Pushing hard limits

[MotorCitySam]

This is a very interesting topic, but i wonder if anyone could take it from the other side and address the issue of the dominant having limits of things they do not want to do that the submissive desires. Thanks.

 

[cymbidia]

Re: To me

Good example. To me a hard limit is a boundary never to be crossed. I like the BDSM checklist because it has a scale of 5.
3 is the neutral.
0 is hell no or the hard limit/boundary.
1 is the I do not want to do it, but I can be "forced" to please my Mistress.

I call 4 & 5 the "do it to me one more time, I can never get enough with a Domme like you" numbers!

Perfect.
This is exactly what i was trying to say but with 20,000 more words.

This is a very interesting topic, but i wonder if anyone could take it from the other side and address the issue of the dominant having limits of things they do not want to do that the submissive desires. Thanks.

Good question, Sam, and one that i have personal experience with.

We all have limits, dominant, switch, or submissive. We all have places we really don't want to go and places we will [n]not[/b] go. Within the embrace of a BDSM relationship, it's almost always the submissive who is running the play, the submissive who determines where the partners go and don't go - unless, of course, the submissive is far more experienced than her partner. (The sub could be a man, of course, i'm just speaking from my perspective, hence the "her" in my words.)

As someone who has more and more often found herself as the more experienced partner, sometimes way more experienced, i am becoming more used to dealing with the kinds of waffling and ill-defined limits that all new-to-BDSM people have.

If, for example, i liked fisting (i do), made it known to my new partner (i have), and was met with a a negative (scared, unsure, new territory, "i don;t want to hurt you like that", etc) response, then i would drop it.

After we'd had some time together, after my partner knew me a bit better, knew my responses, knew s/he could trust my honesty and capabilities, then i would (and have) bring the idea up again. I'd ask for a discussion of fisting play and, again, make my interest in it known - gently. I'd have info on how to do it safely ready, just in case my dominant wanted that.

Really, pushing your dominant into something new-to-them cannot be much different than pushing your sub. It's a new idea, maybe a scary idea.

In all cases, my pushing of a dominant is a thing of gentleness and quiet suggestion. Until they feel ready to proceed, it stays off-limits. After all, they are responsible for my safety. If they're not ready to assume that responsibility with regard to our play, then they're not ready, and the subject is again closed...for a time...

 

[MotorCitySam]

Thank you, Cymbidia, that makes sense to me. The reservations I have are largely not because I think things are nasty or disgusting, but because of my concerns that I don't know enough to do them right, and safely.

 

[petrel]

Dom/mes with limits - yes of course they do! *giggle* all humans have limits. I think that it is right to say that soem of us don't think abotu dom/mes limits beign pushed as much as we consider subs limits but in any relationship you shodul be ware of your partners limits.

THere are certaint hings that really don't work for my partner - but then we are not exclusivly Dom/sub (could never be givne my switchyness and bitchyness!!)

Ebony - I agree that you enter into relationships after you have made sure that the other person shares some (if not all) your hard limits, we share hard limits around some things, in other cases what is a hard limit for me is a 0,1 or 2 on the BDSM scale for him but I could not sustain a relationship with someone who had a 4 or 5 on something that was a hard limit for me.

as an example: piercings is probably a 1 for me but a 4 for my partner but becasue I don't like it it is about a 3 for him in the current realtionship. however if it was a HARD limit for me then I am not sure I could stay in the relationship - not because he would push it but because I think your mindset is refelcted in your Hard limits and I could not respect someone who did not operate in the same or similar moral structure that I do.

We BOTH sat down and went through a lovely long (200 items) list of potential actions etc etc and scaled them as HARD and 0-5. We'll probably do it again in a years time just to check which of the 0-5 have changed.

another question - do you count the limits on your relationship in a similar way - ie how monogamous or exclusive is your relationship.

 

[KestralWolfe]

Sam

Firstly, I'd like to say, if you have questions about safety, proceedure, or protocol, you aren't likely to find a better bunch of people than are here to ask those questions to.

Secondly, I'm a Domme. I definately have limits. I set them in the three categories I mentioned earlier, soft, firm, and hard.

Soft: slapping, hair-pulling
(because these aresome things I am uneasy about. if the sub likes it, it's not much of a problem.)

Firm: Watersports.
(Doesn't do anything for me, but will do it occasionally for a sub who loves it)

Hard: Death (uhm, pretty obvious, no?), Animals, Children, Scat
(Never. No how, no way, nuh uh! I don't care how much the sub likes/desires these things, there's no way in hell.)

There ya go, Sam, some limits from the Domme side.......Anyone else care to add theirs?

Be safe, be happy, be well,
KW

 

[cymbidia]

another question - do you count the limits on your relationship in a similar way - ie how monogamous or exclusive is your relationship.

Interesting question.

Y'all know that i *just* finished doing the divorce dance with a good man who is and always will be totally nilla. Needless to say, i'm exulting in my freedom to be exactly who i am from a sexual-relationships perspective after so many years of balancing my marital obligations with my somewhat hidden BDSM self.

I have two relationships going right now. My play partner has a life partner and despite the incredible energy that flows between us and the match we are in many ways (not the least of which is our sexuality), what is between us has carefully circumscribed edges, places that we will not and cannot venture into. I've got another relationship going too, a long distance one (insert a heavy sigh, here, and a quiet but heartfelt "FUCK!"). He's wonderful. We talk all the time, every day. Things are wildly sexual between us. He's single. He lives in Colorado and i've never touched him. (Soon, though. Soon.)

Both of these men are mature. They're men, not boys. They know about me, that i'm fresh out of a nilla marriage and still scarred from the bad ending of my last important BDSM relationship. They know that i'm not ready to love again, not ready to commit to eternal monogamy again. Not now. They know about each other, too.

And they're both making noises about me limiting myself to playing with them, only.

It's funny.
Makes me grin. Ummm. In private, of course.

I would limit myself to them in any case; i'm not one for notches on the bedpost. In my mind, the immense energy and truthfulness it takes to forge intimacy in our kinds of relationships require a narrow focus, something one cannot provide to too many people at the same time. I *like* being monogamous. I'm good at long term relationships.

But i think it kinda endearing, amusing, and downright giggly that these grown men, sophisticated and intelligent both, want to, like, mark me as property or something. Think it's just cuz they know about each other? Is that a male trait or a Dom trait?

In a more direct answer to your question, petrel, i ache for the intimacy and security of exclusivity and monogamy in my love relationships, but in the way i define such matters. Today, now, to me, it's within the boundaries of two very distinct and wonderful relationships with two very different (but both stupendously kinky!) dominants.

 

[Ebonyfire]

How exclusive?

In my case it depends on the nature of the relationship. My relationship with my sissy slut is a part-time relationship. We have no claims on the other. We have defined boundaries. It is more like a play partner relationship. There are times when I do forbid him release, for a time, but not often. I am in a sense training him and showing him how to find a RL Domme. He hopes to enter in a 24/7 BDSM marriage. I call him a breeder! LOL

I am entering into a 24/7 RL Mistress/slave relationship, and I think that I intend to exert a lot of control over my slave. In short, I may branch out, but he will tow the line. I may have others, I may not. He will be the alpha, which means if our relationship is poly, he will always be the number one submissive.

Ebony

 

[MotorCitySam]

Re: Sam

Firstly, I'd like to say, if you have questions about safety, proceedure, or protocol, you aren't likely to find a better bunch of people than are here to ask those questions to.

Secondly, I'm a Domme. I definately have limits. I set them in the three categories I mentioned earlier, soft, firm, and hard.

Soft: slapping, hair-pulling
(because these aresome things I am uneasy about. if the sub likes it, it's not much of a problem.)

Firm: Watersports.
(Doesn't do anything for me, but will do it occasionally for a sub who loves it)

Hard: Death (uhm, pretty obvious, no?), Animals, Children, Scat
(Never. No how, no way, nuh uh! I don't care how much the sub likes/desires these things, there's no way in hell.)

There ya go, Sam, some limits from the Domme side.......Anyone else care to add theirs?

Be safe, be happy, be well,
KW

KestralWolfe, thank you very much for your post. I agree, this is a great place to learn.

 

[MotorCitySam]

Re: How exclusive?

In my case it depends on the nature of the relationship. My relationship with my sissy slut is a part-time relationship. We have no claims on the other. We have defined boundaries. It is more like a play partner relationship. There are times when I do forbid him release, for a time, but not often. I am in a sense training him and showing him how to find a RL Domme. He hopes to enter in a 24/7 BDSM marriage. I call him a breeder! LOL

I am entering into a 24/7 RL Mistress/slave relationship, and I think that I intend to exert a lot of control over my slave. In short, I may branch out, but he will tow the line. I may have others, I may not. He will be the alpha, which means if our relationship is poly, he will always be the number one submissive.

Ebony

How would being the number one submissive differ from being the other submissives? Would the #1 have special privileges, or the right to be in control over the others?

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: How exclusive?

How would being the number one submissive differ from being the other submissives? Would the #1 have special privileges, or the right to be in control over the others?

In a poly household the alpha sub is the number one sub. And it depends on how the household is set up. I would not take a beta sub who my alpha did not approve of. Mainly because I intend to marry my alpha. Sinc ehe is my husband, I wold not bring someone into our household that he could not get along with.

I personally do not see myself with a beta, but more with other play partners or part-time subs who did not live with us.

I would not allow the subs to control each other, but they would interact in some way. My alpha is my life partner, so he is with me "till death us to part." Other Dominants may have a different way of doing things. This is just my preferences.

Ebony

 

[MotorCitySam]

Thank you for explaining, Ebony.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Thank you for explaining, Ebony.

You are welcome.

Ebony

 

[kayte]

Thought this is an interesting topic to bring back to the forefront.

I have what may be considered the 'usual' Hard Limits.

Skat
WS
Children
Animals
Blood
Roman Showers

Those are NO NO, or not just No, but Hell No.

Then everything else is up for grabs. Just did a list again, as it has been awhile, and we will be together soon again.

There was no real change. It is the 0-5 rating list. The changes were more on what I'd like more of.

Did discover a little clarification may be needed on the definition of particular Hard Limits.

You need to remember, a simple word may mean different things to you and your Dom.

For example:

I know that if deep anal play is done, an enema prior to is a good idea. That is fine. Taking one alone is ok. It is not erotic, it is just hygeine.

Enema play, for erotic purposes I categorize as skat play. Others may define it differently.

Another thing is to make sure you discuss, do the Hard Limits apply to any telephone activity, to fantasy play? You may wish to discuss that too.

Hope this thread brings back other comments and thoughts on Hard Limits.

 

[Quint]

<snip>Another thing is to make sure you discuss, do the Hard Limits apply to any telephone activity, to fantasy play? You may wish to discuss that too.</snip>.

I thought this was a very interesting point to bring up, one that is rarely addressed: do any of your hard, unbreakable, impassable limits still appeal to you on a purely fantasy level?

I have some. One I'm comfortable sharing, although it isn't an unbreakable limit per se, is the physical improbability of fisting. I'm very afraid, in Kama Sutra terms, that I'm a doe; as I am structured, at best I can hope to fit my own fist in there. But hearing T threaten me with it? That's positive fear. Does my body goooood.

Even on issues where he has a limit that I don't have, he is willing to push it in words where he won't in deeds. I find this to work quite nicely for both of us; I get the thrill of a fulfilled, taboo kink, and he gets me nicely aroused without having to touch something he genuinely doesn't want to do.

(And my GOD is it disconcerting to look back on a post I made almost a year ago. I was such a different person.)

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Pushing hard limits - a strictly personal view

<snip>
No matter what - a NO is a NO ... but at times "NO" turns into "no" turns into "uhmmmm , maybe" ... and that is when you want to discover and explore that new realm. In a BDSM realation (just as in any other relation) you grow and when trust and confidence into each other grow both may feel inclined to let the more adventurous side come out to play *s* in the sense of the word.

I agree. I have found that things that were hard limits at the beginning of a relatonship (or more appropriately before a relationship has been established); become possibilities after trust has been established and the relationship has matured.

That is one of the reasons that we re-visit all limits intermittently to find out if there has been a change. There usually is.

 

[ownedsubgal]

there are no such things as "hard limits" in my relationship...there are no such things with limits, at least between my Master and i. i am a slave...i have no right to limits. and my Master is of the "anything is possible" mentality...so i know that something that may turn him off today, may thrill him tomorrow...so, i must be prepared to handle anything.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I think a hard limit is one you WILL NOT cross (at least at this time). Sometimes hard limits change. For instance, "no matter how hard you try you will not get me to add another woman to the mix. " This is an absolute hard limit. However, you push the soft limits,and at some point the hard limit may become a soft limit. Lets say, voyerism/public sex. Ok so then we have sex in a cab or something like that. The cabdriver is male. We like this and do it a few more times, but at one point the driver is female and we decide to go ahead with it. Now that we've been watched by a woman, maybe I could be persuaded to do it in a more intimate envirement where the woman doesn't touch, but just gives orders or something. Maybe at some point the hard limit will soften to allow another woman as long as certain "hard limits" are in place such as she can touch me but not him, or she can touch him but penetration is not allowed, or whatever. Then those limits must be followed. A Dom/me has to know when a limit has softened enough to try pushing it. Me and my guy have recently tried some things that previously would have been unthinkable. Its in the timing I think. Sometimes what you think you would never do changes. This happens all over in life (I would never date a smoker, or a married man, or a guy with kids...) life happens

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think it is vital to growth to at least consider whether to push hard limits, and equally important, when and how. I am at the stage in our relationship where I am no longer permitted limits of my own. He is aware of those areas I will find difficult and why, but it is now his responsibility to decide whether to work on taking us through them. Some of them I can see would be beneficial psychologically to me to have to overcome and triumph, others I am still a little wary of the outcomes.

One thing I treasure about our bond though is we both started out sharing similar limits, but over time have revisited them together to define why there was a limit and whether that was something valid or whether in reality it would benefit us in some way to challenge them.This does not mean Master is not fixed in his beliefs and dominance, but displays his ability to be flexible and put the limits in context as relating to our individual relationship, not ones either of us have had with other people. It allows us to grow together and individually, and as such manages to keep the reality interesting, fresh, and alive.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

For me there are limits that *should* be pushed, limits that are just uncertainty or unfamiliaity, there are limits that should not be pushed "hard" limits for lack of a better word -- those are the things that would scar and cause the submissive to hate me forever-- and then there are limits that are just probably not productive to push. You could...but why?

Cages are an example with M. He says they just make him feel pukey.

Maybe it's my own life as a bottom that causes me to respect that. There was really nothing gained in doing the things that made me feel pukey, at least for me.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Bump........

 

[moraine]

Just a short reply. My husband, my master is making a list for Doms. Its based on the subs list and the terms a little different.

Things the Dom/me would like to do/try. Things they WANT/WILL do.. and Things they DONT want to do.

If anyone is intrested when the list is done, Ill pass it on.

Im not sure if there is one out there, but this is an excel sheet, so it calculates and shows the whats and what nots as you scroll, easier to read.

PM me if you would like this info

 

[A Desert Rose]

... One thing I treasure about our bond though is we both started out sharing similar limits, but over time have revisited them together to define why there was a limit and whether that was something valid or whether in reality it would benefit us in some way to challenge them.This does not mean Master is not fixed in his beliefs and dominance, but displays his ability to be flexible and put the limits in context as relating to our individual relationship, not ones either of us have had with other people. It allows us to grow together and individually, and as such manages to keep the reality interesting, fresh, and alive.

Catalina

This thread that Catalina kindly bumped some time ago is full of a wealth of information, especially considering it is only 2 pages long.

Just as Catalina points out in the above paragraph, limits do change. Some of my previous hard limits are no longer limits at all. Amazing how things change.

 

[Desdemona]

good bump ADR

For me there are limits that *should* be pushed, limits that are just uncertainty or unfamiliaity, there are limits that should not be pushed "hard" limits for lack of a better word -- those are the things that would scar and cause the submissive to hate me forever-- and then there are limits that are just probably not productive to push. You could...but why?

Cages are an example with M. He says they just make him feel pukey.

Maybe it's my own life as a bottom that causes me to respect that. There was really nothing gained in doing the things that made me feel pukey, at least for me.

See for me, Netz is talking about pushing soft limits. I can cope with that and want it done, in fact. My soft limits are the things that change over time in response to pushing and experience. My hard limits are things that would damage me in some way. Messing around with those is a deal breaker for me. But that's just me.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: good bump ADR

See for me, Netz is talking about pushing soft limits. I can cope with that and want it done, in fact. My soft limits are the things that change over time in response to pushing and experience. My hard limits are things that would damage me in some way. Messing around with those is a deal breaker for me. But that's just me.

Yes but you see, your hard limits and mine are not entirely the same thing. ;-)

 

[A Desert Rose]

In fact Des, you might recall that caning was on my hard limit list.

It no longer is, now that the bruises have faded...