Proofreading

[Rob_Royale]

So let's talk about the harder part of writing, proofreading, self-editing, and grammar and spelling checks.
It seems to me that those things are the difference between a 4.0 rating and the coveted red H. I've read a lot of stuff lately that suffered greatly in those areas and it was brought up in their comments each time, but every story would have the same issues.
So what steps have you taken to improve these areas?
Or what keeps you from improving these areas? Rushing to submit for publishing maybe?
Personally, I start with Grammarly, a free downloadable grammar checker. It's not perfect, but it does catch a lot of stuff.
Secondly, if I'm going to sit down for an extended period of writing, I usually will completely reread the entire story. I'll look at each sentence, for word usage, punctuation, structure, and flow.
Lastly, after the story is done, I do four full story edits. The first edit is strictly for the sexy parts, seeing if they need any punching up. The second edit is to decide whether or not any particular part is needed in the story or if it's just there for flavor. Some flavor is fine, but I think that I usually overdo it. The third and fourth edits are just final proofreading, looking to catch anything I've missed on the way. I always do and still find one or two after publishing. I'm getting better though.
I'd love to hear you're thoughts on this.

 

[Seadog777]

This is an AMATEUR STIE!!!

People that "knock off a star" for mistakes are frakking knobheads.

They're just as bad as these loser trolls that 1-bomb any loving wives' story that isn't a complete BTB.

My wife and my neighbor (retired English professor) proofread my stories, (sister as well when she visits) and I used Microsoft Editor.

No story is ever perfect though, no matter who the author is or what they do.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I do editing and proofreading, and it shows.

Some people can't be bothered, a bunch of people enjoy their story anyway or they just want it out there, and publish anyway. The standard for being rejected is pretty damn low.

There's usually one or two errors in my stories but that's it.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

So let's talk about the harder part of writing, proofreading, self-editing, and grammar and spelling checks.
It seems to me that those things are the difference between a 4.0 rating and the coveted red H. I've read a lot of stuff lately that suffered greatly in those areas and it was brought up in their comments each time, but every story would have the same issues.
So what steps have you taken to improve these areas?
Or what keeps you from improving these areas? Rushing to submit for publishing maybe?
Personally, I start with Grammarly, a free downloadable grammar checker. It's not perfect, but it does catch a lot of stuff.
Secondly, if I'm going to sit down for an extended period of writing, I usually will completely reread the entire story. I'll look at each sentence, for word usage, punctuation, structure, and flow.
Lastly, after the story is done, I do four full story edits. The first edit is strictly for the sexy parts, seeing if they need any punching up. The second edit is to decide whether or not any particular part is needed in the story or if it's just there for flavor. Some flavor is fine, but I think that I usually overdo it. The third and fourth edits are just final proofreading, looking to catch anything I've missed on the way. I always do and still find one or two after publishing. I'm getting better though.
I'd love to hear you're thoughts on this.

I do it myself, even if I am non native English speaker. I don't think I'd let anyone else do the editing, as it would feel as if I am doing a chore, rather than writing for fun. Maybe that's just me. But I seriously doubt that grammar is what makes the difference between a 4.0 and 4.5, unless you really make a mess of it.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I self edit on a rolling basis. Before each writing session I read over the previous chunk, tweaking, fixing typos, getting the flow; then I'll write another 500 - 1000 words. Repeat.

I'll regularly change the font, font size, and colour, which catches most typos. Depending how long the story is, I'll have sent the WIP to my beta/editor several times, and rolled in whatever changes come from that.

When it's finished, the bulk of the edit has already been done, so I run spell-check, run a few "find" searches to find my known tics - such as, "and then", "just", and whatever word worm has stuck in my head this time. Then I publish, without much more fucking about.

I'm fortunate, 98% of my first draft goes final - I'm a stream of consciousness writer, and the first draft is always pretty solid. I'll change words, phrases, occasionally sentences, but that's about it. I read about the writers who agonise through their edits, with multiple drafts, cuts and rework. I can't do that, never have, never will.

This approach works for me, but having read these threads over the years, I think I'm unusual. I don't plan or outline stories either - pure pantser, me.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

I self edit on a rolling basis. Before each writing session I read over the previous chunk, tweaking, fixing typos, getting the flow; then I'll write another 500 - 1000 words. Repeat.

This is my approach as well.

My final "proofread" isn't me reading it, but having it read back to me by Word's text-to-speech feature. (If you don't have that feature, there are several websites that will do the same thing if you paste the text into them.)

I frequently hear things that my eyes and Grammarly have missed.

 

[Rob_Royale]

My final "proofread" isn't me reading it, but having it read back to me by Word's text-to-speech feature. (If you don't have that feature, there are several websites that will do the same thing if you paste the text into them.)

I frequently hear things that my eyes and Grammarly have missed.

That is an outstanding idea. I'll look into that. Thank you.

 

[ElectricBlue]

That is an outstanding idea. I'll look into that. Thank you.

Another trick I forgot to mention is to drop your copy into a word cloud, to visualise the most used words - very useful to see repetition.

I use this site: Worditout - create word clouds

 

[Lifestyle66]

What you may think is a great story can often irritate the next reader who depends upon punctuation to read the words in the right context. And different people have a different tolerance for misspelled words. So, readers taking 1 star off for such errors are being generous. They're not 1-bombing you but rather giving you a more honest score for your lack of effort to do it right.

I learned (after contacting volunteer editors) to pay attention to the MS Word indicators for misspelling and punctuation, which I had previously ignored in my haste to publish. Then I check via Word's Editor to go through the document to ensure I didn't miss any for "casual" writing (not Formal).

And as BobbyBrant said above, use a text-to-speech program to have even the mechanical voice read it back to you. You will HEAR when sentences sound odd and need to be rewritten. And you will hear the odd word that your eyes missed, because you read what you mind wanted to write. As I listen to my story being read back to me, I'm also thinking of many other ways to improve it.

I use "Speech2Go" (search their web site for the lower cost version at about $40 without the extra voices), which allows me to copy and paste my Word story into it to produce an MP3 audio file. I listen to it via my cellphone and earbuds as I do other work around the house.

 

[SimonDoom]

For me, the enemy of good editing and proofing is my eagerness to get the story published. Usually, by the time I'm done with a story, I feel really done with it and ready to move on. I sometimes rush it.

I am solid on grammar, punctuation, and spelling, but I have a funny habit when I type of unconsciously typing the wrong homonym. I'll type "one" when I intend "won" or "waste" when I intend "waist." These are errors that proofing apps often do not catch. I have to read very carefully to catch them. I try to proof as I go, which helps, but every single time some errors get through. I've noticed that readers often catch them, too.

 

[Northstar4695]

I was as always miss a mistake or two and sometimes get a comment about it. It's fair to rate and comment based on editing I think.

 

[Blind_Justice]

Having a second pair of eyes is an invaluable help.

 

[Lifestyle66]

There are authors who believe their stories should start with a 5-star rate, and anyone rating less than that are "bombing" the story.

Those readers taking 1-star off for misspelled words, poor grammar, or punctuation are, in all fairness, rating that story relative to others where the other authors put extra effort to avoid such errors. They might "like" the story with a 4-star, but they can't "love" it with 5 for the lack of effort or the haste to publish.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't agree with the perspective, "This is a free site, so people shouldn't care whether stories are proofread well or not." I'm tolerant of some mistakes, but if they are too frequent they significantly diminish my enjoyment of the story. It's fair to indicate as much in the way I vote or comment on the story. Some authors DO pay attention to things like that, and the result is that their stories are more enjoyable, and they should be rewarded for the extra effort.

 

[GrantBricksly]

I try to re-read it myself, but honestly I find myself skimming through it, because I know what it says. I know that's horrible. It sounds like I can't be bothered to read my own work. But that is just the way my mind works. So, I have my wife read it. And I have her read it twice. The first time, just to read it. This one is to gauge her reaction. If it turns her on, gets her excited, then I have a good story. Then, the second time, I have her go through proof reading.

I don't often have a ton of spelling/grammar issues. (I'm sure I have some.) I tend to catch them myself as I am writing. My biggest issues are over using comma's. And sometimes she'll help me reword something that sounds a little awkward.

I love the idea of using a text-to-speech program also. I may look into that.

As for the whole "This is an amateur site" argument, I wholeheartedly disagree. A few mistakes here and there is no big deal, it happens in all writing (I've found them in major published authors). But when there are constant spelling errors, or grammar issues. Or the sentence structure is odd, it is hard to read. It is hard to follow, and it distracts from the story. Eventually I am no longer immersed in the world you are trying to build, and I am just trying to decipher the words on the screen. So, amateur or not, if you want me to enjoy your story, you need to put forth the effort in order for me to be capable to do so.

 

[Edey]

I'm not a native English speaker, and I always search for betareaders and editors, but.... it's not easy!
I struggle to find such people. I would love to have every story edited perfectly, but it's just not possible.
I'm actually an editor myself ( in my native language) - and I do understand pretty well how much of a change can a good editor makes but it's just really rare to find such a person.

As for the whole "This is an amateur site" argument, I wholeheartedly disagree. A few mistakes here and there is no big deal, it happens in all writing (I've found them in major published authors). But when there are constant spelling errors, or grammar issues. Or the sentence structure is odd, it is hard to read. It is hard to follow, and it distracts from the story. Eventually I am no longer immersed in the world you are trying to build, and I am just trying to decipher the words on the screen. So, amateur or not, if you want me to enjoy your story, you need to put forth the effort in order for me to be capable to do so.

I often hear from people I use a very weird word order (in my native language the word order is flexible). But should I stop writing? I love it, and if that means I receive some 1star, well, so be it. I would love to always have help from editors but as you can see in my file, it's hard.
I literally checked 50 people, wrote to them, and with 5 of them had some kind of cooperation.


It's the lower part of the list, and only shady responded from that part.
There's only so much we can do, we (non-natives) can either quit writing in English or... risk is... the infamous one-star-bombing

 

[GrantBricksly]

I'm not a native English speaker, and I always search for betareaders and editors, but.... it's not easy!
I struggle to find such people. I would love to have every story edited perfectly, but it's just not possible.
I'm actually an editor myself ( in my native language) - and I do understand pretty well how much of a change can a good editor makes but it's just really rare to find such a person.



I often hear from people I use a very weird word order (in my native language the word order is flexible). But should I stop writing? I love it, and if that means I receive some 1star, well, so be it. I would love to always have help from editors but as you can see in my file, it's hard.
I literally checked 50 people, wrote to them, and with 5 of them had some kind of cooperation.
View attachment 2194967

It's the lower part of the list, and only shady responded from that part.
There's only so much we can do, we (non-natives) can either quit writing in English or... risk is... the infamous one-star-bombing

I certainly would never tell anyone to quit writing. God knows I love it, and While I hope that I am as good as I think I am, I know I can always use some improvement.

I hope that my statement did not give any sort of implication that I would want anyone to stop doing what they love.
When there are lots of questionable word choices or word order choices, I for one, choose simply to make a comment (I try to be constructive and kind at all times) or simply move on.

As for the issue of finding editors willing to help, I've never tried to find an editor. I've thought about it a few times though. I did not realize how difficult it was.

I think the most important thing for a writer is that they always strive to be better. And it sounds like you do exactly that. So I give you props for that.

 

[Edey]

I certainly would never tell anyone to quit writing. God knows I love it, and While I hope that I am as good as I think I am, I know I can always use some improvement.

I hope that my statement did not give any sort of implication that I would want anyone to stop doing what they love.
When there are lots of questionable word choices or word order choices, I for one, choose simply to make a comment (I try to be constructive and kind at all times) or simply move on.

As for the issue of finding editors willing to help, I've never tried to find an editor. I've thought about it a few times though. I did not realize how difficult it was.

I think the most important thing for a writer is that they always strive to be better. And it sounds like you do exactly that. So I give you props for that.

it's just a bit sad, that finding editor is so hard - when simultaneously people judge harshly grammatical errors... and receive bad voting regardless of plot quality.
I agree, there are people with very low standards, and they publish pretty much everything with typos and basic errors, but there are some who really try :/

And I tried to find an editor for each and every one of my stories.
For only one of my stories "Lost bet" - I sent mails to all of these people, you can see below. None took the story.
So it's just depressing - because I kinda hit the glass ceiling with that.
I just can't do any better, I'm an adult and I don't learn as quickly as I would want.

I even pay for grammatical add-on to correct more than Google doc and Word can correct, but it's also limited as add-ons and Word simply does not understand the sense of the sentence and the meaning of words(if they are properly used).
This kind of "amateur sites" are only places where non-natives can publish, honestly. But as you can see, we will always be in disadvantage.

 

[GrantBricksly]

it's just a bit sad, that finding editor is so hard - when simultaneously people judge harshly grammatical errors... and receive bad voting regardless of plot quality.
I agree, there are people with very low standards, and they publish pretty much everything with typos and basic errors, but there are some who really try :/

And I tried to find an editor for each and every one of my stories.
For only one of my stories "Lost bet" - I sent mails to all of these people, you can see below. None took the story.
So it's just depressing - because I kinda hit the glass ceiling with that.
I just can't do any better, I'm an adult and I don't learn as quickly as I would want.

I even pay for grammatical add-on to correct more than Google doc and Word can correct, but it's also limited as add-ons and Word simply does not understand the sense of the sentence and the meaning of words(if they are properly used).
This kind of "amateur sites" are only places where non-natives can publish, honestly. But as you can see, we will always be in disadvantage.

You are right, that is sad. I wish that wasn't the case. I wonder if everyone has this much of a problem finding an editor?


Not that you should have to do this, but have you tried adding a notice at the top of your story, that explains that you are not a native English speaker, and ask the reader for some leeway. That might help out a little with any bad votes/comments.

 

[Paul_Chance]

I learned a good trick from a friend of mine in the PR business (she writes executive level press releases).

Read your writing backwards starting with the last sentence and ending with the first. This forces your brain to concentrate on each sentence.

I'd also recommend using any of your automated readers, as was mentioned earlier. This really helps with the narrative flow of your writing.

 

[Edey]

You are right, that is sad. I wish that wasn't the case. I wonder if everyone has this much of a problem finding an editor?


Not that you should have to do this, but have you tried adding a notice at the top of your story, that explains that you are not a native English speaker, and ask the reader for some leeway. That might help out a little with any bad votes/comments.

I usually do


Answering to your question. Probably, if an editor sees that the person asking for help is non-native, it can be discouraging - and to be honest, I'm not surprised. It's just more work! These people do if for free, so I'm not trying to dis them. On top of that, I write stories in Gay Male and Transgender & Crossdresser categories so that narrows down the pool of editors. That also can be a problem.
Oh, well. It is what it is. Maybe I whine (or whinge-british) too much about it anyway!
I'll continue to try to do the best I can.

 

[oggbashan]

I use Grammarly and Word 365's editor. But I write (and check) in British English. Anon has just suggested I should use Grammarly and Word's editor because he found numerous errors.

I think he must be using them in American English, not British.

 

[alohadave]

it's just a bit sad, that finding editor is so hard - when simultaneously people judge harshly grammatical errors... and receive bad voting regardless of plot quality.
I agree, there are people with very low standards, and they publish pretty much everything with typos and basic errors, but there are some who really try :/

And I tried to find an editor for each and every one of my stories.
For only one of my stories "Lost bet" - I sent mails to all of these people, you can see below. None took the story.
So it's just depressing - because I kinda hit the glass ceiling with that.
I just can't do any better, I'm an adult and I don't learn as quickly as I would want.

I even pay for grammatical add-on to correct more than Google doc and Word can correct, but it's also limited as add-ons and Word simply does not understand the sense of the sentence and the meaning of words(if they are properly used).
This kind of "amateur sites" are only places where non-natives can publish, honestly. But as you can see, we will always be in disadvantage.

Are you sending messages to random people or are these people on the Volunteer Editor list?

There is also the Editor forum where you can request someone to work on your story.

 

[Edey]

I use Grammarly and Word 365's editor. But I write (and check) in British English. Anon has just suggested I should use Grammarly and Word's editor because he found numerous errors.

I think he must be using them in American English, not British.

I use LanguageTool premium add-on. It's because I heard some critique of Grammarly, but to be honest, I don't know what's better.

 

[Edey]

Are you sending messages to random people or are these people on the Volunteer Editor list?

There is also the Editor forum where you can request someone to work on your story.

Well, heh, definitely not some random people
These were people from editor list with Transgender & Crossdresser category checked. (July 2022)
And yes, I asked 3xtimes on Volunteer forum. No one responded, you can check my posts there (Except with some advices)
One story actually was 2400 words. Super short.
Nobody wanted to help.