the worst ways until we reached critical mass. The relationship had become increasingly painful. We we're faced with the choice to either call it quits, or change. We went with change.

I had fostered dependence. Each individual step there seemed hot, but if I expected her to become more than a child I needed to stop being a parent, and that became painfully appearant when I needed a partner.

Fast forwarding over several years, we're in a much better place now. Our relationship was more than compatible, codependent dysfunctions. We had a connection we held onto as we got our shit together. She still fears abandonment, but she's aware of it now, which makes a big difference. We know what codependency is now, and that's a fire we've both received burns severe enough at to really learn our lesson. We don't want a repeat of that.

The dynamic is different now, it's a lot mellower than it used to be. What I don't do anymore is assume that it is my job exercise power in a way that regards her personhood, I guess you could say. If she can't bring herself to practice, that's her business. Her responsibility to herself. The boundaries are a lot clearer defined. While the escalation of the power exchange used to be a big turn on I've chosen sustainability over the thrill of escalation,and we're happy with it. I do miss it, continuous escalation, but it's probably a lot like how someone might miss smoking.

I think you bring up a lot of really interesting points. This was like a 3 year experiment! Super cool.

A D/s relationship is so full of finding the balance between - as you put it -escalation and sustainability. Especially when we're new to all this and want to try every single thing that crosses our path. We have to find what works and allows us not to burn out.

That dependency, too... that's a big one. It goes back to balance again. Figuring out that identifying as submissive doesn't mean I don't act like a responsible grown up. I like how you say you realized you were fostering that dependence and it wasn't good for either of you.

Glad to hear you still have a connection!

 

[DomPeter]

I was wondering what that meant....

It is very scary allowing your submissive side to come out to play for the first time. You don't know how you're actually going to feel when it's for real, not just a fantasy any more and at the same time you're handing control over to another.

Why can't you play at her home, not yours, to begin with? And yes, you are going to have to take it very slowly. Doms can still be gentle in their dominance if it's done right

Yes, Doms can be gentle in their own way. But most submissive and want those feelings and desires explore and cultivated, until they might find it is really not for them.
But, yes, always be safe and feel comfortable when ceding control to someone else.