Pro-Kevorkian

[Image]

if you call me that, does it mean you'll fuck my brains out?

Let's try it

What's funny is I purposely have not a clue about politics. I don't even know what a liberal really is! Fuckin' and lunatic I could discourse about but I'm not swayed politically by any media...

I speak from the gut and heart...

 

[cjh]

Let's try it

What's funny is I purposely have not a clue about politics. I don't even know what a liberal really is! Fuckin' and lunatic I could discourse about but I'm not swayed politically by any media...

I speak from the gut and heart...

you may be apolitical, but you have consistent values.

they speak well of your innards.

 

[Image]

you may be apolitical, but you have consistent values.

they speak well of your innards.

My innards have always served me well. I appreciate you saying that

One wonders where our true ideals must come from then... Nature/nurture? I only know what I feel is right and wrong.

 

[JustSkye]

I'm wondering if there have been any members here who have suffered cancer at all...
Or watched someone die agonizingly, that could say that they would want them to suffer through and let things happen 'naturally'.

How does it make one feel to know that a family member is jacking their body with some of the harshest chemicals known to man, causing nausea, violent headaches (sometimes), having teeth fallout, hair gone, weight loss, amongst other things, as well as having to be cranked on morphine just to get through the day to be with those who asked them to fight, begged them to stay, for a few weeks or months even, knowing full well they would be dying anyway?

When in fact, it would have been kinder to let them go the way they wished, in less pain, happily, and with dignity and doing it the way they wanted...

I wouldn't be so selfish.

 

[johnsonsjohn]

How can the medical corporation...i mean profession, make all that money if they cannot take all your wealth in last few months?

 

[Image]

There comes a time when it doesn't matter how much a family member begged nor what deal they made with god, the life is over as they knew it and it's time to move on.

For both parties concerned...

You know? It occurs to me that as a society we have not learned how to die. Sure, we have our rituals or rights of passage but have not learned how to accept death as a natural part of the cycle...

 

[Image]

How can the medical corporation...i mean profession, make all that money if they cannot take all your wealth in last few months?

Those 20$ aspirins sure add up

 

[JustSkye]

There comes a time when it doesn't matter how much a family member begged nor what deal they made with god, the life is over as they knew it and it's time to move on.

For both parties concerned...

You know? It occurs to me that as a society we have not learned how to die. Sure, we have our rituals or rights of passage but have not learned how to accept death as a natural part of the cycle...

you're right. we do everything humanly possible to stay young looking and stave off death everyday. Heaven forbid we accept growing old gracefully, as it should be. Society is all about pushing youth and staying younger longer and longer.

 

[johnsonsjohn]

Those 20$ aspirins sure add up

Well, they got leave some for the jackals, I mean lawyers, to fight over in probate... oh yeah what left over after taxes...

 

[Image]

you're right. we do everything humanly possible to stay young looking and stave off death everyday. Heaven forbid we accept growing old gracefully, as it should be. Society is all about pushing youth and staying younger longer and longer.

That is a very good point, Skye!

 

[JustSkye]

That is a very good point, Skye!

I try

 

[medjay]

How does it make one feel to know that a family member is jacking their body with some of the harshest chemicals known to man, causing nausea, violent headaches (sometimes), having teeth fallout, hair gone, weight loss, amongst other things, as well as having to be cranked on morphine just to get through the day to be with those who asked them to fight, begged them to stay, for a few weeks or months even, knowing full well they would be dying anyway?

When in fact, it would have been kinder to let them go the way they wished, in less pain, happily, and with dignity and doing it the way they wanted...

I wouldn't be so selfish.

Philosophically, robbing a person of thier right to die is just as immoral and intrusive as robbing a person of their life.

 

[Image]

Philosophically, robbing a person of thier right to die is just as immoral and intrusive as robbing a person of their life.

Succinct and well put...

I hesitated to stray a bit from the specific subject and I'm glad you brought it up.

I don't advocate suicide and I've never been suicidal myself but I really believe it's up to every individual whether to end their own life or not and pick their own time, terminal or not...

Because when all is said and done, we are all terminal...

 

[medjay]

I don't advocate suicide and I've never been suicidal myself but I really believe it's up to every individual whether to end their own life or not and pick their own time, terminal or not...

Because when all is said and done, we are all terminal...

Considering that death is the only part of our existence that is absolutely certain, it would stand to reason it should be the one thing that we have absolute individual control over.

No other person should be able to make decisions about the manner of your death.

 

[JustSkye]

Philosophically, robbing a person of thier right to die is just as immoral and intrusive as robbing a person of their life.

indeed
Well said, Medjay!

 

[Image]

Considering that death is the only part of our existence that is absolutely certain, it would stand to reason it should be the one thing that we have absolute individual control over.

No other person should be able to make decisions about the manner of your death.

Namaste...


Seemed appropriate.

 

[medjay]

You know? It occurs to me that as a society we have not learned how to die. Sure, we have our rituals or rights of passage but have not learned how to accept death as a natural part of the cycle...

I think our fear of death leads to a general disrespect for the personal nature of death.

One of the reasons I avoid attending funerals. Such services are merely pity parties for the living and the grieving. Also, putting a preserved, fully-clothed and heavily made-up corpse on display has always struck me as morbid, selfish, clinging-type activity that does nothing to celebrate the life of the departed or offer any serious meditation on death as the ultimate spiritual change.

Actually, this clinging behavior is the number one cause of suffering when it comes to human mortality.

 

[Image]

I think our fear of death leads to a general disrespect for the personal nature of death.

One of the reasons I avoid attending funerals. Such services are merely pity parties for the living and the grieving. Also, putting a preserved, fully-clothed and heavily made-up corpse on display has always struck me as morbid, selfish, clinging-type activity that does nothing to celebrate the life of the departed or offer any serious meditation on death as the ultimate spiritual change.

Actually, this clinging behavior is the number one cause of suffering when it comes to human mortality.

And we have to wonder who is responsible for that fear... Is it just a natural fear of the unknown? Or has it been ingrained or conditioned in us to fear that death without salvation is a literal living hell?

When one door closes...

 

[olivefun]

I think our fear of death leads to a general disrespect for the personal nature of death.

One of the reasons I avoid attending funerals. Such services are merely pity parties for the living and the grieving. Also, putting a preserved, fully-clothed and heavily made-up corpse on display has always struck me as morbid, selfish, clinging-type activity that does nothing to celebrate the life of the departed or offer any serious meditation on death as the ultimate spiritual change.

Actually, this clinging behavior is the number one cause of suffering when it comes to human mortality.

I go to funerals of people that I love.
We each carry a bit of that person with us and short of him being alive, this is the biggest collection of those bits we can conjure.

I love being there and sharing a ritual with those that, like me care for the person. It is a celebration of the person they were. I love to hear the variety of stories that come out at the funerals.

I have recently put my mom into a nursing home.

There are lots of people that are miserable and drooling in these places, having lost the ability to communicate, having no regular visitors.

They get over-medicated, fed and watered and their loved ones are saving pennies to pay for the care. Luckily we found an excellent place for my mom. She is happy, or appears to be. The thousands of dollars we must cough up every month to keep her engaged and safe is difficult when she isn't sure our names.

She was a brilliant woman.
She would hate to see herself like this and I have no question whether she'd choose suicide right now. I would miss her for sure.
I understand she's likely going to live another 10-15 years with this, as we will too.

It is never an easy solution, we visit her often, but really what is her quality of life anyway?

 

[mcopado]

You know? It occurs to me that as a society we have not learned how to die. Sure, we have our rituals or rights of passage but have not learned how to accept death as a natural part of the cycle...

So true....

Years ago I helped put on a three day grief retreat for Hospice Nurses....I used a great model based on the 3 day grief ceremony of the Dagara tribe of Burkina Faso Africa. It's described in detail in Malidoma Some's book Of water and spirit; Ritual, Magic, and intiation in the life of an African Shaman

Basically it is a 3 day affair of the whole community...and every emotion of the grief process is allowed to run it's course...anger, sorrow, etc...they don't move to the next one until it is clear that everyone who needs to has gone through the certain stage...

People wail, people break things, towards the end after all those emotions have been spent...they celebrate.

I've used a similiar model with various groups since then; creating a safe container to release all the emotions that are pent up or stuffed down becasue of our socitie's fear of death and of emotions...

What typically happens in these retreats is that an individual begins pouring out an emotion about a specif individual or event....then starts bringing up other things too...The puppy that got hit by a car when they were 12, their 20 year old divorce....it's like once the cork is released on one thing, once permission is given...then all this stuff from deep inside comes out...

It's very freeing...

 

[medjay]

She would hate to see herself like this and I have no question whether she'd choose suicide right now. I would miss her for sure.
I understand she's likely going to live another 10-15 years with this, as we will too.

I'm a bit confused. . . Are you saying you have no question she would or wouldn't choose suicide? If she would, how do you rationalize denying her of that? Because you would miss her?

 

[Image]

So true....

Years ago I helped put on a three day grief retreat for Hospice Nurses....I used a great model based on the 3 day grief ceremony of the Dagara tribe of Burkina Faso Africa. It's described in detail in Malidoma Some's book Of water and spirit; Ritual, Magic, and intiation in the life of an African Shaman

Basically it is a 3 day affair of the whole community...and every emotion of the grief process is allowed to run it's course...anger, sorrow, etc...they don't move to the next one until it is clear that everyone who needs to has gone through the certain stage...

People wail, people break things, towards the end after all those emotions have been spent...they celebrate.

I've used a similiar model with various groups since then; creating a safe container to release all the emotions that are pent up or stuffed down becasue of our socitie's fear of death and of emotions...

What typically happens in these retreats is that an individual begins pouring out an emotion about a specif individual or event....then starts bringing up other things too...The puppy that got hit by a car when they were 12, their 20 year old divorce....it's like once the cork is released on one thing, once permission is given...then all this stuff from deep inside comes out...

It's very freeing...

I believe it... We spend most of our lives trying to deny our emotions to conform and when we're allowed to express them it's like a boulder's been moved in the stream.

Indigenous cultures seem to handle death better than we...

 

[mcopado]

I believe it... We spend most of our lives trying to deny our emotions to conform and when we're allowed to express them it's like a boulder's been moved in the stream.

Indigenous cultures seem to handle death better than we...

yeah...I've learned more about authentic healing spiritual expressions from a lot of cultures that our society calls "primitive" Aboriginals, native American's...It's funny we call them primitive yet they have a depth of understanding about Birth, Sex, and death that we could learn from....

 

[olivefun]

I'm a bit confused. . . Are you saying you have no question she would or wouldn't choose suicide? If she would, how do you rationalize denying her of that? Because you would miss her?

She would definately choose to die than live this way.
She will live with Alzheimer's for the next 10-15 years.
Those of us that love her will live with this for the next 10-15 years too.
Turns out the drugs she's taking for the alzheimer's is weakening her kidney, and the doctor is trying to get us to agree to reduce the medication so she can live longer and not die of kidney failure.

Hard choices.
If there was a legal way to assist her suicide, I am sure none of her loved ones would be against this.

My father died a few months ago of cancer.
He was in tremendous pain and discomfort when he passed. If he could have lived another second, another minute, another day, I think he would have. Just the same, he was prepared for death when it came. His last words actually were that he loves me. I felt very honored to spend time with him at the end learning about his life, hearing his stories and concentrating on remembering them.

Dignity and respect.

 

[medjay]

Hard choices.
If there was a legal way to assist her suicide, I am sure none of her loved ones would be against this.

I understand.

I also think there comes a time when the word of law ought to take a backseat to family matters such as these.

But I won't presume to judge your family situation.

Best wishes.