SCOTUS rules in favor of Little Sisters of the Poor in ObamaCare contraception case

[FlowersForFun]

Just read what you wrote...you said it about 6 times in here...church trumps state

Not at all. I said no such thing.

Church doesn't trump state because state doesn't have the authority to violate church however the left wants state to violate it.

dunno that much about obamacare but either it says corporations pay health insurance or it doesn't.
if you pay health care pay it all or nuthin and don't jerk people around ffs if you don't pay it, pay them enough to buy their own...or don't and get the govt to pay it

How about we're adults that work out our own deal and all the control freak Karen types can mind their own fucking business because they're not our mommy.

I'd rather the state didn't do that either.....because the state can't pay for anything without taking from others.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Not at all. I said no such thing.

Church doesn't trump state because state doesn't have the authority to violate church however the left wants state to violate it.




How about we're adults that work out our own deal and all the control freak Karen types can mind their own fucking business because they're not our mommy.

I'd rather the state didn't do that either.....because the state can't pay for anything without taking from others.

You do realize that the State only takes from you and me because it fails to take enough from the rich who are busy getting corporate welfare and bailouts, right?

 

[HisArpy]

You do realize that the State only takes from you and me because it fails to take enough from the rich who are busy getting corporate welfare and bailouts, right?

Well, everybody ought to pay their fair share. Right?

So, why are you bitching about you having to pay like the "rich"? And, if that's not enough, no one is stopping you from bugging your Congresscritter about introducing legislation to raise the taxes on the poor and middle class.

Or are the "rich" supposed to pay their share and yours too?

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Well, everybody ought to pay their fair share. Right?

So, why are you bitching about you having to pay like the "rich"? And, if that's not enough, no one is stopping you from bugging your Congresscritter about introducing legislation to raise the taxes on the poor and middle class.

Or are the "rich" supposed to pay their share and yours too?

The rich don't even pay their own fair share. What world are you living in? They use tax attorneys, loopholes, Republicans, etc. to get corporation subsidies at taxpayer's expense, while the working class pays the bulk, truth be told. I don't know what alternate universe you're living in, but in the real world, the rich don't pay jack squat and everyone knows, and thanks to Trump and the GOP Congress, they keep getting their non-existent taxes cut even more.

 

[HisArpy]

The rich don't even pay their own fair share. What world are you living in? They use tax attorneys, loopholes, Republicans, etc. to get corporation subsidies at taxpayer's expense, while the working class pays the bulk, truth be told. I don't know what alternate universe you're living in, but in the real world, the rich don't pay jack squat and everyone knows, and thanks to Trump and the GOP Congress, they keep getting their non-existent taxes cut even more.

And?

If THE LAW allows them to take those deductions to reduce their tax obligations, then what they're left with IS their "fair share". Just like you get a government subsidy to own your house through the mortgage interest deduction, "the rich" get subsidies too.

Don't like it? Change the damned law or figure out to be like them so you pay less tax than your tax law ignorant neighbor.

BTW, for those who don't know, Trump's tax law changed the State property tax exemption so that "the rich" in high tax states don't get to take as much of a deduction.

Apparently upping the tax burden on "the rich" is them STILL not paying their fair share. So what they want is to repeal that part of the tax code to let "the rich" in BLUE STATES pay LESS TAXES.

Yeah, something wrong with the messaging in that. Probably because your tax ignorant neighbor has a sign on his lawn about BLM or something.

 

[Wrong Element]

I'm just fascinated that it's apparently a foregone conclusion that organizations, which are legal constructs on a paper, can have religious beliefs.

But whatevs.

In her dissent in the batshit Hobby Lobby decision that set the stage for this one, Justice Ginsburg snidely pointed out, "Until this litigation, no decision of this Court recognized a for-profit corporation’s qualification for a religious exemption from a generally applicable law, whether under the Free Exercise Clause [of the First Amendment] or RFRA. The absence of such precedent is just what one would expect, for the exercise of religion is characteristic of natural persons, not artificial legal entities."


At some point in the last 10 years, the far right discovered that arguing to the Court "failure to allow my bigotry violates my sincere religious beliefs" is the key to getting all sorts of nuttiness enshrined into law. Expect this to continue as long as the "sincere religious beliefs" are those of mainstream Christianity.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

In her dissent in the batshit Hobby Lobby decision that set the stage for this one, Justice Ginsburg snidely pointed out, "Until this litigation, no decision of this Court recognized a for-profit corporation’s qualification for a religious exemption from a generally applicable law, whether under the Free Exercise Clause [of the First Amendment] or RFRA. The absence of such precedent is just what one would expect, for the exercise of religion is characteristic of natural persons, not artificial legal entities."


At some point in the last 10 years, the far right discovered that arguing to the Court "failure to allow my bigotry violates my sincere religious beliefs" is the key to getting all sorts of nuttiness enshrined into law. Expect this to continue as long as the "sincere religious beliefs" are those of mainstream Christianity.

Just remember that to the Right, corporations are people with the same, even more rights, in fact, than the rest of us. That's the key to creating a corporate oligarchy disguised as a republic, didn't you know?

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

And?

If THE LAW allows them to take those deductions to reduce their tax obligations, then what they're left with IS their "fair share". Just like you get a government subsidy to own your house through the mortgage interest deduction, "the rich" get subsidies too.

Don't like it? Change the damned law or figure out to be like them so you pay less tax than your tax law ignorant neighbor.

BTW, for those who don't know, Trump's tax law changed the State property tax exemption so that "the rich" in high tax states don't get to take as much of a deduction.

Apparently upping the tax burden on "the rich" is them STILL not paying their fair share. So what they want is to repeal that part of the tax code to let "the rich" in BLUE STATES pay LESS TAXES.

Yeah, something wrong with the messaging in that. Probably because your tax ignorant neighbor has a sign on his lawn about BLM or something.

The system needs more than a little tweaking. It needs massive overhaul. A tax code with practically zero deductions and loopholes, with a strict progressive gradation of income tax brackets. And an end to tax-exempt status for churches, of course.

Then, if you slash the excessive war budgets and corporate welfare handouts, we could actually have nice things, as in a strong, social safety net, a proper social democracy, if you will.

 

[HisArpy]

The system needs more than a little tweaking. It needs massive overhaul. A tax code with practically zero deductions and loopholes, with a strict progressive gradation of income tax brackets. And an end to tax-exempt status for churches, of course.

Then, if you slash the excessive war budgets and corporate welfare handouts, we could actually have nice things, as in a strong, social safety net, a proper social democracy, if you will.

Good luck getting middle class America to give up their mortgage interest deduction.

Or business to give up their business expense deductions. What do you think the shipping on your next Amazon Prime order will be if that happens?

And, of course if you start taxing charities and religious orgs, expect them to stop doing charitable work. At which point the government will have to take over. That means even higher taxes.

I never could understand the "graduated tax bracket" idea. If we're all supposed to be treated equally under the law, then we ALL should be paying the same tax percentage. Otherwise the 14th Amendment is bullshit.

 

[FlowersForFun]

Just remember that to the Right, corporations are people with the same, even more rights, in fact, than the rest of us. That's the key to creating a corporate oligarchy disguised as a republic, didn't you know?

Point blank lies.

The system needs more than a little tweaking. It needs massive overhaul. A tax code with practically zero deductions and loopholes, with a strict progressive gradation of income tax brackets. And an end to tax-exempt status for churches, of course.

Then, if you slash the excessive war budgets and corporate welfare handouts, we could actually have nice things, as in a strong, social safety net, a proper social democracy, if you will.

And an anti-civil rights, illiberal and anti-American....just like all "progressives".

Shocking

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Point blank lies.



And an anti-civil rights, illiberal and anti-American....just like all "progressives".

Shocking

Clearly, you don't know me at all. Just as clearly, you're not acquainted with reality.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Good luck getting middle class America to give up their mortgage interest deduction.

Or business to give up their business expense deductions. What do you think the shipping on your next Amazon Prime order will be if that happens?

And, of course if you start taxing charities and religious orgs, expect them to stop doing charitable work. At which point the government will have to take over. That means even higher taxes.

I never could understand the "graduated tax bracket" idea. If we're all supposed to be treated equally under the law, then we ALL should be paying the same tax percentage. Otherwise the 14th Amendment is bullshit.

1. Given the deduction rates and loopholes, the rich often pay less than you or me (assuming that you're not rich).
2. Most major church organizations are businesses more than charities. Don't believe me? Just ask Joel Osteen or Jim Bakker.
3. The rich benefit most from the various subsidies and services offered by the State, far more than the poor or middle class, the latter of which is shrinking into irrelevance as the gap of wealth and poverty continues to rise. Since they benefit more, they should pay at a higher rate.
4. What most of us in the economic populist camp want is what we paid for. We paid for a government. We want our money's worth, not to have it redistributed upwards in favor of the oligarchs, which is what is happening today.

 

[HisArpy]

1. Given the deduction rates and loopholes, the rich often pay less than you or me (assuming that you're not rich).
2. Most major church organizations are businesses more than charities. Don't believe me? Just ask Joel Osteen or Jim Bakker.
3. The rich benefit most from the various subsidies and services offered by the State, far more than the poor or middle class, the latter of which is shrinking into irrelevance as the gap of wealth and poverty continues to rise. Since they benefit more, they should pay at a higher rate.
4. What most of us in the economic populist camp want is what we paid for. We paid for a government. We want our money's worth, not to have it redistributed upwards in favor of the oligarchs, which is what is happening today.

That you believe that tripe merely indicates that you have no real idea how the tax code works.

I have given examples here on the board on how ANYONE can legally reduce their tax burden but instead of thinking about those examples and how anyone can modify their behavior and assets, what you do is default to the tired and debunked bullshit narrative that the rich don't pay taxes.

IOW, reducing your taxes like "the rich" reduce theirs is "too much work". So you don't. Instead you point to them like they're the ones who are failing at finance and economics instead of yourself.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

That you believe that tripe merely indicates that you have no real idea how the tax code works.

I have given examples here on the board on how ANYONE can legally reduce their tax burden but instead of thinking about those examples and how anyone can modify their behavior and assets, what you do is default to the tired and debunked bullshit narrative that the rich don't pay taxes.

IOW, reducing your taxes like "the rich" reduce theirs is "too much work". So you don't. Instead you point to them like they're the ones who are failing at finance and economics instead of yourself.

You still don't get it, do you? If everyone just keeps putting more holes in the tax code than in Swiss cheese, there won't be enough revenue for the necessary social safety net that will be needed to make a less oligarchic, more equitable society. The tax code needs to be simplified, not have more holes punched in it.

Think about how prosperous we were back in the 50s, at a 90 percent top marginal rate. The rich weren't impoverished, but society benefited from much improved services. When the taxes were slashed, the quality of schools and other services went down, even the Post Office is now in trouble because to pinch pennies for something else that the Republican Congress wanted, they forced the Post Office to prepay all pensions.

 

[icanhelp1]

You still don't get it, do you? If everyone just keeps putting more holes in the tax code than in Swiss cheese, there won't be enough revenue for the necessary social safety net that will be needed to make a less oligarchic, more equitable society. The tax code needs to be simplified, not have more holes punched in it.

Think about how prosperous we were back in the 50s, at a 90 percent top marginal rate. The rich weren't impoverished, but society benefited from much improved services. When the taxes were slashed, the quality of schools and other services went down, even the Post Office is now in trouble because to pinch pennies for something else that the Republican Congress wanted, they forced the Post Office to prepay all pensions.

High corporate tax rates caused a competitive imbalance on global markets, led to the migration of manufacturing to other countries in search of cheap labor and low tax rates, oversimplified. In the 50's we were the manufacturing giant of the world.

 

[HisArpy]

High corporate tax rates caused a competitive imbalance on global markets, led to the migration of manufacturing to other countries in search of cheap labor and low tax rates, oversimplified. In the 50's we were the manufacturing giant of the world.

In the early 60's the US was still a segregated society. The gap between the Haves and the Have Nots was huge and the Have Nots had little to no upward mobility.

Even with those 90% tax rates there were NO PROGRAMS for the poor. Welfare didn't exist. Child support didn't exist. Healthcare programs for non SSI recipients didn't exist.

Yet that is what the idiots advocate we return to. In the name of "progress" we're supposed to GO BACK to the days when the poor had nothing, no hope, and no support network.

It's like they're fucking stupid or something...

 

[FlowersForFun]

Clearly, you don't know me at all. Just as clearly, you're not acquainted with reality.

Where was I wrong about you?

You want to tax churches....DIRECT and blatant 1A violation. You're anti-civil rights and that is an illiberal position to have....definitively so.

And I'm not the one posting their personal fantasies about what I think the right thinks about corporations, online.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Where was I wrong about you?

You want to tax churches....DIRECT and blatant 1A violation. You're anti-civil rights and that is an illiberal position to have....definitively so.

And I'm not the one posting their personal fantasies about what I think the right thinks about corporations, online.

So, churches having to fulfill civic obligations violates their religious freedom? How so? In what way does having a religious corporation, which is what they are, pay their fair share of taxes, breach their right to worship? They're really not non-profits, certainly not the mega-churches, so in what bizarro world or universe should they be exempt from taxation?

I'm very fucking far from anti-civil rights. I just want everyone to meet their obligations and duties and responsibilities, too.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

High corporate tax rates caused a competitive imbalance on global markets, led to the migration of manufacturing to other countries in search of cheap labor and low tax rates, oversimplified. In the 50's we were the manufacturing giant of the world.

I would think that our failing schools might be a factor there, buddy.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

In the early 60's the US was still a segregated society. The gap between the Haves and the Have Nots was huge and the Have Nots had little to no upward mobility.

Even with those 90% tax rates there were NO PROGRAMS for the poor. Welfare didn't exist. Child support didn't exist. Healthcare programs for non SSI recipients didn't exist.

Yet that is what the idiots advocate we return to. In the name of "progress" we're supposed to GO BACK to the days when the poor had nothing, no hope, and no support network.

It's like they're fucking stupid or something...

Actually, there were assistance programs, but they grew over time. Certainly in the 60s a number of programs were created by Democratic Presidents and Congresses and paid for by more equitable tax rates on the rich. Paid for by tax rates that still weren't that low until slashed first by Reagan, then by Bush 2, and then by Trump. Meanwhile, school budgets keep getting reduced, school lunches are in danger, and the Post Office has been put in artificial red. All to pay for these corporate handouts and tax cuts. Ugh.

And the gap between rich and poor hasn't been this high in ages.

 

[FlowersForFun]

So, churches having to fulfill civic obligations violates their religious freedom? How so? In what way does having a religious corporation, which is what they are, pay their fair share of taxes, breach their right to worship?

Same reason a poll tax is a violation of the "right" to vote.

Same reason the state can't specifically tax guns n' ammo or abortions out of existence.

Same reason they can't tax you for speaking freely in the public square or fine you for "hate" speech or offensive jokes.

If you have to pay, it's a privilege, not a civil right, not a freedom.

If you're truly liberal and pro-civil rights, go get your taxes elsewhere....like income and consumption. Preferably in a fair and equal (under the law) manner.....and leave the civil rights alone.

They're really not non-profits, certainly not the mega-churches, so in what bizarro world or universe should they be exempt from taxation?

The bizarro universe where freedom of religion is a civil right, or the USA.

IDGAF if it's a 2.000,000 sqft palace of platinum and gold....if the people want to spend their already taxed money on that uber church? That is their right to do so and the state can suck the first amendments giant throbbing cock of freedom.

I'm an atheist btw.....just a very liberal one who supports freedom of religion as a civil right.

I'm very fucking far from anti-civil rights.

But do you support freedom of religion as a civil right?

And if you do how does your position of taxing churches not totally conflict with that??

I just want everyone to meet their obligations and duties and responsibilities, too.

And if you find a church member who didn't pay their taxes go ahead and prosecute them.

But you don't get to tax the church itself and you can't force them to spend money (tax them) into violating their religion.

Congress and O should be fucking ashamed of themselves for having tried that kind of illiberal, jackbooted bullshit.

 

[SevMax2]

Same reason a poll tax is a violation of the "right" to vote.

Same reason the state can't specifically tax guns n' ammo or abortions out of existence.

Same reason they can't tax you for speaking freely in the public square or fine you for "hate" speech or offensive jokes.

If you have to pay, it's a privilege, not a civil right, not a freedom.

If you're truly liberal and pro-civil rights, go get your taxes elsewhere....like income and consumption. Preferably in a fair and equal (under the law) manner.....and leave the civil rights alone.



The bizarro universe where freedom of religion is a civil right, or the USA.

IDGAF if it's a 2.000,000 sqft palace of platinum and gold....if the people want to spend their already taxed money on that uber church? That is their right to do so and the state can suck the first amendments giant throbbing cock of freedom.

I'm an atheist btw.....just a very liberal one who supports freedom of religion as a civil right.



But do you support freedom of religion as a civil right?

And if you do how does your position of taxing churches not totally conflict with that??



And if you find a church member who didn't pay their taxes go ahead and prosecute them.

But you don't get to tax the church itself and you can't force them to spend money (tax them) into violating their religion.

Congress and O should be fucking ashamed of themselves for having tried that kind of illiberal, jackbooted bullshit.

By that logic, paying any business taxes would violate a business's rights. Organizations don't have rights. People do. The freedom of religion extends to people. An organization with deep pockets that is required to pay a tax is not being deprived of the ability to operate just by having to pay a fucking tax.

Jesus, people! You really think that people will lose their religious freedom just by the televangelists having to stop using religion as a tax dodge? If so, maybe I should start a fucking church and call it "the Church of Fucking Orgies." Though I doubt that I would be allowed to keep it operating for long. That privilege largely extends to the major Abrahamic faiths. Mostly.

 

[icanhelp1]

I would think that our failing schools might be a factor there, buddy.

Our schools aren't failing in general but there are many in urban areas that are. Why does de-Blasio fight school choice? because... if he allows school choice there would be a wholesale migration out of his shitholes. There are some very successful charter schools in the burroughs and competitions breeds success.

 

[icanhelp1]

In the early 60's the US was still a segregated society. The gap between the Haves and the Have Nots was huge and the Have Nots had little to no upward mobility.

Even with those 90% tax rates there were NO PROGRAMS for the poor. Welfare didn't exist. Child support didn't exist. Healthcare programs for non SSI recipients didn't exist.

Yet that is what the idiots advocate we return to. In the name of "progress" we're supposed to GO BACK to the days when the poor had nothing, no hope, and no support network.

It's like they're fucking stupid or something...

Most people didn't participate in the stock market either. There is plenty of tax revenue but very little stomach to control spending or consolidating redundant programs. People have more today than ever but it's all on a credit card, sooner or later it will come crashing down.

 

[FlowersForFun]

By that logic, paying any business taxes would violate a business's rights.

Which one?

Where in the Bill of Rights is the government explicitly forbidden from prohibiting the FREE exercise of commerce???

Exactly...

Organizations don't have rights. People do.

Liberal ideology says organizations are made up of people who all share the same rights....therefore the organization has those same rights.

And the state doesn't get to violate or take away peoples rights just because they incorporate or become a club, union, charity or church.

The US Supreme Court has agreed on that time and again and again, this just another case to throw on top of "sorry but you can't tax or effectively regulate people out of their civil rights." rulings.

An organization with deep pockets that is required to pay a tax is not being deprived of the ability to operate just by having to pay a fucking tax.

Jesus, people! You really think that people will lose their religious freedom just by the televangelists having to stop using religion as a tax dodge?

Losing freedom is exactly what being taxed is.

It's not a tax dodge, its a civil right...something you clearly don't understand or support.

If so, maybe I should start a fucking church and call it "the Church of Fucking Orgies." Though I doubt that I would be allowed to keep it operating for long.

As long as you operated on a charity/donation basis I don't see how they could stop you.

As long as you're not harming others in the process and everything was voluntarily based I don't see how they could stop you.

That privilege largely extends to the major Abrahamic faiths. Mostly

What do you base that on??

The thousands of officially recognized religions that have fuck all to do with the Abrahamic faiths?