Proofreading

[Demiurging]

When I'm editing for other people, I always make a point of asking upfront what the scope of their requested edit is. I don't want to waste my time with developmental advice when all they wanted was to make sure the periods are in the right places.

But, most often, I am going to note down places where I would be tripped up as a reader for one reason or another. While it's not the place of the editor to, unprompted, start changing elements ranging from simple prose to plot, we should all damp our egos to accept helpful opinions given in good faith. I'm surely not the only one here who's had to cut significant portions that I loved because they didn't do for the plot what the plot needed to be done, and the author is certainly not the best judge of such things by default when we've just spent however long writing it in the first place.

As to basic grammar and its effect(affect?) on one's scores, yes this is a site for amateurs, but shouldn't the amateur be looking to improve themselves? Star ratings aren't always the best signal for whether a work is great, they're affected by too many variables to be used as a de-facto quality metric (everything from "this is unreadable" to "this wasn't my fetish and I don't care that it was clearly signposted" are factors cited of one-stars). But losing stars for grammatical issues is in my opinion on the more reasonable side.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

As to basic grammar and its effect(affect?) on one's scores, yes this is a site for amateurs, but shouldn't the amateur be looking to improve themselves? Star ratings aren't always the best signal for whether a work is great, they're affected by too many variables to be used as a de-facto quality metric (everything from "this is unreadable" to "this wasn't my fetish and I don't care that it was clearly signposted" are factors cited of one-stars). But losing stars for grammatical issues is in my opinion on the more reasonable side.

I have seen too many instances, with my own stories and others, where comments from a reader indicate that they voted down a story due to grammar. The problem I see in most of these comments is that the specific examples usually cited relate to dialog rather than the narrative, typically associated with the "proper" use of pronouns.

We're having the writing of amateur (semi-pro) authors graded by amateur readers. That's the bottom line here.

Authors should certainly do their best to produce quality work and strive to always improve, but these readers are not your college literary professor by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Demiurging]

I have seen too many instances, with my own stories and others, where comments from a reader indicate that they voted down a story due to grammar. The problem I see in most of these comments is that the specific examples usually cited relate to dialog rather than the narrative, typically associated with the "proper" use of pronouns.

We're having the writing of amateur (semi-pro) authors graded by amateur readers. That's the bottom line here.

Authors should certainly do their best to produce quality work and strive to always improve, but these readers are not your college literary professor by any stretch of the imagination.

Absolutely fair, not that I would necessarily trust the opinion of any of my college professors when I had them. But then, while comments on that order are annoying, they can be summarily dismissed as irrelevant. And I may say that there's really no such thing as an "amateur reader" if I'm understanding your use of the term correctly. The readership(viewership, etc) of any medium are going to have little to no experience creating the work themselves; you will always be subjected to the criticism of the lay man whether you're here or you're being professionally published in the public sphere and understanding legitimate stumbling blocks for them will do nothing but help you in the future.

I'm not familiar with your work or the criticism you're speaking of. I can imagine several problems with pronouns which could make reading very confusing; any sex scene between gay people necessitates more focus on sidestepping the issue of pronouns being connected to specific individuals for example. Out of curiosity, what problems are your readers having with the "proper" use of pronouns?

 

[BobbyBrandt]

Absolutely fair, not that I would necessarily trust the opinion of any of my college professors when I had them. But then, while comments on that order are annoying, they can be summarily dismissed as irrelevant. And I may say that there's really no such thing as an "amateur reader" if I'm understanding your use of the term correctly. The readership(viewership, etc) of any medium are going to have little to no experience creating the work themselves; you will always be subjected to the criticism of the lay man whether you're here or you're being professionally published in the public sphere and understanding legitimate stumbling blocks for them will do nothing but help you in the future.

I'm not familiar with your work or the criticism you're speaking of. I can imagine several problems with pronouns which could make reading very confusing; any sex scene between gay people necessitates more focus on sidestepping the issue of pronouns being connected to specific individuals for example. Out of curiosity, what problems are your readers having with the "proper" use of pronouns?

Here is just one example:

Would you ever write, “The best you could hope for is Mark agreeing to let you watch I”?
No, you would write, “The best you could hope for is Mark agreeing to let you watch ME.”

So, your original sentence should read, “The best you could hope for is Mark agreeing to let you watch him and me together.”

The comment focuses on rules of written grammar, ignoring how real people might speak. If you ever take the time to examine critiques of grammar for most stories on Literotica, you will find 90%+ of the comments are targeting dialogue.

I admire people having knowledge of proper grammar, but IMO they need to learn how to apply that knowledge to different facets of writing or keep their comments to themselves.

 

[GrantBricksly]

Here is just one example:

Would you ever write, “The best you could hope for is Mark agreeing to let you watch I”?
No, you would write, “The best you could hope for is Mark agreeing to let you watch ME.”

So, your original sentence should read, “The best you could hope for is Mark agreeing to let you watch him and me together.”

The comment focuses on rules of written grammar, ignoring how real people might speak. If you ever take the time to examine critiques of grammar for most stories on Literotica, you will find 90%+ of the comments are targeting dialogue.

I admire people having knowledge of proper grammar, but IMO they need to learn how to apply that knowledge to different facets of writing or keep their comments to themselves.

You are absolutely correct. But you are always going to have people that do that. That's just a troll. Nothing more. They may not think so, but they are. Because, as you said, it was dialogue. And that is a very important thing. Because while what they said was technically correct for grammatical writing, PEOPLE do not talk in correct grammar. Hell, I hear people literally say "LOL" sometimes. I cringe when I hear it, but they still say it. So, the rules are different the moment you put quotations around it. And if anyone is commenting or downvoting you otherwise..then they are nothing more than a troll. Maybe that sounds harsh, but it's the truth. So ignore them, and keep on doing what you are doing. Take CONSTRUCTIVE criticism to heart and improve your writing. And throw the rest in the trash where it belongs

 

[BobbyBrandt]

I can imagine several problems with pronouns which could make reading very confusing;

Try reading the novel, "Forrest Gump".

 

[GrantBricksly]

I think people hardly ever talk the way writers make people talk, because, eh, people often mess up their sentences, change directions while talking, add lots of 'eh' and/or whatever other sounds people make while speaking, get interrupted by others, interrupt others, react on body-language, ...

Reading and listening are two different experiences, and you just cannot expect the in- and output for those two to be word-by-word similar. Don't use 'PEOPLE do not talk in correct grammar' as a rule to not use correct grammar in your stories; it might make your stories undigestible. A good reading experience is often a smooth reading experience, and correct use of grammar and such straightens the path for reading. Most errors just make you cringle, and cringeling often is a bad feeling; you may not want to give your readers bad feelings about your story. It's fine to use errors to create character, but don't overdo.

And I wouldn't automatically throw someone, commenting on grammatical errors, on the troll-pile. They could be nit-pickers, and some nit-pickers may be trolls, but definitely not all of them.

I disagree. I have read several stories, books, etc. that include dialogue that fits the way real people speak. With interruptions, 'ehs' and even breaks to explain the body language usage. It's all in how much work the writer is willing to put into it. But then you get the "Nit-pickers" as you call them that want to complain and down-vote a story because someone used a grammatically incorrect sentence within dialogue, where it should be acceptable, as long as it is true to the way that character speaks. And that, in my opinion is the makings of a troll. They are simply complaining for the sake of complaining, or maybe for the sake of gaining attention. Either way, that's a troll to me. Because that is no longer helpful or constructive.

That's just my opinion and I am just one person. And believe me, I am far from perfect in my writing.

 

[Comshaw]

As a sausage fingered, two digit typist and mild dyslexic I make all kinda' mistakes. Before I had Grammerly and other programs I tried the volunteer editor thing. I sent out a dozen quires to those on the volunteer editors list. I got back no replies. I tried a second time, six messages to six editors. I got back one. The lady did a fabulous job with one of my stories, but when she finished it she had to stop editing for health reasons. I tried again with my next story. This time the editor changed some things that distorted the story line. I thanked him for the work, changed it back and started looking for alternatives. I'm with Voboy on this. It's my story, my voice, my way of telling the tale. If it's anything other than a grammar thing, I'll change it IF I see fit. That's not to say I won't take advice. Show me a different way that works, that feels right and I'll be happy to try it. But if it doesn't fit, if it doesn't feel right, I ain't gunna do it. It's my story after all.

Between a strong spell checker and Grammerly I've finally come to a system that seems to work for me. An occasional mistake still slips through. The key word here is "occasional". Depending on the length of the story, one or two for the shorter ones, three or four for the longer ones. I do get the inevitable English Professor wannabe telling me about it, how it should never happen and how it was so traumatic it destroyed the story for them and they stopped reading when they found it. I ignore them knowing the vast majority of readers don't mind a mistake or two in a story. I am happy with that. I will be looking into the text to word thing BobbyBrandt suggested. It sounds like that might work well for me.

As far as writing style, seat of the pants writer all the way. I usually have an outline, but it's all in my head, nothing in print. The characters tell me where the story should go. Sometimes they take me down a blind alley and leave me hanging, sometimes it gets really dark and foreboding. But because of my style and my mindset, I must follow them to the end.

As far as the Bard, there are 7 William Shakespeare signatures (verified by handwriting experts that they are all from the same person) in existence. Everyone of them are spelled differently. Either Billy was a huge joker OR William didn't give a flying fuck about spelling, OR he was a severe dyslexic. Has it really mattered one way or the other? The brilliance of his work speaks for its self.

On this thread degenerating and wandering far afield from its original question and intent, every thread here has that potential. The OP's question or opinion or posted fact is just a catalyst to get a discussion going. Some of the most informative educational threads I've read here have started with one subject only to cover many before its end.

Time to shut my mouth and go back to listening.

TA

Comshaw

 

[Lifestyle66]

I have seen too many instances, with my own stories and others, where comments from a reader indicate that they voted down a story due to grammar. The problem I see in most of these comments is that the specific examples usually cited relate to dialog rather than the narrative, typically associated with the "proper" use of pronouns.

We're having the writing of amateur (semi-pro) authors graded by amateur readers. That's the bottom line here.

Authors should certainly do their best to produce quality work and strive to always improve, but these readers are not your college literary professor by any stretch of the imagination.

When we write our stories, I think it's important to keep in mind the medium of communication. The reader is absorbing the story through their eyes, and not through their ears. Listening to people speak is different from reading the same narration in quotes in writing.

I might listen to a toddler try speaking in mispronounced words or broken sentences, and I may patiently talk to them for five minutes. But I don't want to tediously read those same misspelled words or partial sentences, and work at trying to determine what the author meant. When I'm reading a story, I'm reading something written by an adult, and it should be clear and easy enough to understand for me to enjoy the experience.

This is why I don't like stories which use too many local idioms from regional dialects. A few idioms in a story can make it interesting to show some cultural differences. But if I have to stop to interpret every other sentence to understand a regional character's broken English, that's work. And I don't read stories here for work.

 

[BiscuitHammer]

As has been pointed out earlier, this is an amateur site. Readers who knock off a point for the occasional typo are clearly deluded into thinking that they're Longfellow or some other wordsmith of note. If a story's grammar is painfully bad, I just stop reading. I feel no need to flex.

And heaven knows, I make plenty of typos. I'm terrible at self-editing, because I know what I meant to say and as a result, skin right over the problem, missing it entirely.

Since admitting this to myself, I've acquainted an editor and 99% of my typos have gone away. Unfortunately, they're American, so I have to keep putting my 'u' back into words that they edit it out of.

The compromise has been that any American characters speak without a 'u' in their words. The Canadian and British characters razz them by saying they can hear them saying the word spoken improperly...

But they're actually an editor by profession, so my typos are largely gone. And for this I am thankful. It makes a big difference.

Find yourself an editor. Much recommended.

 

[Rob_Royale]

If a story's grammar is painfully bad, I just stop reading. I feel no need to flex.

I do the same. We all should.

 

[SimonDoom]

I disagree. I have read several stories, books, etc. that include dialogue that fits the way real people speak. With interruptions, 'ehs' and even breaks to explain the body language usage. It's all in how much work the writer is willing to put into it. But then you get the "Nit-pickers" as you call them that want to complain and down-vote a story because someone used a grammatically incorrect sentence within dialogue, where it should be acceptable, as long as it is true to the way that character speaks. And that, in my opinion is the makings of a troll. They are simply complaining for the sake of complaining, or maybe for the sake of gaining attention. Either way, that's a troll to me. Because that is no longer helpful or constructive.

That's just my opinion and I am just one person. And believe me, I am far from perfect in my writing.

In my opinion, a reader who criticizes a writer for writing dialogue that is grammatically incorrect but is written the way real people actually talk is a fool. That's someone who very likely is being a lazy and sloppy reader who cannot tell the important difference between dialogue and narrative. I agree, that's an example of a nit-picky reader that I would not agree with. It can be overdone, and my general view is that authors should be careful not to overdo it when trying to write the way people talk, because a little goes a long way. But faulting an author for not making spoken dialogue conform strictly to grammatical norms is silly.

Narrative is different. Unless the narrative is in the first person, and the author is trying to write the narrative a though it comes from the first-person POV character's own distinctive voice (the best example I can think of is Huckleyberry Finn, but there are many other examples, such as Faulkner's The Sound And The Fury, which is narrated by three different children with different levels of education and intelligence).

The MOST common mistakes that bug me are mistakes in handling dialogue -- not the content of the speech within the quote marks, but the use of narrative and dialogue tags around the dialogue. There are at most ten basic rules one must know to be able to write dialogue competently, and it really grates on me to read dialogue by people who have taken no time to figure out the basics. It just does. It impairs the reading experience. That's my perfectly legitimate perspective as an author, and if I choose to share my reaction with an author it's not trollish (I try to be constructive about it). There are several good articles available at this Site alone that offer guidelines on writing good dialogue. It's well worth every author's time to learn the basics.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Proofread? Why? If I want to find errors, I can just publish and instantly the readers will point out every slip!

OK, not quite. I figure each tale gets read by myself about six times. I write in Word and use that programme’s spellchecker for the first three or so. Then it’s copy-and-paste to the website, which has a different set of spelling/grammar criteria. More red underlining. Reading it aloud is normally #5, then one final skim for confirmation.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

When we write our stories, I think it's important to keep in mind the medium of communication. The reader is absorbing the story through their eyes, and not through their ears. Listening to people speak is different from reading the same narration in quotes in writing.

I might listen to a toddler try speaking in mispronounced words or broken sentences, and I may patiently talk to them for five minutes. But I don't want to tediously read those same misspelled words or partial sentences, and work at trying to determine what the author meant. When I'm reading a story, I'm reading something written by an adult, and it should be clear and easy enough to understand for me to enjoy the experience.

This is why I don't like stories which use too many local idioms from regional dialects. A few idioms in a story can make it interesting to show some cultural differences. But if I have to stop to interpret every other sentence to understand a regional character's broken English, that's work. And I don't read stories here for work.

How is that different than reading Steinbeck, Hemingway, or Winston Groom? The medium of communication remains the written word.

Not that I'm comparing myself to any of these authors, but you seem to be implying that allowances should be made for the readers on Literotica where it comes to their ability to distinguish between narrative and dialogue. Where is this done mainstream literature?

 

[Lifestyle66]

How is that different than reading Steinbeck, Hemingway, or Winston Groom? The medium of communication remains the written word.

Not that I'm comparing myself to any of these authors, but you seem to be implying that allowances should be made for the readers on Literotica where it comes to their ability to distinguish between narrative and dialogue. Where is this done mainstream literature?

There's an audience for all types of literature, including those written with extensive regional dialects.

But keep in mind that what you write on the page isn't read through the ears. And use of too many real sounds (not words, but sounds often used by people when talking, "like , ummm, like, ahh, Oh, ... I don't know." can become tedious for the reader. In my story "A Gathering of Trolls", I had three of the characters using terms such as "like", 'man", and "dude" to make those characters sound deliberately cartoonish. I wanted them to sound like immature trolls.

I read one story here on LitE a few months ago in which the author made extensive use of a heavy Scottish dialect. Every sentence spoken by one of the main characters was tedious to read and re-read, with some idiomatic expressions only slowly becoming clear. I toughed through the whole story. But now warned ahead of time, I would skip that author's next one.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

But keep in mind that what you write on the page isn't read through the ears. And use of too many real sounds (not words, but sounds often used by people when talking, "like , ummm, like, ahh, Oh, ... I don't know." can become tedious for the reader. In my story "A Gathering of Trolls", I had three of the characters using terms such as "like", 'man", and "dude" to make those characters sound deliberately cartoonish. I wanted them to sound like immature trolls.

I understand your point, in general. However, this is an erotica-centric site and "sounds" play an intricate part in the writing of erotic stories. Moans, groans, and unintelligible words are standard dialogue during a lot of sex scenes.

On a similar note, in one of my stories, the main protagonist switches frequently between gangsta speak and professional businessman as the circumstances dictated. Readers had nothing but praise for the way that they were able to follow his moods by the way that he was speaking at the time and commented that it made the story better rather than worse.

In the end, I agree that there has to be a balance between a story reading like a comic book and a doctoral thesis, but authors need to be free to express their characters as they see them in their minds.