Rock Operas

[jaF0]

Since we've moved in musical stories, how about the Rock Opera discussion that the GeeBees ignored for their usual rhetoric?

Everyone knows the big three or four. Some know of earlier works like The Pretty Things' S.F. Sorrow.

How many know of the more obscure ones like Nektar's Journey To The Center Of The Eye?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_Centre_of_the_Eye

 

[Hypoxia]

Kit Lambert, one of The Who's eccentric managers-producers (*), was sorry he suggested "rock opera" as the genre for Tommy. It ain't really operatic, even with the pervo plotting. Alas, many following groups tried to be operatic, poor things. But they rarely had enough Wagnerian sopranos. Yes, "rock opera" was doomed to failure.
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(*) Kit Lambert was aristo. His father was a noted composer; his godmother was ballet queen Dame Margot Fonteyn; the neighbor who seduced him was art whore Peggy Guggenheim. The other manager, Chris Stamp, was a nearly-incomprehensible Cockney whose father piloted a Thames tugboat... and whose brother was brilliant actor Terence Stamp. Kit & Chris met in film school, tried to make a film about Mod culture, and instead took over The Who. Then they made Jimi Hendrix a star, and Arthur Brown with the flaming headwear. Lambert OD'd a little later; Stamp runs self-help seminars now.
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Back to rock operas. Or rock masses. Or rock cantatas. They don't really work, hey? The heart of rock-n-roll is ass-shaking, booty-bouncing, god-grinding bodywork. Set CALIGULA or JUSTINE to rock and you've got... something that might sell. Or not.

Okay, we've heard of rock operas. But few jazz operas; more operattas, like PORGY. Maybe a ragtime opera, Scott Joplin's TREMONISHA. But punk operas? Surf operas? Rap operas? Electronica operas? Did I miss those?

 

[ElectricBlue]

Yes, "rock opera" was doomed to failure.

Roger Waters missed that memo, as did the blokes who wrote Hair, JC Superstar, Joseph and his pretty coat, even old Pete with Tommy, Lifehouse, and Quadrophenia.

These things keep on being performed, keep raking in crowds, keep making their writer's money. That's not failure, is it?

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

Gee I loved Tommy (and hated it at the same time).

Mmn. Don't see why it isn't Rock Opera...

It's definitely opera. And it has rock music in it. Nup. Can't see what the problem there is - can anyone explain it to me?

The standard definition of 'opera' as far as I am aware, is a dramatic story in more than one act. With music.

 

[jaF0]

even old Pete with Tommy, Lifehouse, and Quadrophenia.

Hmmm...... missed that one.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Hmmm...... missed that one.

Townshend's great unfinished project. The work in progress turned into The Who's best album, Who's Next.

Google it for history - it's long and involved.

 

[jaF0]

Can I Duck it instead or do I hafta use spyware?


I'm sure the list if far longer than this, but these are what I have, even though some may be in dispute.


SF Sorrow -The Pretty Things
The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway - Genesis
Breakfast In America - Supertramp
Streets, A Rock Opera - Savatage
The obvious ones by the Who, Pink Floyd, et al.
Journey To The Center Of The Eye - Nektar
Operation Mindcrime (parts one and two)- Queensryche
Night Castle - TSO


I'm not sure people would ever agree on a full list due to opinions about criteria.

JC-S for example is more a soundtrack for a Broadway play in my view.

 

[jaF0]

And where do you draw the line between Rock Operas and Concept Albums which in my view include Wakeman's Six Wives and Criminal Record, while King Arthur might fit into either.

 

[jaF0]

And where does this fit?

Chronicles of the Immortals: Netherworld - Vanden Plas

19 tracks across two albums.

 

[Hypoxia]

And where do you draw the line between Rock Operas and Concept Albums which in my view include Wakeman's Six Wives and Criminal Record, while King Arthur might fit into either.

Analysts can draw lines between opera (drama on stage, mostly sung, with orchestra, says the Harvard Brief Dictionary of Music) and operetta, comic opera, Broadway-type musical show, singspeil, etc. We also have Soap Opera, Horse Opera, Space Opera, as entertainment genres -- but calling them 'opera' doesn't make them Opera. IMHO same with Rock Opera, Jazz Opera, Rap Opera, 8-bit Opera. Mutations!

You mention Concept Albums. They're probably as operetta-esque as any stage performance. BTW the Who's TOMMY was written as a stage show, not a studio album. Millions heard and saw TOMMY live before it was filmed. Hey, Arlo Guthrie's ALICE'S RESTAURANT could be called Folk Opera if he sang it with orchestra. Is any drama with music 'opera'? Do we distinguish between drama-with-some-music and music-with-some-drama? Must a piece have been performed on stage before it is Opera?

Bottom line: IMHO an 'opera' ain't an Opera. But I pick nits.

 

[jaF0]

Is any drama with music 'opera'? Do we distinguish between drama-with-some-music and music-with-some-drama? Must a piece have been performed on stage before it is Opera?

Got into that discussion on another board a few years back regarding 'incidental' music in plays when I was asking about Peer Gynt.

 

[ElectricBlue]

BTW the Who's TOMMY was written as a stage show, not a studio album. Millions heard and saw TOMMY live before it was filmed.

Que? I beg to differ.

Album first, extensive live touring second (the middle section of Live at Leeds is the complete run through, with Keith Moon directing traffic), then the Ken Russell film version, The Who orchestral variant, and then the staged musical variant last of all (but Daltrey only ever fronted the band).

But it was written as a studio album first - The Who's fourth album. Townshend was a songwriter first and foremost, then a guitarist, but never a dramatist. That was Moon's job .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_(album)

 

[jaF0]

Album first, extensive live touring second (the middle section of Live at Leeds is the complete run through, with Keith Moon directing traffic),

Almost complete. There are bits missing. Sally Simpson for one.

 

[jaF0]

OK, it may be in that one, but it isn't in the Isle Of Wight version.

https://www.thewho.com/the-who-live-at-leeds/

 

[ElectricBlue]

Almost complete. There are bits missing. Sally Simpson for one.

I mentioned Live at Leeds because it's recognised by Who nuts as the definitive live album. Probably THE best live rock album, period. You can't beat The Who for sheer energy.

 

[Hypoxia]

Got into that discussion on another board a few years back regarding 'incidental' music in plays when I was asking about Peer Gynt.

Any conclusions?
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Mea culpa: Early on I trained on clarinet but never in a band or orchestra context. I've studied music theories. I'm self-taught on various harmonicas and fretted instruments. My family contains music pros. I'm not qualified to dispute many technical points but I certainly possess opinions.

One view: Rather than self-appointed scholars taxonomizing (categorizing) so-called operas, let the private sector decide. Do music sellers file TOMMY or JESUS CHRIST SUPERSTAR under Rock or Opera? Follow the money.

Another view: European 'Opera' over the centuries evolved into overwrought dramas with even serious work based on silly texts. That's why non-musical melodramas were called soap, horse, or space operas. Grab the emotions.

Yet another -- Q: How to separate opera from secular cantata and other musical narrative? A: Staging. Cantatas are more concert than stage play. If so-called 'operas' have no acting, they're really cantatas, hey?

And another: 'Opera' is only a marketing tag. Grab eyeballs, make money.

 

[Bramblethorn]

And where do you draw the line between Rock Operas and Concept Albums which in my view include Wakeman's Six Wives and Criminal Record, while King Arthur might fit into either.

That's a tough question. I'd say that a rock opera is basically a concept album that's intended to be acted, as opposed to just a musical performance.

Roger Glover's The Butterfly Ball and the Grasshopper's Feast is definitely on the list. (Obscure trivia: one of the performers from that went on to play Master Sgt Apone in "Aliens".)

Depending on what you include as "rock", a lot of musicals would count. "Jesus Christ Superstar", for instance.

If you don't require it to be acted out, then there's a lot more.

 

[KeithD]

That's a tough question. I'd say that a rock opera is basically a concept album that's intended to be acted, as opposed to just a musical performance.

Roger Glover's The Butterfly Ball and the Grasshopper's Feast is definitely on the list. (Obscure trivia: one of the performers from that went on to play Master Sgt Apone in "Aliens".)

Depending on what you include as "rock", a lot of musicals would count. "Jesus Christ Superstar", for instance.

If you don't require it to be acted out, then there's a lot more.

A rock opera goes on stage (even if as a film). Does a "concept album"? (I don't know what that is--but I've been on stage in a rock opera)

 

[Bramblethorn]

A rock opera goes on stage (even if as a film). Does a "concept album"? (I don't know what that is--but I've been on stage in a rock opera)

A concept album is an album that's bound together by a common theme of some kind, not just a bunch of songs from the one band/performer. A lot of prog-rock bands have done concept albums based on novels; off the top of my head Dunsany's "The King of Elf-land's Daughter", Poe's "Fall of the House of Usher", and Crowley's "Moonchild" all inspired albums. (edit: not that Iron Maiden would be classified as "prog-rock", but there are influences there!)

I agree that staging is part of what makes a rock opera. The complication is that bands will often get on stage and give a musical performance of a concept album too, often with quite theatrical staging, but I'm not sure that alone makes a "rock opera". Hence my stipulation of "acted".

 

[ElectricBlue]

A rock opera goes on stage (even if as a film). Does a "concept album"? (I don't know what that is--but I've been on stage in a rock opera)

That's actually a pretty concise distinction - a rock opera (twentieth century cultural definition) is something that can be performed on stage, either by the original band, e.g. The Who and Tommy, or turned into a musical (e.g. the Broadway Tommy, JC Superstar, Godspell, Hair, etc); whereas a concept album (e.g. Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick, Genesis' The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon are more aural experiences only. (EDIT: but I agree Bramble's point about theatrical performance (e.g. any Pink Floyd gig).

Concept album is a late 60s and onwards construct of an album comprised of thematically related songs, rather than a collection of individual songs. The Beatle's Sergeant Peppers, Beach Boys' Pet Sounds and The Who's Tommy are all early contenders - The Who were additionally the first band to coin the moniker "rock opera". Later associated with Art Rock bands, e.g. Genesis, Yes, Alan Parsons Project, any number of late 60s early 70s bands - generally best experienced with a headful of grass and headphones...

 

[jaF0]

There is an orchestral version of Aqualung. While both it and the rock versions have been performed live on stage, I'm not sure either have been 'acted out'.

There's a whole genre of orchestral or symphonic rock with elaborate choreographed live performances on stage, but I wouldn't classify many of them as rock operas.

The key factor seems to be the telling of a tale of a central figure set to music and performed in a way that the characters are brought to life by actors in live performances or on film.

Without that central figure and ability to bring the characters to life, you seem to have a concept album.

 

[jaF0]

1940s–50s: Origins
Rick Wakeman, keyboardist from the band Yes, considers the first concept album to be Woody Guthrie's 1940 album Dust Bowl Ballads.[12] The Independent regards it as "perhaps" one of the first concept albums, consisting exclusively of semi-autobiographical songs about the hardships of American migrant labourers during the 1930s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concept_album



But then, let's toss this one out. Alice Cooper's 'Welcome To My Nightmare' just popped up on my playlist. It tells a tale of a central character, set to music and has been performed live on stage with the characters acted out. So is it a Rock Opera or a Concept Album?

 

[ElectricBlue]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concept_album

But then, let's toss this one out. Alice Cooper's 'Welcome To My Nightmare' just popped up on my playlist. It tells a tale of a central character, set to music and has been performed live on stage with the characters acted out. So is it a Rock Opera or a Concept Album?

When it was first released it was not badged with either moniker, so far as I recall. That's my criteria - what was an album popularly known as, on first release. Rick Wakeman, for example, released a number of concept albums, Alice Cooper released albums, the Rolling Stones released albums, The Doors released albums, Led Zep released albums, etc.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

Jeez you guys have been mentioning some GOOD music there - Alice Cooper 'Welcome To My Nightmare' just to pick out one...

Ah yeah. What a damn era. Still some good music around now - but not in the popular/general public space.

 

[jaF0]

"Welcome to My Nightmare is a concept album. Played in sequence, the songs form a journey through the nightmares of a child named Steven. The album inspired the Alice Cooper: The Nightmare TV special, a worldwide concert tour in 1975, and the Welcome to My Nightmare concert film in 1976. The ensuing tour was one of the most over-the-top excursions of that era."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_My_Nightmare