Romantasy

[Bramblethorn]

I've read or tried reading plenty of LitRPGs. There are a few I truly enjoyed.

I've also found that the most popular ones suck the most. I suspect that the same might be true for romantasy.

But either way, neither of those should sit in fantasy next to serious fantasy books. They are a popular, light read and should be treated (and categorized) as such.

If we're splitting off Popular Light Reading from Serious Fantasy, there'll be a hell of a lot of stuff besides romantasy that needs to get chucked out of the fantasy section.

 

[YmaOHyd]

At least in the first three Kushiel books, romance is a major presence in Carey's work. Phèdre, the protagonist of the first series, is a kind of Chosen One/sacred courtesan/spy who falls in love with her straight-laced bodyguard Joscelyn but also has an ongoing rivals/lovers thing with Melisande, one of the antagonists.

All totally correct. Ultimately, there are three trilogies, one stand-alone retelling of the first novel from the perspective of Joscelin, and one short story. All of them are to some degree or other romances, but there is always a plot that exists beyond romance. The focus of Phedre and Joscelin's story isn't their romance; it's uncovering a multigenerational plot to seize the throne, by force or intrigue, and unravel a divine curse. Their romance develops as a consequence. It serves the broader story rather than the story existing to serve it, and that's often where people bounce off: they go in expecting kinky sex-princess x tsundere man, and what they get is ten layers of Anglo-Frankish and Franco-Germanic politics wrapped up in hundreds of words about how flowers smell.

 

[Bramblethorn]

And third, I think romantasy as a genre label is basically a pejorative one. Novels are romantasies when the plots and worldbuilding aren't strong enough to support being called fantasy. Authors that do hit those heights in plotting and worldbuilding often reject the romantasy label -- Jacqueline Carey, for one, absolutely writes what might be considered romantasy, but when left to her own devices calls them historical fantasies. She wrote in her newsletter that (paraphrasing) romantasy is a label that implies shallowness, so while she allows her work to be described that way in marketing she doesn't like it. I think that's basically true, at least about the current boom.

This has me trying to figure out whether something like T. Kingfisher's "Saint of Steel" series would count as romantasy: author who already had several non-romance books in a fantasy setting also writes fantasy/romance stories within that setting. Each story has some sort of fantasy adventure plot (who is trying to kill the prince, and why are all these headless corpses showing up?) along with a romance happening within that plot (he's a depressed berserker trying to protect this woman, she's a domestic abuse survivor who's had bad experiences with "protectors", together they fight crime and pine at one another). In terms of carrying the story the fantasy aspect does about 60% of the work and romance 40%.

Or something like "This Is How You Lose The Time War", assuming one is willing to admit sufficiently advanced technology as fantasy.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

Or something like "This Is How You Lose The Time War", assuming one is willing to admit sufficiently advanced technology as fantasy.

I agree with Larry Niven that any time travel story is automatically fantasy.

I also think Time War is very, very Romance.

--Annie

 

[forgotmyantidepressants]

T. Kingfisher is good. She's a good place to start if you want to get into the genre (Nettle and Bone was fun). Robin hobb is too, but I'm not sure if she's considered "romantasy" or if she's more "fantasy with romance as a nice side plot".

 

[Nynah]

Or something like "This Is How You Lose The Time War", assuming one is willing to admit sufficiently advanced technology as fantasy.

Time War so does not count as romantasy, it's entirely too sapphic and there's not enough lying and emotional gaslighting between the two leads. It's also firmly within the realm of sci-fi, though that does have me wondering what the equivalent would be called. Science friction?

T. Kingfisher is good. She's a good place to start if you want to get into the genre (Nettle and Bone was fun). Robin hobb is too, but I'm not sure if she's considered "romantasy" or if she's more "fantasy with romance as a nice side plot".

T. Kingfisher is much too good a writer to be considered romantasy. She never sacrifices story quality for meaningless sex between shallow heterosexual couples so she's automatically out.

 

[YmaOHyd]

This has me trying to figure out whether something like T. Kingfisher's "Saint of Steel" series would count as romantasy: author who already had several non-romance books in a fantasy setting also writes fantasy/romance stories within that setting.

She's a standard recommendation on the fantasy romance subreddit, so I'd say she counts.

 

[happyyy_]

My sense is that A Court of Thorns and Roses (which I have not yet read) was a Hunger Games-type smash hit and inspired a lot of authors to pile into the genre and kind of dilute it. This feels like a genre that's wide enough in scope that there's room for more than one story at the top.

I think most romantasy readers agree that ACOTAR is not the greatest romantasy book, but its one of the best to get you into the genre. A lot of readers rediscover reading, and the fantasy/romance genres through it.

I have read a ton of romantasy. I loved Wheel of Time and LOTR. I want something more. There are much better romantasy books being published and getting the splotlight right now. ACOTARs popularity is fading, and people are starting to poke more holes in Maas writing. I hope it opens the doorway for more plot driven and political, but still very sexy fantasy.

I would also love to hear recommendations. I find its hard to sift through whats an ad online versus a legit rec sometimes.

 

[alohadave]

Or something like "This Is How You Lose The Time War", assuming one is willing to admit sufficiently advanced technology as fantasy.

I tell people this is a love story across space and time.

 

[Bramblethorn]

T. Kingfisher is much too good a writer to be considered romantasy. She never sacrifices story quality for meaningless sex between shallow heterosexual couples so she's automatically out.

She's a standard recommendation on the fantasy romance subreddit, so I'd say she counts.

Happy to have this question resolved for me

 

[AwkwardlySet]

This discussion is becoming loaded.

 

[Belegon]

I have written what is by happenings and plot easily identified as fantasy and included hard sex. I honestly feel that to ignore the reality of sex is a mistake and a disservice in most genres. Indeed, ot's one of the reasons I started writing in this genre. Sex is not the only reason people enjoy romance, but it is certainly a strong motivation for many and to pretend otherwise may work for others but certainly does not for me.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I've read some fantasy novels with romance, but not on equal footing with the fantasy. What an interesting idea.

 

[SinclairGroupLLP]

My sense is that A Court of Thorns and Roses (which I have not yet read) was a Hunger Games-type smash hit and inspired a lot of authors to pile into the genre and kind of dilute it. This feels like a genre that's wide enough in scope that there's room for more than one story at the top.

I got half way through Court of Thorns and Roses, skipped ahead and looked up the wiki and spoilered myself so hard I put it down. I didn’t find it that compelling, but most of those books don’t seem to be written for a male audience.

I certainly disliked the MC in CTR and I don’t know if I was supposed to, lol.

 

[YmaOHyd]

I got half way through Court of Thorns and Roses, skipped ahead and looked up the wiki and spoilered myself so hard I put it down. I didn’t find it that compelling, but most of those books don’t seem to be written for a male audience.

They absolutely are not.

 

[PennameWombat]

<snip>
The reason I got into was that someone told me I had to read the Mistborn series and they annoyed me for several reasons. Really fucking cool worldbuilding, but he dragged his feet for 600000 pages and then rushed the last 70. Sanderson needs an editor.
But main reason was that it felt like it was written by a teen monk, it was so chaste it got annoying. And there could have been some good sex in those books.

[Emphasis added in quote.]

Sanderson is a very observant practicing Mormon[1], so yeah. Not so far off having been written by a teen monk. It's not that his Mormonism is incorporated directly in his writings, but it does lead to elements such as you describe.

Also something I remember from before I quit reading Orson Scott Card (another Mormon SF&F author, for the kids out there who don't know.) He once seemed amazed that teenage boys could be motivated by, uh, promises of or even more, delivery of, sex.

He's never included in a list of "authors who shaped science fiction," but Joseph Smith's writings are likely why there seem to be quite a few Mormon SF&F authors. Stephanie Meyer is another, and her books definitely pull from the church's beliefs.

[1] Yeah, I know. They prefer being called "LDS" now. Sorry. I'm old fashioned that way.

 

[YmaOHyd]

Sanderson is also more supportive of the romantasy trend than other authors, even some whose work could be considered in that genre, despite his, uh, chasteness.

 

[forgotmyantidepressants]

Sanderson's writing isn't for me, but his magic system and worldbuilding are pretty cool. There's innocent romance in Mistborn. I don't know about his other novels, though.

 

[SinclairGroupLLP]

Huge Sanderson fan, almost embarrassingly so. But the closest you get to anything even remotely close to a sex scene is wedding night jitters. The stories are good and compelling and not completely trope filled. It's nice to read something that actually feels relatively fresh. And he did a better job writing Wheel of Time than Jordan did at the end, IMO.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Sanderson's writing isn't for me, but his magic system and worldbuilding are pretty cool. There's innocent romance in Mistborn. I don't know about his other novels, though.

Stormlight Archive is head and shoulders above anything else Sanders wrote. It's best to judge him by that series.

And he did a better job writing Wheel of Time than Jordan did at the end, IMO.

Jordan had his problems. He'd get bogged down writing trites for a good part of the book, and then the events would suddenly speed up and the best scenes always happened near the end. The pacing in his books is terrible.

But the storytelling, the world, and the darkness and even kinks you can find in his work are really something. As poorly structured as it was, I still prefer his writing in The Wheel of Time.
Sanderson did a pretty good job continuing, but his style is noticably lighter. It's much better structured and paced but not nearly as dark, and his Padan Fain just sucked.

 

[RocketGrunt]

Robert Jordan suffered from Arthur Conan Doyle Disease. Having discovered that one of his series sold dramatically better than everything else he wrote, he felt compelled to keep writing it and keep shoveling it into the hungry mouths of fans until the end of his days. To keep things going he went full Achilles Chasing the Tortoise, making less and less progress in each book. Winter's Heart is the book where the entire book took place in between the end of the previous book and the postscript epilogue of the previous book. That he literally died with the series still unfinished is the least surprising thing that ever happened.

 

[countdowntolov3]

I've read some fantasy novels with romance, but not on equal footing with the fantasy. What an interesting idea.

The Sharing Knife is my fave for romance and fantasy sharing screentime and making each other better.

 

[old_prof]

The Sharing Knife is my fave for romance and fantasy sharing screentime and making each other better.

I just grabbed the first few chapters of it to see if I'll like it it. Thanks for the rec.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Robert Jordan suffered from Arthur Conan Doyle Disease. Having discovered that one of his series sold dramatically better than everything else he wrote, he felt compelled to keep writing it and keep shoveling it into the hungry mouths of fans until the end of his days. To keep things going he went full Achilles Chasing the Tortoise, making less and less progress in each book. Winter's Heart is the book where the entire book took place in between the end of the previous book and the postscript epilogue of the previous book. That he literally died with the series still unfinished is the least surprising thing that ever happened.

That's an exaggeration. It's true that subsequent books had less and less plot, up until Book 10, The Crossroads of Twilight, which I call the book where nothing happens. But book 11, Knife of Dreams, which was still written by him, is much better.

Also, he knew he was dying, but he still spent much of his last days making notes and reciting the plot to his wife, so someone else could finish his work. That's hardly the attitude of someone who didn't love his work and who was only after the money.

 

[RocketGrunt]

That's an exaggeration. It's true that subsequent books had less and less plot, up until Book 10, The Crossroads of Twilight, which I call the book where nothing happens. But book 11, Knife of Dreams, which was still written by him, is much better.

Sadly not an exaggeration. The end of Path of Daggers has the group heading off on a journey, with the post script saying they got to their destination and there was a battle at the end of it. The entire length of Winter's Heart takes place during the journey described in the previous post script and the promised battle doesn't actually happen.

I'm not really sure how Knife of Dreams could manage to have less happen than the actual negative progress made during Winter's Heart, but I'd already noped out of the series by that point.