Really, really old history, anyone?

[Natural Born Eros]

Having just read the thread from sabledrake's (fantastic) story, and the story itself, I was contemplating a move into writing historical erotica. As some of you may know, I'm a student of Ancient, mostly Greek, history. I think I could make a decent job of the story, but I don't know whether there is a market for it. Perhaps some of you could answer some of these questions:

Does a fixed historical period add anything to erotica?

Should the focus be on accuracy or "poetic license?"

What forms of history would be particularly important (eg historical food, mythological/religious imagery, etc)?

Are there any major turn-ons in the ancient world (harems, gladiators, slaves, etc) that are not realistic in the modern world?

Basically, I don't want to waste your valuable time or mine, but there could well be a story here. I seek your guidance.

Cheers,

Eros (appropriately)

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Maybe it's just me, but whenever I see historical fiction I immediately aske myself:

(1) Did these people ever wash?
(2) Did the woman shave their legs?
(3) What do we know of their ideal of beauty?

I just can't read a medieval story without thinking about the hero's rotten teeth and open sores from not bathing and the woman stinking to heaven, white as a corpse, and her pubic hair crawling with lice. But that's just me. I don't think many people here care much about historical accuracy at all.

I thnk the main appeal of historical fiction is that it gives a gloss of the exotic to a story. While some authors do seek to get some historical details right, I think most klow no more about the periods they set their stories in than what they've seen in movies and on TV. Many just use the general reader's ignorance of the period as license to make up a world of their own, so you get a lot of stuff that would just be better off set in some fantasy world where history doesn't matter at all.

To really recreate a believable ancient ambience is very difficult. Usually what you get is Britney Spears in a toga, or some 21st century dude in plate armor who's out to defend the rights of women.

I would seriously ask myself what's to be gained by setting your story in ancient Greece? Will you be able to pull it off without having to explain the Hellenic world to the reader?

Besides, from what I understand, weren't the Greeks were more likely to invite young boys to their symposia than young girls?

---dr.M.

I

 

[Madame Manga]

I'm fond of historicals, but then I was a history major for a while. Yes, part of it is exotic gloss, but I think the main reason for a *good* historical is a setting in which such things as moral values and personal virtue are better defined and more explicable than in the modern world. Not to mention, sex in a pre-twentieth century setting can be much naughtier and more mysterious to the characters, therefore sexier for the reader.

What really holds my attention and stays in my memory when I read erotica? Not a straightforward, blunt sexual encounter (even if it's a fun story) but one with atmosphere and suggestion and build-up and a sense of discovery, with certain details left tantalizingly unsaid. Certainly that can be done in a modern setting, but it comes naturally to a historical.

I'm not arguing for a return to the cult of female virginity and sexual ignorance, mind you. ;-) But I adore the erotic potential anyway. When everyone walks around in outfits that leave almost nothing to the imagination and sex is used to sell cars and fertilizer, the whole business becomes commonplace and commercial. When bodies are concealed and the mere glimpse of an ankle is shocking, the idea of the sexual act itself can be almost unimaginably intense.

MM

 

[Whispersecret]

Maybe it's just me, but whenever I see historical fiction I immediately aske myself:

(1) Did these people ever wash?
(2) Did the woman shave their legs?
(3) What do we know of their ideal of beauty?

I just can't read a medieval story without thinking about the hero's rotten teeth and open sores from not bathing and the woman stinking to heaven, white as a corpse, and her pubic hair crawling with lice. But that's just me. I don't think many people here care much about historical accuracy at all.

Well, that's not me. I love a good historical. (Come on, Doc, thre are plenty of disgusting things about our time too.) From what I understand from a woman who has studied medieval times for many years, the people weren't as dirty as most would assume.

On to the questions:

I think a fixed historical period can add to erotica whatever it can add to general fiction.

You should probably be as accurate as you can be, but as in all things with the art of writing, there is a balance. Be too accurate and you risk boring us with minutiae. Go too far the other way, and you'll look foolish.

What forms of history would be important? Whatever applies to your story. A little sprinkling of detail can really bring an historical period to life.

I'm not sure I understand the last question.

 

[the_bragis]

hello

Hello Eros,

Maybe it's just me, but whenever I see historical fiction I never ask myself:

(1) Did these people ever wash?
(2) Did the woman shave their legs?
(3) What do we know of their ideal of beauty?

I'm a bit of a dreamer I guess.

As you can see by the name 'Bragi', my main interest is in Nordic mythology.

Personally I can't get enough of these kinds of stories - Greek, Roman, Nordic, anything really. To me there often seems to be a fine line between mythology and history. (Please no arguments on that one, I will agree to disagree in advance.) I enjoy them all.

Poetic license is fine with me. Although several stories I have read did include facts I wasn't aware of previously, and that certainly did make them more interesting and intriguing.

Major turn-ons for me, are - powerful men, beautiful women, raunchy sex, and a certain "rawness". Oh sure, I know people in here are always saying they want realisms, but me, I simply want escapism. I have enough 'realism' in my day to day life to last me a lifetime, I really do.

Major turn-offs, I didn't have to think about this one - blood and guts.

I've read Stabledrake's work, and just about anything else like it I can find on Lit. I think Stabledrake has been reincarnated from another century, he's damned good.

Please, would you mind messaging me when you story is finished and posted?

I wish you well with your future writing.
Have a great day,

Alex (fem).

 

[karmadog]

I like historical fiction. I wrote a story set in WWI, and I'm working on some things set in the twenties, one for here and the rest not.

It doesn't seem like a good idea to inundate the reader with historical fact, but anachronisms and falsehoods annoy the hell out of me.

As to whether they had rotten teeth, well if everybodies dental hygiene was bad, they probably didn't notice the breath of their partner's so much. In any case, sexual attraction is a relative thing and in a well-written story the idea of the thing is always more important than the mechanics of it.

I say bring it on and I'll look forward to reading your story.

 

[Natural Born Eros]

Thank you all for your feedback. I will write the story. Now to the historical points (and I will be quick, I do enough of this in essays).

Yes, symposia were commonly attended by boys. The relationship between an older man and an adolescent (on the "cusp of manhood," according to Aristophanes) was judged socially valuable, as well as sexually pleasing. However, the physical relationship was usually intercrural (between the thighs) rather than anal, and there was a taboo on extensive foreplay. For most men, however, the vast majority of sexual experience would be heterosexual.

As to stinking bodies, rotten teeth, hairy legs - I live in Scotland and my teeth were looked after by English dentists for 16 years. That is the modern world for me! Jests aside, though, it does seem that the disregard for personal hygine is an anglo-saxon and saxon ideal. Something to do with the climate, thick clothing and British men, I expect. Ovid describes his ideal woman as, amongst other things, smooth and sweet-smelling, and don't we all! There are similar ideals in the Greek world.

This is WAY too much history. I'll stop boring you, but if you want to read more about this, in a very funny context, Ovid's "The Art of Love" is a hysterical but historically valuable document that any good library will stock. For the Greeks, Plato's "Symposium" is useful, although tedious, and some modern stuff is quite accessible. "Courtesans and Fishcakes" by James Davidson (Fontana, 1998) deals with the homosexual relations with just enough obsession on the actual sex-life of Greeks to interest most lit readers!

Consider this mini-essay a thank you for all the nice postings. I'll let you know when I have that story up.

Cheers, Eros

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Well, I was a little tongue in cheek. My main beef with historical fiction are those stories where the author takes a thoroughly modern hero and heroine and just dresses them up in armor and gowns and sprinkles their speech ithe "thees" and "thines" and thinks it's historical. I'm sure Eros' piece would be more than that.

I recently came across a piece taking place in America in the mid nineteenth century. For my money, never were human beings less attractive than they were in mid-nineteenth century America. I couldn't read it.

In the best historical fiction we're put back in the world of another people, and nothing is as exhilerating. I still rmemeber Mary Renault's Bull from the Sea[I/] (and I've got to mention the amazing Patrick O'brian.) Another nice thing is that you can bring the mythology to life as well, since it was part of the ancient world: why not?

I've always wanted to do something with Dionysus and his followers (Meaenids?) That story is pure sex.

---dr.M.

 

[Sabledrake]

NBE -- thanks for the kind words!

And some excellent points about historical hygeine issues. Not every era was unwashed and gross (the well-to-do Romans spring to mind), but much of Middle Ages Europe, yeah, would've been kind of icky. Their standards of beauty and cleanliness would have been quite different, so it wouldn't have mattered to them, but it matters to us looking back from our viewpoint.

Michael Creighton begs to differ in "Timeline," though. His fourteenth-century French people are regular bathers and washers-of-clothes.

I remember some line in Dumas' "The Three Musketeers," describing the gorgeous Lady deWinter, and how she was only missing six teeth, or something like that.

I recommend catching the shows like 1900's House, Pioneer House, and The Ship, in which modern ordinary folks spend a grueling time living in the past.

And not just for a weekend, either, like my dad the Confederate General does (but boy howdy, was he ever offended when I told him about an SCA event I went to in which the really high-ranking nobles erected these huge pavillions, and hid their motor homes inside).

I've had a lifelong fascination with Greek myth myself. Lots of potential for great stories there! But look out for those maenads ... it may have been mostly wine and sex, but it was also occasionally bloodthirsty violent rampages!

The Egyptians apparently had fairly decent dental care. Though, since they also used crocodile dung for birth control, I'm not entirely sure how "fairly decent" that is.

Bragis -- thanks! But for the record, Sabledrake's a she And from this day & age, too; I just read piles of Victorian smut, watch all the "Sex in History" on the History Channel that I can, and collect many reference books. I've always wanted to get more into Norse myth. Could you point me toward some of the better sources?

Sabledrake

 

[ronde]

...
Does a fixed historical period add anything to erotica?

Should the focus be on accuracy or "poetic license?"

What forms of history would be particularly important (eg historical food, mythological/religious imagery, etc)?

Are there any major turn-ons in the ancient world (harems, gladiators, slaves, etc) that are not realistic in the modern world?

.....

Many readers love historical settings for any fiction, erotica included. They let one fantasize about a time and place that one can never experience any other way.

By all means, be accurate. If you write a story set in a prominent time in history, there are sure to be readers whose knowledge of the time is considerable. Lack of accuracy will tell them you invented the details out of ignorance and a lack of even basic research.

That said, especially in a short story, it is not usually good practice to "explain" the historical reasons for the scene and what the characters do. Put in details that are relevant to the storyline, but let them occur naturally instead of being blatant references to the time period and civilization. Readers who enjoy historical fiction will know what you mean, and other readers will probably accept what you write as true.

As far as turn-ons from the ancient world, I think almost anything would find an audience.

 

[Sabledrake]

Does a fixed historical period add anything to erotica?

Should the focus be on accuracy or "poetic license?"

What forms of history would be particularly important (eg historical food, mythological/religious imagery, etc)?

Are there any major turn-ons in the ancient world (harems, gladiators, slaves, etc) that are not realistic in the modern world?

And to actually toss in my handful of change on the questions:

1. I think that yes, historical eras add something. Our society now in general accepts so much, sex is everywhere, fewer things are not spoken of, so there's an element of greater naughtiness/forbiddenness/taboo in many settings done in the past.

2. Historical license. If romance novels were "accurate," they would not be the top-selling segment of all paperbacks.

3. I like history that looks more at the social scene. So much of what we know about history comes from what went on in this war or that war. I'd rather read about what was going on at home, or when the soldiers weren't fighting.

4. Temple prostitutes! Ritual deflowering! King and high priestess doin' it atop the temple to start an orgy in the streets! (supposedly because this would then synchronize births, letting the babies be born when there wasn't so much work to do).

Sabledrake

 

[Natural Born Eros]

Temple prostitutes! Ritual deflowering! King and high priestess doin' it atop the temple to start an orgy in the streets! (supposedly because this would then synchronize births, letting the babies be born when there wasn't so much work to do).



Of all the turn ons in all the world, I would never have come up with that one...