Rocket Scientists...

[xssve]

xssve...

~~~

That may be the only absolute and rational statement you have ever made on this forum. Good for you!

You know as well as I do, that Corporations are held culpable just like any individual, so let us not pretend otherwise.

Your hatred of corporate functions, free market mechanics in general, reminds me of those people who pretend to slip and fall and injure themselves in a large business concern for lawsuit purposes and those who pretend to choke in restaurants for a free meal.

I can see no other reason to hold such hatred towards the only ethical and moral system in existence; that of laizzes-faire capitalism. All the others are run from the top down and the little man has no chance to succeed at anything.

Since I doubt you want to be a slave, I suppose you expect to be among those who run things, eh?

A bit selfish?



Amicus

Amicus, I am a corporation.

 

[xssve]

You use the term laizzes-faire capitalism like "license" - it's not a get out of jail free card. regulations are laws for business, just like there are laws for individuals - it would hardly be fair to other business if there weren't regulations. Regulations are critical to maintaining the "level playing field" concept that underlies capitalism as a philosophy and an economic system.

"Corporations" are not a single, monolithic entity - corporations compete with other corporations just like people compete with other people - and, they don't always play fair in doing that.

Laizzes-faire means you don't have to get a charter from the king to do anything as corporations did under feudalism - a board of directors can do whatever it damn well wants, run the business however it wants to - if they break the law, ostensibly, they're held accountable, just like anybody else, but they don't have to ask anybody whether they can do it or not, other than their own in house legal counsel.

You really don't think things through very well, do you ami?

 

[xssve]

In all the time I've spent debating with you, you've never come up with a single real world example - everything is fiction with you.

This is a real world example:

Everyone who knows anything about underground coal mining in Appalachia knows that it is extremely dangerous. However, as mining operation have become ever more mechanized - thus requiring far fewer workers to extract the same amount of coal - mine accidents have become less frequent, much of that improvement due to federal and state mining regulations. Those regulations must be enforced in order to protect the workers in those mines.

The recent mine fatalities at Massey Energy Upper Big Branch mine in West Virginia remind us that the danger is still very much there, especially when the mine company ignores safety violations and dangerous situations. Even though Massey is based in Richmond, it has just two operations in Virginia - that is, until its March 2010 merger with Cumberland Resources, a nearly $1 billion deal that gives Massey another 17 Virginia mines.

Perhaps that explains the $441,463 Virginia politicians, mostly Republican, have gotten from Massey since 1997, including $40,000 donated to Republican Gov. Bob McDonnell's campaign last year.

With the bad record Massey has on safety, I'm sure its top management considers such political contributions its "insurance" against close regulation, sort of "protection money" to keep the cops away. It desperately needs it, considering its lousy safety record.

Mine Disaster Result of Regulation Malpractice? Criminal Negligence?

This board of directors would rather spend 400K buying politicians than using that same money to upgrade their safety procedures. They put a price on every one of those miners heads, and those lives came out a distant second compared to the management's bank accounts.

That's your kind of "freedom" ami - everyone else calls that corruption and criminal negligence.

 

[stephen55]

Getting back to rocket science.....

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/gwa/lowres/gwan630l.jpg

This is what happens when free enterprise tries to find water on the Moon.

 

[Katyusha]

There are approximately two million Federal employees that produce nothing useful or edible or of any value; they merely restrict, control and regulate and are paid by taxation of those working people you listed and many more.

Every government worker at every level of government is a worker totally supported by tax revenue taken, by force, from those you listed, the working people and each government worker lowers the living standard of those who work and produce.

So, government workers don't provide anything that's needed at all. Anywhere. So basically we could fire all of them and everything would be fine, correct? But just an FYI, you might want to remember this: government employees pay all the same taxes that everyone else pays. So their work helps to pay their own salary.

BTW, government workers also buy things. They go out and buy groceries, clothes, shoes, cars, houses, furniture, gadgets, pets, pet stuff, etc. They travel, they go out to eat and see movies. They pay to get into museums, state and county fairs, etc. They go to hospitals, doctors, dentists, vets. In other words, they put money back into the economy, which helps to provide jobs for other people and put food on the tables of other people's families. They help keep all these profiteering corporations in business.

A true parasite makes his money producing nothing, pays no taxes, and doesn't put one cent back into the country's economy.

 

[Smarmy_and_Sappe]

~~~


There are approximately two million Federal employees that produce nothing useful or edible or of any value; they merely restrict, control and regulate and are paid by taxation of those working people you listed and many more.

Every government worker at every level of government is a worker totally supported by tax revenue taken, by force, from those you listed, the working people and each government worker lowers the living standard of those who work and produce.

Amicus Veritas

So tell me, what did you produce in your broadcasting career? Hot air? What positive donation are you making? A load of BS, only problem is, I can't even fertilize my lawn with what you're spewing.

Government workers.

FBI/US Marshals - Don't need 'em
Secret Service - Another useless branch
INS/Border Patrol - A group of loafers
US Army
US Air Force - We can group this bunch of trough hogs in one bundle
US Navy
Coast Guard - Fuck that sinking ship, they shoulda read Ann Ryand
CIA - Shhhhh

 

[amicus]

xssve:

In all the time I've spent debating with you, you've never come up with a single real world example - everything is fiction with you.

~~~

That is pretty much a true statement, xssve, ever really wonder why that is so?

I do, from time to time, do as you just did, search, copy and paste an item that supports my position. But really, that become tedious as one can pick and choose the source and the degree of 'spin', depending on the source.

One can proceed from the bottom up, collecting data from each source until one achieves some sort of general opinion based on the amount of data one person can absorb.

My method is just the opposite, I learned a long, long time ago, that one person can never become an 'expert' in each and every aspect of the 'real' world that you present. Thus you come across as the three blind men describing an elephant from the 'real world' experience they obtained.

I don't even begin by saying, 'mining is dangerous', or even, 'all mining is dangerous, some more than others', rather, I acknowledge that many human endeavors present some form of danger and require that certain precautions are in place.

I also make a continuing effort to understand the nature of all human endeavors that require human participation, which means just about everything from harvesting turnips to exploring space.

Every endeavor requires intense planning one a cost/benefit level, is it worth it to start this business, is there sufficient demand for the product, what is the bottom line of costs to bring this activity into production, how long before production begins to return the capital invested, and a dozen more considerations not to mention the cost of labor, not just wages and salaries, but benefit contributions for Health and Retirement plans, Unemployment benefits as a tax, business licenses, property taxes, income taxes, corporate taxes, capital gains taxes; enough considerations to gag a maggot; which makes one wonder why anyone would jump through all the hoops to even start up a business anymore.

Back to the coal mine in question and the corporation, Massey, that you pointed out.

The hundreds of violations were heavily mentioned in the media and of course, gives you the opportunity to criticize the Corporation as the cause. Stop and think of the hundreds upon hundreds of mine inspections that occured. This should give one pause to considered that the mine inspectors either did not know what they were doing or, that the inspections, violations and fines are merely a profit making venture by the government agence responsible.

Apart from that, your criticism requires that one suspend rational thought to accept your premise, to accept that a mining company, a corporation, would willingly risk an accident, injuries or deaths, cessation of operations, loss of income, public indignation and government fines, plus all the other negative effects.

Why would a Corporation risk such devastating events? The answer is, they would not and did not.

Labor Unions across the spectrum or organized labor, to preserve jobs, have resisted modernization as mechanical devices gradually replaced human labor. With current technology it is possible to conduct mining operations almost completely with robotic equipment, humans are simply not needed in areas of maximum risk.

The entire operation could be conducted from an air conditioned module, above ground and far from danger. The reason it is not done that way is the pressure of Labor Unions to continue to place humans in harm's way to maintain the old fashion human presence in a dangerous environment, just to keep the jobs and the Union dues coming in.

I said earlier that I approach understanding of industry and all human endeavors from a different perspective than you do. I don't have a biased, anti industrial, pro union message to propagate. My only interest begins with the necessity of humans to work, to produce, in this case Coal, for energy sources and the best and most efficient and cost effective manner. Total mechanization of the mines would produce the product at a lower cost, translating to lower cost for utility companies and ultimately to the consumer, you and I, who appreciate a light coming on when we flip a switch.

If yoiu truly want to express your anger at the loss of 29 lives in that mine, blame the Coal Miner's Union and the truly stupid intellectual position of preserving jobs of human, backbreaking labor, over modernization.

Amicus Veritas

 

[Dragonlipz]

Zeb, my forgetful friend, we've already established that you're one of the biggest name-callers in the AH. Must I go back and C&P that post I compiled containing a choice selection of your recent insults?

Oh wait! Here's a better idea! What if we try to act like adults for a change?

Don't ask the Zebster to do more than he's capable of: it's not good for his self esteem......

 

[Dragonlipz]

xssve:

If yoiu truly want to express your anger at the loss of 29 lives in that mine, blame the Coal Miner's Union and the truly stupid intellectual position of preserving jobs of human, backbreaking labor, over modernization.

Amicus Veritas

Once again Komrad, you misplace the truth: Massey Energy - the owner and operator of the mine in question is a NON-UNION operation!
Your stupid lies and misrepresentations are beyond the pale and disgusting in the extreme: You know nothing about anything and yet you continue your racist and uninformed rants.....
Shame on anyone for responding to you and shame on me for even acknowledging your worthless, parasitical, uninformed ass.........
Without honor, knowledge, or integrity how do you justify your existence?

 

[amicus]

So, government workers don't provide anything that's needed at all. Anywhere. So basically we could fire all of them and everything would be fine, correct? But just an FYI, you might want to remember this: government employees pay all the same taxes that everyone else pays. So their work helps to pay their own salary.

BTW, government workers also buy things. They go out and buy groceries, clothes, shoes, cars, houses, furniture, gadgets, pets, pet stuff, etc. They travel, they go out to eat and see movies. They pay to get into museums, state and county fairs, etc. They go to hospitals, doctors, dentists, vets. In other words, they put money back into the economy, which helps to provide jobs for other people and put food on the tables of other people's families. They help keep all these profiteering corporations in business.

A true parasite makes his money producing nothing, pays no taxes, and doesn't put one cent back into the country's economy.

~~~

Hello again, Katysusha, I still get a thrill each time I see your screeen name, dunno why...some words do that to me....

I am repeating myself from some time back, but perhaps it will make sense to you.

Beginning with just a hundren people as an easy number to work with, let us suppose that we delegate a certain number of that 100, to be police officers, judges and we even send a couple off to become soldiers.

Those individuals are authorized by our Constitution in that they protect individual rights, provide a system of adjudication and defend the sovreignty of the Nation.

You put a number on just how many of that 100 are required to do the various jobs.

The remainder of that 100 pay the salaries of those who serve and of course, they do have to eat and have housing, etcetera, but that acts as an inflationary device as there are fewer people producing fewer goods and the price rises.

Now, expand that base of 100 to whatever number you are comfortable with, and, just for your gratification, add to the police, courts and military, whatever services you think government should provide. Keep in mind that every time you remove one from the work force, you place an added burden on those who are left working.

Just how far can you go before those actually producing goods and services are no longer able to support those employed by government?

It is a cute little equation with an inevitable conclusion which, I am sure, you will soon recognize.



Amicus

 

[Zeb_Carter]

~~~

Hello again, Katysusha, I still get a thrill each time I see your screeen name, dunno why...some words do that to me....

I am repeating myself from some time back, but perhaps it will make sense to you.

Beginning with just a hundren people as an easy number to work with, let us suppose that we delegate a certain number of that 100, to be police officers, judges and we even send a couple off to become soldiers.

Those individuals are authorized by our Constitution in that they protect individual rights, provide a system of adjudication and defend the solvreignty of the Nation.

You put a number on just how many of that 100 are required to do the various jobs.

The remainder of that 100 pay the salaries of those who serve and of course, they do have to eat and have housing, etcetera, but that acts as an inflationary device as there are fewer people producing fewer goods and the price rises.

Now, expand that base of 100 to whatever number you are comfortable with, and, just for your gratification, add to the police, courts and military, whatever services you think government should provide. Keep in mind that every time you remove one from the work force, you place an added burden on those who are left working.

Just how far can you go before those actually producing goods and services are no longer able to support those employed by government?

It is a cute little equation with an inevitable conclusion which, I am sure, you will soon recognize.



Amicus

Then through in a 10% unemployment rate. Now how does it look?

 

[xssve]

Once again Komrad, you misplace the truth: Massey Energy - the owner and operator of the mine in question is a NON-UNION operation!
Your stupid lies and misrepresentations are beyond the pale and disgusting in the extreme: You know nothing about anything and yet you continue your racist and uninformed rants.....
Shame on anyone for responding to you and shame on me for even acknowledging your worthless, parasitical, uninformed ass.........
Without honor, knowledge, or integrity how do you justify your existence?

You missed the best part of that particular load of shit: "Why would a Corporation risk such devastating events? The answer is, they would not and did not."

It didn't happen! Easy!

No corporation has ever calculated the monetary cost of dead customers and/or employees against the cost of prevention, and decided somebody else's death is cheaper - nuh-uh, no sir.

 

[amicus]

No corporation has ever calculated the monetary cost of dead customers and/or employees against the cost of prevention, and decided somebody else's death is cheaper - nuh-uh, no sir.

~~~

Name one and then offer evidence.

As I said to someone else, oh, wait, was it you who wrote that your were a Corporation?

Then I say, speak for yourself. If you would calculate the cost of killing people against your bottom line, I believe you would act on it.

Again, speak for yourself, only the criminal element in society would act in such a manner. You fear you would and thus apply your morality to others.

Big mistake.

People are not like you.

Amicus

 

[xssve]

You are so deluded it's just not even funny anymore.

 

[amicus]

Amicus, I am a corporation.

~~~

No delusion and I copied it before you deleted.

Again, speak for yourself, you might act as you describe, but others do not.

Your morality is showing. (old reference to when girls wore, 'slips'.

Amicus

 

[xssve]

Why would I delete it? According to you, it makes me incapable of doing wrong, in the name of profit.

You have declared me categorically infallible; unless as usual with you, you are now arguing the opposite, and hate all corporations.

 

[stephen55]

wait...I have to check with Ayn....

ami, do you consider yourself to be one of the upper few percentile of the intelligent that create the innovations that provide comfort for all.

I consider you to be a moron. You are so full of Randroid shit that you long ago gave up thinking in anything other than Ayn and me vs. the world mentality.

You remind me of a Flat Earth type or a Fundamentalist Protestant who thinks that the Bible is the final word on everything.

Evolution-Shmevolution...Ayn Rand said so. Okay, she didn't (I think) but if she had, you would be a Creationist. I can't carry that forward to you being an advocate of Intelligent Design because you aren't intelligent. You're a moron.

so ami, were you part of her collective...did Nathaniel give you some of his time...?

I don't want to comment on most of your drivel but every now and then, it seems appropriate.

 

[xssve]

Well we do know ami is no rocket scientist.

 

[stephen55]

The World According to ami...(aka: The Randroid Appologist...)

xssve:
Quote:
In all the time I've spent debating with you, you've never come up with a single real world example - everything is fiction with you.
~~~

That is pretty much a true statement, xssve, ever really wonder why that is so?

(ami)
*********************

It's so because Ayn Rand wrote fiction.

ami's fiction is tedious because Rand's fiction was tedious.

ami doesn't recognize anything as true other than what Ayn Rand said was true.

Ayn Rand said that anything outside of the product of human reason (aka Rand's Reason) wasn't worth considering. Fact, as in real fact, outside of what Randroids hold to be fact, is beneath ami's consideration.

That's why real world examples and real facts are anathema to ami.

Ayn rand was so full of herself, she believed her fiction to be fact. Ami agrees.

No, ami, I don't HATE Ayn Rand. I do laugh at her...and you... and all other Intellectual Morons...so taken with ideology you fall for stupid ideas.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

http://heritageamerican.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/ayn-rand.jpg

Dear Amicus,

I wouldn't fuck you even if you had Lexington Steele's dick.

Regards,

Ayn Rand

 

[stephen55]

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/thumb/9/96/AynRand.jpg/200px-AynRand.jpg

ami, I'm older now...and having excommunicated Nathaniel Brandon with whom I fucked twice weekly for 16 years, and have thus driven my husband to drink (and thus erectile dysfunction)... my idea of ethical and moral superiority...why don't you and I get together to discuss...let's see...The Absolute Science of Human Morality..that is, after I excommunicate Nathaniel's wife. Bitchtard thought she had first dibs on Nathaniel...I mean...was I completely invisible to her!!??...didn't she know who I am and for what I stand!!??

ami...don't disappoint me...you won't like me when I get angry...

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Dear Amicus,

I wouldn't fuck you even if you had Lexington Steele's dick.

Regards,

Ayn Rand

ami, I'm older now...and having excommunicated Nathaniel Brandon with whom I fucked twice weekly for 16 years, and have thus driven my husband to drink (and thus erectile dysfunction)... my idea of ethical and moral superiority...why don't you and I get together to discuss...let's see...The Absolute Science of Human Morality..that is, after I excommunicate Nathaniel's wife. Bitchtard thought she had first dibs on Nathaniel...I mean...was I completely invisible to her!!??...didn't she know who I am and for what I stand!!??

ami...don't disappoint me...you won't like me when I get angry...

Gee, you two are the biggest assholes to ever inhabit the forum, but I suppose you don't care much then if I just put you on ignore, would you scumbags?

 

[IrezumiKiss]

Gee, you two are the biggest assholes to ever inhabit the forum, but I suppose you don't care much then if I just put you on ignore, would you scumbags?

Awwww. Poor Zebby. Is diddums angwy because we're making fun of your friend with the thalidomide-stunted brainstem?

See, Ayn Rand would tell you to stop being such a little pussy and to man up by letting Ami-baby fight his own battles, but maybe that's too liberal-objectivist for you to deal with, huh?

 

[DeeZire]

Gee, you two are the biggest assholes to ever inhabit the forum...

Uh oh. More schoolyard taunts from the official AH name-calling monitor who always castigates other AH'ers for name-calling. I'm telling the teacher on you, Zebby.

 

[Dragonlipz]

Gee, you two are the biggest assholes to ever inhabit the forum, but I suppose you don't care much then if I just put you on ignore, would you scumbags?

I think that those two quake in their boots when YOU, Zeb Cunter, put them on ignore.....yore so cute when yore mad!!!!