Propentiating Women as Victims...

[Mae13]

OK, to set the tone for this rant... :

Last night, I was headed back from a friend's house. It was after midnight, and it was damn cold outside. There was a fellow standing on a corner by a stop sign, a bag of possessions by his side. He waved at me, I rolled down my window and he asked for a ride down to Hardee's (about a mile or so on my way home) as he and his friend had just had a fight and he was moving out. He didn't have alcohol on his breath, and didn't look strung out (and as someone who spent many years working in an ER, I am pretty good at noticing that about folks!). So I popped the locks, and gave the fellow an uneventful ride and dropped him off. Now...to the thick of the whole thing here....

I mentioned this to a friend today, and she freaked out. I got the typical rant how "women shouldn't do that and blah blah blah...get abducted and raped, blah blah blah....". And honestly, I am SO FUCKING SICK of this attitude it drives me nuts. I have heard this bullshit all my life. I am indepentant, get over it. I take road trips by myself. I camp by myself. I walk in big cities by myself, sometimes at night *GASP*!! I talk to strangers, and even homeless people! I do not think it does women justice to constantly tell them how they should live their lives in fear. I think it propentiates a society of women who timidly walk around, afraid that around every corner lurks some thug or rapist ready to pounce. Women who walk around LOOKING like victims, who attract the bad folks...

Ya know what? I am not going to let life pass me by while I wait for some hulking man to walk beside me everywhere, looking all tough and Neanderthal to scare away all the baddies. I have walked through all sorts of neighborhoods in places like LA, San Fran, Portland, Seattle, DC, etc....sometimes even at night! Not ONCE have I ever had a problem. I think the reason why this happens is because of the stance I take. I walk with my head up, making eye contact, and am always aware of my surroundings. I pay close attention to my instincts; they have never lead me wrong in this regard. I don't do crazy things like go walking alone in the nastiest parts of town. I am not a short, frail looking woman...I think this helps as well. I am rather well-versed in various methods of self defense. If someone says something to me I don't think is quite appropriate, I am short in my response, but firm as well. On occasion, when I think the situation warrants, I travel armed. And yes, I have training, yes I know blade/gun safety, and yes I'm a damn good shot.

Life is too fucking short people. I think bombarding women with things they should be afraid of only increases the problem. I'm not going to stop any time soon; I don't have time to waste my life missing out on things because I'm waiting for some white knight to follow me around and protect me. Am I the only one who thinks so? I have people telling me I should be afraid so much it makes me want to puke.

Am I wrong here? Is my attitude truly dangerous to myself? Is teaching women to be strong (physically AND mentally/emotionally) going to set them up for victimization? Should we be afraid to go out on our own, to help a stranger, to be decent human beings?

Arrrghhh...I'm just tired of hearing this response, I guess. It frustrates me, but it seems I am running into it more and more these past couple years. Others thoughts?

Frustrated Mae

 

[Siren]

ok I wasnt gonna post but I need to say a few things to ya

 

[Weird Harold]

So I popped the locks, and gave the fellow an uneventful ride and dropped him off. Now...to the thick of the whole thing here....

It isnt just women who get that sort of response about picking up strangers -- I listened to my father-in-law rant about dirty, thieving, murderous, hitchhikers for several years when I was driving into Las Vegas alone. I almost always pickd up a hitchhiker for conversation and company on the trip and it drove the FIL crazy. I never had the heart to tell him that he fit the profile of the kind of hitcher I wouldn't pick up.

Siren and your friend do have a point though -- a single woman, alone, picking up strangers is not the safest course of action. Don't live in fear, but don't be reckless either.

A man in the same situation is just a tiny bit safer because of society's preconceptions about women and especially women alone -- not totally safe, just a little less in danger.

 

[Mae13]

Re: ok I wasnt gonna post but I need to say a few things to ya

I have worked countless death penalty defense cases,
and let me tell you without a doubt
that all the murderers, rapist and serial killers I have ever asked this question to answer the same...........
why this or that woman?
answer: cuz she was alone, let me in her car, home, whereever, and she was unlucky that night or day.

it doesnt make you a victim
it is just the way our world is today
you are vulernable.
and if you dont realize that
someday you will truly be a victim.

killers and rapists are opportunistic
you are giving them the opportunity.

be smart, wise and careful
still live your life to the fullest
just dont live your life carelessly.

Was it truly solely based on her being alone? Or was it based on more than that? How did she look, what kind of person was she? Did she look clued in and aware of her surroundings? Often times you hear about deterrant factors; that perpetrators have NOT chosen someone as their victim BECAUSE they didn't "look" like one...

I recognize the fact that I am as vulnerable as the next person; I by no means think I am invulnerable. It is more the fear basis...that so many people pretty much seem to think that a woman is NEVER safe anywhere by herself. It seems, technically, that any time I went anywhere (whether alone or with someone else), the potential is there. I use all the knowledge and instinct and weapons in my arsenal (not necessarily physical weapons ) to prevent myself from becoming targetted as a victim; so far it seems to have worked. I have friends that are the subject of countless assaults and rapes...and I wonder what is the difference?

Yes, I am independant, but also cautious and aware...

I was more curious about people's opinions on how things are presented to us as women...do you think that almost constant "preparation" of women to be victims increases their chances of becoming one? That if women were raised to be more independant, strong, intuitous and aware...there would be less victims overall?

Be Well,
Mae

 

[Siren]

you are falling into the same myths that you are flailing against

 

[photographer]

Read the original item again .....

Mae clearly said that she has had years of ER experience in recognising certain types of people. She also mentioned her own posture and body language, and the fact she has self defence training and is often armed.

Here's a woman who was NOT reckless. She summed up the situation, made a decision through experience and logic and gave a stranded fellow human being a lift to his destination.

 

[Siren]

not the issue here photographer

 

[Mae13]

Re: you are falling into the same myths that you are flailing against

now to say your friends are more victimized than you because they seem more vulernable or weak or somehow responsible for being victims as you insinuate is both insulting and demeaning to them and women in general.

dont be so arrogrant to think you have something over them that protects you above them
you dont.
they were unlucky for whatever reason.
your arrogance will get you killed, raped or beaten some day if you are not careful.

your attitude seems intolerant of your friends, their valid concerns and most of all, their unfortunate experiences as victims of crime.
a victim is never to blame for being a victim.
she was simply prey caught by a vicious predator.

believe me, I was as arrogant as you once.
<snip>
being scared will keep you vigilant, strong and safe.
and not a victim,
you are not a victim because you are scared..........
you are a victim because
you are stupid.

dont be stupid.

Actually Siren, the things I was speaking of are things I have heard all my life, from criminals themselves, from law enforcement, and from my various defense instructors. I am in NO way intolerant of the friends I have had that are victims. Nor am I arrogant or stupid for my thoughts.

I have heard over and over again that it DOES matter how you present yourself, and act. Take two people. Not even women, just two people walking down the street alone. One radiates discomfort and fear of walking alone, their eyes are glued to the ground in front of them, paying no mind to their surrounding, their hands in their pockets, etc. The other has is walking at a normal pace, their head up, shoulders back, eyes looking about them, they are obviously aware of where they are and who/what is around them. Their hands are free at their sides, should they need them for self-defense. Are you saying they both have the exact same chance of becoming a victim? I'm simply going off of what I've been told by professionals that deal with these situations, but what I've heard would answer that question "no".

So take the whole "woman" part out of it. Just apply my whole attempt (which I feel has been rather missed here) to people in general. How would *you* recommend they protect themselves from becoming a victim? What is the magic answer? Never go anywhere alone? What do you do to prevent yourself from becoming a victim?

I mean for the gods' sake, it's not like I wander through dark alleys saying "heeeere rapist rapist rapist..." I rarely give strangers lifts. I was simply trying to explain why I do not intend to EVER let fear rule my life. I AM cautious, I AM smart about the way I interact with the world around me. I think my self-preparation is a large part of what has kept me safe; I don't really believe in just dumb luck protecting the innocent.

The example I gave was just the catalyst for why this was on my mind tonight. The whole issue goes far, far beyond that one thing. I guess this is a sore spot for others as well if I cannot bring up questions and request opinions without being personally insulted. Ah well, ce'st la vie.

 

[Siren]

you asked I gave you an answer

 

[Siren]

btw I never insulted you anywhere in this thread

 

[Cheyenne]

Mae, I hope you listen to Siren. She is one of the few here with firsthand access to the minds of these criminals.

You're playing the odds. Or trying to defy them, depending on your point of view. Eventually, you'll lose.

One other thing I'd point out that didn't get mentioned from your original post. You say you don't want to be afraid, but that you travel armed when necessary. If you weren't at all afraid, you wouldn't need that gun with you. Fear isn't necessarily a bad thing! It is an emotion that sometimes protects us by keeping us from doing things that may harm ourselves. If you feel like you need to be armed in a situation, maybe your fear is telling you that you shouldn't be there at all?

I have another question. I believe I remember that you're a military person. Do you think that military training has anything to do with your attitude, Mae? Aren't you trained to overcome fear? Again, while it may be critical for survival in a military situation, I don't think that is necessarily a good thing for you in the civilian world.

 

[Black_Bird]

Re: btw I never insulted you anywhere in this thread

OPPORTUNITY makes ya a victim, period.

Maybe she is saying opportunity knocks for all equally but perfers fear with over-welming prejugdice? *shrug*

Do you truely think men can defend themselves much better against an attack? In an age of gun violence on the streets everyday, do you think a criminal will really give a damn if you are a male or not? If you are strong and muscular? More fun for the bullet to tear into.

Perhaps the pretense to chivalry is best left to opening doors and pulling out chairs? When it comes to violence today, we are all the victim.

 

[FieryKitty]

This is interesting. I will admit, there are certain things I don't do alone because I am afraid. For example, I won't go out to a nightclub by myself because I think a woman alone, especially someplace where there is drinking, is a target.

I have a confident walk, but I'm not a large person and I have no training in self defense and no weapons, so there are times when I feel vulnerable. Should I feel like a wimp for that? I don't think so. I think it's important to take precautions. A male friend was surprised that I lock my car doors when I'm in the car. His surprise astounded me. I guess women look at the world differently - in some ways from a victim's point of view.

Siren, perhaps it's because of all the horrible things you've heard from evil people that danger is magnified for you. How could it not be? I admire you for just not crawling under the covers and staying there after all you've heard.

Mae, it sounds like you've struck a good balance for the most part. The thought of you inviting someone into your car scares me, but as far as the places you'll go and the things you'll do on your own, it sounds like you're aware of dangers but have reasonable precautions against them.

 

[Astro]

Mae13 you sound like you have the right idea. Siren has her opinion because she has heard from the mouths of killers.

Mae has training to defend herself if she needs, but so far she hasnt had to. I am not saying that she wont but so far she hasnt. Attitude is very important, I dont walk through rough areas every so often, I live in one. Inner city with dark streets and gangs of youths etc. Walking with a confident posture and making eye contact is using basic animalistic concepts. In this way I avoid being beaten up and mugged, I hope I dont have to defend myself as I dont carry a gun or knife - illegal to do so here.

Despite this I know that if someone really wanted to kill me, not just any person but me that my posture wouldnt help. 50 serial killers in the USA amongst 250million people, low odds.

Fear keeps you alive but this is not being scared.

 

[Gingersnap]

Mae, while it is laudable that you are unafraid of situations that most of us avoid, it also strikes me as unwise. I do not know if you have ever been the recipient of a violent crime. I tend to think not. It just strikes me as naive and self delusional to think you can "read" intent in another person. I am sure you are familar with the "it can never happen to me" mindset. Teenagers have it. With all due respect, I wonder if you have it too? So far you have been lucky. I pray you stay lucky.

 

[MsFigment]

Two Words

Ted Bundy

Ted Bundy

 

[Cheyenne]

And the lightbulb goes on! Gingersnap, I think you may be partially correct. I HAVE been the victim of a potentially violent crime, almost 20 years ago. I did everything wrong. I came home about 10 pm, parked my car in the garage and had way too many things in my hands to carry to the house. I didn't have my key ready for the door. In the time I put my stuff down and fumbled for my key, a man walked up to me from the busy street next to the house. He was asking what time it was, but I KNEW as soon as his foot left the public sidewalk that he was coming for me. He grabbed my purse and pulled. We were about the same size, so I pulled back! He put his hand in his jacket and told me he had a gun and would kill me if I didn't let go. I still didn't let go immediately. I thought about it for a second and decided the odds were in my favor, but I wasn't going to take the chance that I was wrong. He looked like a teenage thug, not a killer. But I didn't know for sure. I was lucky, I ended up with a cut hand from the metal on my purse handle cutting into me when I held on. But I wasn't raped, beat up, or killed.

I learned that night that "it can't happen to me" wasn't true. It can. I am more careful now and pay attention to what is going on around me, keeping myself out of situations that may not be safe. At least I try to avoid them. Picking up a man alone at night would definitely be on that list of things to avoid doing.

 

[seXieleXie]

while living in fear is no good, being reckless isn't any better. to walk alone at night while armed and aware is one thing. to take a stranger into your car is quite another in my opinion.

 

[lavender]

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

I used to pick up hitchikers before I was a parent, then a young girl from where I lived was picked up, raped, had her arms cutoff and left for dead in the desert (I think they found her in Nevada IIRC).

I will pick up someone who is obvious distress and needs help; such as a person with a broken vehicle away from a city. But if it is just a matter of convenience for them I will not. Not only is it dangerous for me, and I have responsibilities, but it is dangerous for them - woman or man.

And I agree with Siren, women are more vulnerable; if for no other reason than they are percieved not only as vulnerable, but also as objects of sexual desire, whereas this is not as prevelant with men.

If you were a man, and you were looking to pick someone up, rape them, rob them and murder them, which would you choose - a 6'6" 240# guy like me who might be carrying a weapon, or a 5'4" petite woman who most likely is carrying nothing more than pepper spray?

 

[lavender]

 

[Calamity Jane]

I used to live in a less than safe neighborhood. I felt confident there because I knew my neighbors, I walked my dog in the evenings, I sat on the front porch and talked to people who walked by on the sidewalk. I felt safe, because I was part of the community, I made my presence known, and I didn't cower in fear of what I knew wasn't a terribly safe place to live.

I was carjacked at gunpoint on night in my driveway. I walked out of my house, looked around, saw a man I recognized walking down the sidewalk, waved hello to him, called goodbye to my sister as she closed the front door, and walked to the door of my car. At the same time I heard gravel crunch behind me, I felt steel pressed against my neck.

Long story short, the guy got away with my car, was caught later, confessed all, and is serving 10 years. The point is, that no amount of self defense training (which i have), no amount of being aware of my surroundings, no amount of anything but luck would have kept me out of that situation.

I saw the man, and because I recognized him, because I'd talked to him almost daily, it never occured to me that he was a danger.

I don't spend my days scared, I still believe that I can prevent a lot of bad things from happening by appearing strong and self assured... but I also don't deliberately put myself into dangerous situations.

Bravery and a belief in the goodness of humans is one thing. Tempting the fates, quite another.

To answer your question, no, I don't think women should be raised to feel that they need to fear their surroundings. But I do think that humans need to be aware that bad things happen, and usually when we don't expect them to, and by people that we don't think would hurt us. Being safe is not the same thing as being scared. I teach my daughter not to wander off in the store, not to walk through a parking lot without holding my hand, and not to go outside after dark unless a grownup is with her. I am not teaching her that she's an easy victim, I'm teaching her that sometimes, safety is more important than her immediate wishes.

 

[Mae13]

Hrm, I think I should not have used that example, it seems to have significantly detracted from the question I was trying to get an opinion on.

I did not say I was never afraid; I simply said I do not plan on letting fear rule my life. I don't let it keep me in my house, afraid to go out and experience the world. I know and accept that there are lots of nasty people in this world; that's what keeps me alert when I'm out and about alone. That's what makes me arm myself if I am going to be out in the woods by myself for a few days, or on a road trip. But I still have asked the question and not gotten answers...what IS the answer then? To never go anywhere alone? To never walk through a big city without company?

As I said before, I am not stupid when I am out by myself (well, unless you consider me stupid for being out anywhere alone in the first place, in which case this whole issue is a moot point). I don't wander into bad neighborhoods, if I have to be out at night I stick to the most well-lit areas, with the most people around. I don't go places alone that involve alcohol/drugs in any way. I live in a town where many people still don't lock their homes or cars; but I do. I also lock my doors when I am driving in my car. I check my car before getting into it when it's been parked in a dark parking lot. I do a hell of a lot of things in the interest of keeping myself as safe as possible, since reclusing myself from the world around me isn't an option. I do as many things as I can think of to help prevent myself from becoming a victim. If I thought it could never happen to me, I would never do the things I do for the sake of prevention. I travel by myself often; if I waited for someone to be with me all the time, I would miss out on much of what life has to offer.

In reality; one is technically never safe. How many crimes happen in the home? In one's car? One of my best friend's grandparents were bludgeoned to death when they answered their doorbell. Ted Bundy killed women who were out alone; The Boston Strangler preferred to kill them in their own home. Where do you draw the line for how much you let fear rule your life?

And personally, I am one of the statistics. I have been a victim before to varying degrees of violence. From a family member and from someone who I called a friend for many years. So I certainly do understand that there are non-trustworthy people in this world. It was when I was much younger, and did not have the ability to fight back very well. Which is one of the reasons why I have tried to make sure that I have done things to help me out if I ever do become targetted. Will it work? Well, I'll let ya'll know if it ever happens. Unfortunately, I don't think my military experience has much to do with it; they don't really focus at all on self defense like skills when you're a nurse.

For those of you who have been victimized; how did it change your personal actions? Did you retract from the world some, or did it just make you more aware and defensive when you did go out?

Since it seems I'm mostly the odd person out on this discussion, I'd still like to hear people's opinions on what the better answer is. As someone who wants to experience as much of the world as I can before I die, who often has to travel alone for business/leisure, and who has few close friends locally I spend a lot of time with, what should I do? Should I stay home/in my hotels all the time to be a little more safe? Should I never go out by myself? Should I miss out on seeing the beauty of the world around me every time I don't have someone to drag with me on a camping trip? What is a better answer? I think I have found a happy medium. I still go out and see most of the things I want to; and I take many precautions with the intent to be safer about it.

I do think children are a different subject altogether. I certainly think it's a whole different issue when it's someone who doesn't have the capacity to defend themselves. This is purely thinking about folks who are adults. We do have a duty to protect them. I also think it's important to give them the tools to make the world a safer place for them.

 

[BustyTheClown]

I agree with Mae

Mae, I think that you sound like an independent woman who has her head on straight. I could understand why people would disagree with you about your stance if you weren't more aware while you were out on your own. I think you are perfectly right in carrying on the way you do. Life is full of risks for everyone, not just women. I get the feeling that people just tell us we're weak so we think we really are and don't object when we are taken advantage of in one way or another -- we think we had it coming because we just aren't as big and strong as men are.
If we all chickened out and never did anything because we *might* be hurt, we'd all be hermits and never see the light of day. Hell, we wouldn't even feel safe in our own homes. The way I look at this issue is the way I look at the issue of flying after the attacks on September 11th: there is always a risk of something going wrong, but if people stop going on with their lives then the world just won't be able to function. Granted, the chances of getting in a plane crash or having a terrorist on your plane are much slimmer than being mugged while walking alone at night... but people have to keep on keeping on.
I don't think I would go out at night my myself, but that's because I'm a petite young woman. I'm strong and know which parts to hit if I am attacked, but even though I carry myself much like you, Mae, I don't want to put myself in danger. I must admit, those that tell women that they are weak and vulnerable have gotten to me, even though I know I could handle many situations that may come up. I don't travel armed, either, since I don't believe in violence, so that's another deterrent from walking around alone at night.
In short, as long as you stay alert and aware while you're out and about, I say all the more power to you!

 

[Calamity Jane]

Mae, I think your question has changed. There is a vast difference between being afraid to go out alone at night in an unfamiliar city, and locking yourself in your house.

My roommate in college was a lock yourself away kind of person. She'd freak out if she got home in the middle of the day and I was cleaning house with the windows and doors open. She would sit in the house with the blinds pulled, so no one could see in. She was absolutely paranoid that there was a 'bad guy' just waiting to spring out and get her. (Which contrasted strangely with her penchant for bringing home random men from bars.)

I think everyone is answering your question. No, we shouldn't be afraid, just because we're women. No, we shouldn't wait until we have an escort in order to do the things that we enjoy. But we should always be aware of the dangers presented on a daily basis, and strive not to fall prey to them.

BTW... I don't lock my doors at home, I leave my keys in the ignition of my car when it's parked in the driveway, and I do travel alone, or with my children, often... in general, I trust people to not give in to their darker side.