Regardless of your country, illegal immigrants
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Ishmael
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I personally like Ishmael's story...
The more I consider it, the more I'm disinclined to support it.
It is not the idea itself, but the implications behind it. It presents itself as an "indentured servitude" program for the government. An notion that is totally foriegn to the concept of a government "by the people". These are aspiring citizens. I, for one, would not like to think that their only reason entendre' is to perform service for a government that is their servant. I think that it is the wrong motivation, a bad signal. That citizenship can be bought.
Ishmael
p_p_man said:
The more I consider it, the more I'm disinclined to support it.
It is not the idea itself, but the implications behind it. It presents itself as an "indentured servitude" program for the government. An notion that is totally foriegn to the concept of a government "by the people". These are aspiring citizens. I, for one, would not like to think that their only reason entendre' is to perform service for a government that is their servant. I think that it is the wrong motivation, a bad signal. That citizenship can be bought.
Ishmael
p_p_man
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I personally like Ishmael's story...
You see, you've gone and done it despite my words of caution. You've got yourself confused again.
I am talking about illegals. You know the ones you want to send back regardless. If they're illegal, they're illegal, no question.
Suddenly you've converted them into aspiring citizens...
ppman
Ishmael said:
You see, you've gone and done it despite my words of caution. You've got yourself confused again.
I am talking about illegals. You know the ones you want to send back regardless. If they're illegal, they're illegal, no question.
Suddenly you've converted them into aspiring citizens...
ppman
RhumbRunner13
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Re: Keep proving me right!
Jesus Christ!! Even Tokyo Rose and Hanoi Hanna had some socially redeeming values, this cunt is just starting to piss me off!! And I'm one of the easiest going, most level headed folk ever showed up on this board!
RhumbRunner
REDWAVE said:
Jesus Christ!! Even Tokyo Rose and Hanoi Hanna had some socially redeeming values, this cunt is just starting to piss me off!! And I'm one of the easiest going, most level headed folk ever showed up on this board!
RhumbRunner
Ishmael
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I personally like Ishmael's story...
You forget to mention a detail, and I'm confused? Fuck you.
Illegals go. Gone, out of here. Adios. Goodbye. Never to be allowed a chance to return legally.
It is intellectually indefensible to claim to be a nation of law and then to turn around and reward those that break the law. There is no possible reconciliation beyond changing the law.
Ishmael
p_p_man said:
You forget to mention a detail, and I'm confused? Fuck you.
Illegals go. Gone, out of here. Adios. Goodbye. Never to be allowed a chance to return legally.
It is intellectually indefensible to claim to be a nation of law and then to turn around and reward those that break the law. There is no possible reconciliation beyond changing the law.
Ishmael
Ishmael
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Re: Re: Keep proving me right!
He's not a cunt, he's a bitch.
Keep cool Rhumb.
Ishmael
RhumbRunner13 said:
Jesus Christ!! Even Tokyo Rose and Hanoi Hanna had some socially redeeming values, this cunt is just starting to piss me off!! And I'm one of the easiest going, most level headed folk ever showed up on this board!
RhumbRunner
He's not a cunt, he's a bitch.
Keep cool Rhumb.
Ishmael
sch00lteacher
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Is there a reason you guys keep feeding these assholes? Why is this on page one. Same as that Amishpoop shit. Let it go away. Ignore it. You're trying to win a fight with a three year old, it can't be done.
virginleo20
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yeah what ever...
I hope that i dont need to point out that most of the stuff that keeps this country going is done by imigrant workers and such
of whom a good number are illegal imigrants... if memory serves me correctly..
Here is a question... if someone enters a country illegaly to lets say save his/ her life from an opressive group of people should
he/ she be sent back to the country he/ she came from ?
Or how about this a family in the same situation mentioned above... enters a country illegaly and the mother in that family gives birth to a child within a hospital in that country and chooces to mark him/ her as a citisen of that country should the family be sent back to their country because they came over the border illegaly... and what about the newborn whom is a citisen of the country he/she was born in...?
just some of my ramblings.... imigrants are people too mind you that 99% of the US population is madeup of the descendats of
imigrants.... if you havent forgotten allready... should all of those people be sent back to the countries they came from because their ancestors might not have had "the proper paperwork".
By the way he/ she does not mean a hermafrodite.... (joke there...
I hope that i dont need to point out that most of the stuff that keeps this country going is done by imigrant workers and such
of whom a good number are illegal imigrants... if memory serves me correctly..
Here is a question... if someone enters a country illegaly to lets say save his/ her life from an opressive group of people should
he/ she be sent back to the country he/ she came from ?
Or how about this a family in the same situation mentioned above... enters a country illegaly and the mother in that family gives birth to a child within a hospital in that country and chooces to mark him/ her as a citisen of that country should the family be sent back to their country because they came over the border illegaly... and what about the newborn whom is a citisen of the country he/she was born in...?
just some of my ramblings.... imigrants are people too mind you that 99% of the US population is madeup of the descendats of
imigrants.... if you havent forgotten allready... should all of those people be sent back to the countries they came from because their ancestors might not have had "the proper paperwork".
By the way he/ she does not mean a hermafrodite.... (joke there...
virginleo20
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just forgot to mention...
there are quite a large number of imigrants with a far greater level of education than most of the US population but because of the political environment within their own country they cant use that training. knowledge on / in anything they have to migrate elsewhere to live...
Should those individuals be denied access to your freedoms...
By the way the logic of "if you dont like it then leave..."
was also used by hitler and a bunch of other opressors so anyone using it should think of that before they blurt it out...
there are quite a large number of imigrants with a far greater level of education than most of the US population but because of the political environment within their own country they cant use that training. knowledge on / in anything they have to migrate elsewhere to live...
Should those individuals be denied access to your freedoms...
By the way the logic of "if you dont like it then leave..."
was also used by hitler and a bunch of other opressors so anyone using it should think of that before they blurt it out...
Re: Re: Re: I personally like Ishmael's story...
1. This threat started under "regardless your country..."
So please leave it this way.
2. We have the opportunity to discuss seriously
So please stop just fighting.
Some questions:
Who has the right to say whats right or wrong in a country ?
The government ? The people ? Is there any "law" beyond this ?
In democtratic systems its very usual, that governments change every now and then. It's also very usual, that governments change laws every now and then.
It's typical for democratic systems, that the People have the opportunity to change the government every now and then.
Its called democracy, because the people rule the country.
So what you call illegal today can be legal tomorrow and viceversa.
If this is correct:
Emmigrants are those who leave a country. In some countries its illegal to leave.
Immigrants are those who move into a country. In some countries you can't just move in, you need papers. Moving in without these papers makes you an illegal alien.
In some countries you have to become a citizen after moving in legally. In some countries they have a status called resident alien.
As such you are not a citizen of those countries.
What is a country ? Whats a nation ?
Rex
and finally:
Just try to figure out, what our grand-grand children will learn in school some day:
"once upon a time they had countries on earth separated by boarders. Each country had an own law, an own government. Can you imagine that. Isn't that funny?"
1. This threat started under "regardless your country..."
So please leave it this way.
2. We have the opportunity to discuss seriously
So please stop just fighting.
Some questions:
Who has the right to say whats right or wrong in a country ?
The government ? The people ? Is there any "law" beyond this ?
In democtratic systems its very usual, that governments change every now and then. It's also very usual, that governments change laws every now and then.
It's typical for democratic systems, that the People have the opportunity to change the government every now and then.
Its called democracy, because the people rule the country.
So what you call illegal today can be legal tomorrow and viceversa.
If this is correct:
Emmigrants are those who leave a country. In some countries its illegal to leave.
Immigrants are those who move into a country. In some countries you can't just move in, you need papers. Moving in without these papers makes you an illegal alien.
In some countries you have to become a citizen after moving in legally. In some countries they have a status called resident alien.
As such you are not a citizen of those countries.
What is a country ? Whats a nation ?
Rex
and finally:
Just try to figure out, what our grand-grand children will learn in school some day:
"once upon a time they had countries on earth separated by boarders. Each country had an own law, an own government. Can you imagine that. Isn't that funny?"
BustyTheClown
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Ishmael
You're is a right-winger? I just thought you was thick-headed and arrogant. Wait... those two are practically the same thing aren't they? Right. No wonder I can't seem to get along with you, even when I try.
Illegal aliens and immigrants confront us with some problems, I'll grant that. I also grant that I don't have the answers to many of those problems and that poses a problem when I try and debate about it. However, I don't think you are in any position to dismiss practically everything I say. Although I am young and relatively inexperienced, that does not mean that I can't form beliefs and pursue gaining knowledge about them and the circumstances surrounding them. I change my mind, and often, which means I must be doing something right. Ishmael, you do with me what I used to do with my little brother -- I used to think that because he was younger than I am, he was not as intelligent. Age does not indicate intelligence, however, and if you had half as much experience as you seem to think you have, you should know that. I may not be able to debate on the same level as you, but it is a mistake for you to dismiss me as some stupid kid and call me "dear" and all that shit.
You charge me with being self-righteous. Okay, maybe I am. Aren't we all in some way? But you can't ignore your own self-righteousness -- you're the pot calling the kettle black. Again, you say things that don't reflect well on your own powers of reasoning.
Let me get back to the topic at hand:
So now you don't even want to grant illegals the chance to *return* legally to the country? That has to be the stupidest thing you've said so far. I hope this is just you being frustrated at people poking holes in your arguments, because it's one thing to say that illegals should be turned away from the country, and an entirely different thing to say that they should *never* be allowed to return, even if they do acquire the correct papers.
Go cool down and when you can think clearly again then come back and try to hold an intelligent conversation with the rest of us.
You're is a right-winger? I just thought you was thick-headed and arrogant. Wait... those two are practically the same thing aren't they? Right. No wonder I can't seem to get along with you, even when I try.
Illegal aliens and immigrants confront us with some problems, I'll grant that. I also grant that I don't have the answers to many of those problems and that poses a problem when I try and debate about it. However, I don't think you are in any position to dismiss practically everything I say. Although I am young and relatively inexperienced, that does not mean that I can't form beliefs and pursue gaining knowledge about them and the circumstances surrounding them. I change my mind, and often, which means I must be doing something right. Ishmael, you do with me what I used to do with my little brother -- I used to think that because he was younger than I am, he was not as intelligent. Age does not indicate intelligence, however, and if you had half as much experience as you seem to think you have, you should know that. I may not be able to debate on the same level as you, but it is a mistake for you to dismiss me as some stupid kid and call me "dear" and all that shit.
You charge me with being self-righteous. Okay, maybe I am. Aren't we all in some way? But you can't ignore your own self-righteousness -- you're the pot calling the kettle black. Again, you say things that don't reflect well on your own powers of reasoning.
Let me get back to the topic at hand:
Ishmael said:
So now you don't even want to grant illegals the chance to *return* legally to the country? That has to be the stupidest thing you've said so far. I hope this is just you being frustrated at people poking holes in your arguments, because it's one thing to say that illegals should be turned away from the country, and an entirely different thing to say that they should *never* be allowed to return, even if they do acquire the correct papers.
Go cool down and when you can think clearly again then come back and try to hold an intelligent conversation with the rest of us.
BustyTheClown
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I personally like Ishmael's story...
I like the way you think, Rex. It's refreshing to know that people are thinking not only about the immediate repurcussions of our actions, but also the future repurcussions. You seem to be saying that the borders between nations are/should be more blurry than they are, and that the laws regarding illegal immigration/alien residency should be changed. I'm sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, but I'm just putting what I thought might be the answers to the questions you posed in your post.
Rex1960 said:
I like the way you think, Rex.
It's refreshing to know that people are thinking not only about the immediate repurcussions of our actions, but also the future repurcussions. You seem to be saying that the borders between nations are/should be more blurry than they are, and that the laws regarding illegal immigration/alien residency should be changed. I'm sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, but I'm just putting what I thought might be the answers to the questions you posed in your post.
Ishmael
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Re: Ishmael
That has been my position from the first post. It is a rational position. If you are to have an immigration policy, that policy must have penalties for the violation of same. Patting them on the butt and sending them back just doesn't seem to be working at all. The idea is to encourage legal behavior, not illegal behavior. I do not find it contradictory at all to bar from this country someone who's very first act upon entering this country was an illegal act. By putting some teeth into the law, we at least attempt to encourage potential immigrants to take the legal path.
If, on the other hand, you choose not to have any penalties, then why bother having a policy at all?
The law would not deprive anyone of their freedom, as in incarceration, it would just send them back from whence they came, never to return.
Ishmael
BustyTheClown said:
That has been my position from the first post. It is a rational position. If you are to have an immigration policy, that policy must have penalties for the violation of same. Patting them on the butt and sending them back just doesn't seem to be working at all. The idea is to encourage legal behavior, not illegal behavior. I do not find it contradictory at all to bar from this country someone who's very first act upon entering this country was an illegal act. By putting some teeth into the law, we at least attempt to encourage potential immigrants to take the legal path.
If, on the other hand, you choose not to have any penalties, then why bother having a policy at all?
The law would not deprive anyone of their freedom, as in incarceration, it would just send them back from whence they came, never to return.
Ishmael
Ishmael
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I personally like Ishmael's story...
That fine day may come to pass Rex. But I suspect that it will take more time than you think.
Countries are a great deal more than geographic borders. They are cultures and languages too. They have histories and 'pride' of heritage. And they have laws and legal systems. These are all desireable traits. Part of the diversity that is so often touted on the boards.
I'm watching the EU with interest. I even applaud the experiment to an extent. But there are so many things yet to be resolved and it will be interesting to see how they are handled. And then there's the Balkan's. The cooperation of nation/states is an agreement between parties. All it takes is one disagreement to unravel the whole fabric.
As that applies to this thread, p_p_man has already pointed out that even the borders of the EU nations aren't really that soft.
Ishmael
Rex1960 said:
That fine day may come to pass Rex. But I suspect that it will take more time than you think.
Countries are a great deal more than geographic borders. They are cultures and languages too. They have histories and 'pride' of heritage. And they have laws and legal systems. These are all desireable traits. Part of the diversity that is so often touted on the boards.
I'm watching the EU with interest. I even applaud the experiment to an extent. But there are so many things yet to be resolved and it will be interesting to see how they are handled. And then there's the Balkan's. The cooperation of nation/states is an agreement between parties. All it takes is one disagreement to unravel the whole fabric.
As that applies to this thread, p_p_man has already pointed out that even the borders of the EU nations aren't really that soft.
Ishmael
BustyTheClown
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Re: Re: Ishmael
I don't think anyone's said no penalties are necessary, I just don't think we'd arrived at that facet of the argument yet. Perhaps the penalty should be that they couldn't legally return within a given amount of time, rather than never. That's like throwing a kid in jail for life because he shoplifted from a store. "Hey, illegal is illegal. You lose!"
Ishmael said:
I don't think anyone's said no penalties are necessary, I just don't think we'd arrived at that facet of the argument yet. Perhaps the penalty should be that they couldn't legally return within a given amount of time, rather than never. That's like throwing a kid in jail for life because he shoplifted from a store. "Hey, illegal is illegal. You lose!"
bored1
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Lets see, Are there a lot pf people immigrating to Saudi Arabia? How about Iraq or Iran. Gee, I dont think so. Now why is that?Seems to me most people want to come to the US. Why is that? I know why, you get to come here illegally and if you wait long enough the politicians will grant you amnesty in the hopes you will vote for them next election. Change the laws, let anyone who wants to come here do so. Then provide them all with a house in the suburbs ,free medical care, a new car of their choice and free education for their children. But why stop there? Then after we have given them the American dream we should continue to pay them, say,3000.00 a month so they can purchase the necessities. In the past 3 years govt spending has increased 22% And what do we get? A measley 300.00 tax rebate Keep taxing the middle group of people, and soon they will not exist. Keep letting illegals in without controls and hasten the decline.
In the past 3 years govt spending has increased 22% And what do we get? A measley 300.00 tax rebate Keep taxing the middle group of people, and soon they will not exist. Keep letting illegals in without controls and hasten the decline.BustyTheClown
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bored1 said:Lets see, Are there a lot pf people immigrating to Saudi Arabia? How about Iraq or Iran. Gee, I dont think so. Now why is that?Seems to me most people want to come to the US. Why is that? I know why, you get to come here illegally and if you wait long enough the politicians will grant you amnesty in the hopes you will vote for them next election. Change the laws, let anyone who wants to come here do so. Then provide them all with a house in the suburbs ,free medical care, a new car of their choice and free education for their children. But why stop there? Then after we have given them the American dream we should continue to pay them, say,3000.00 a month so they can purchase the necessities.
Very valid points, bored. I don't have the answers for you, but I'm sure there are solutions to those problems if we can just get past the idea of "Stop freeloading!" and instead ask "How can we deal with illegal immigration in a way that benefits both the immigrants *and* society?" We just need to think harder.
Ishmael
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Re: Re: Re: Ishmael
You're example is overwought and not in the least equivalent. You have implied that the rest of the world is a jail and that only in the US can anyone be free. I would think that there are many from foriegn countries that would disagree strongly with that presumption. What is wrong with that picture?
We have not deprived anyone of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. We have only determined that they can't do it here.
The solution to the world's problems is not to take everyone into the US. It is for the other countries, or rather the citizens thereof, to determine that they too should be free and to change their country for the better.
Freedom cannot be exported. It has generally failed every time it's been attempted. The countries that have joined the free world have done so from internal desires, not external mandates. By providing an 'open door' sanctuary for these freedom loving people, you are actually depleting the population of the home country of the very people that might bring about the change that you so desire.
Ishmael
BustyTheClown said:
You're example is overwought and not in the least equivalent. You have implied that the rest of the world is a jail and that only in the US can anyone be free. I would think that there are many from foriegn countries that would disagree strongly with that presumption. What is wrong with that picture?
We have not deprived anyone of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. We have only determined that they can't do it here.
The solution to the world's problems is not to take everyone into the US. It is for the other countries, or rather the citizens thereof, to determine that they too should be free and to change their country for the better.
Freedom cannot be exported. It has generally failed every time it's been attempted. The countries that have joined the free world have done so from internal desires, not external mandates. By providing an 'open door' sanctuary for these freedom loving people, you are actually depleting the population of the home country of the very people that might bring about the change that you so desire.
Ishmael
bored1
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Busty, All that needs to be done is to enforce the immigration laws that are on the books. No politician wants to do that for fear of being labled a racist. Sad but true. In the 80s 3 million illegals were given amnesty by the Reagan adminitistration, As I recall we were told this was to be a one time dealBustyTheClown said:
. Now almost 20 years later the same problem exists, actually its worse, as now there are upwards 11 million illegals floating around the country. Open borders are not good, A country that does not enforce its laws is destined to fail. 
