Pro-Kevorkian

[mcopado]

He is way ahead of his time or maybe just born too late... I suspect that assisted suicide was a long ago practice.

I'm not sure...but I wouldn't be surprised...I somewhat remember looking into the history of the churche's views on suicide when I was dealing with my dad...I may have posted something on my S & S thread I'll have to look...like so many of the churche's views on things, like celibacy...we think it's always been that way and find out some things are only a few hundred years old...

i'll look...

I missed the interview...so I'm hoping it will be on you tube tomorrow...

This is one of the best clearing houses for info....after I sent my international blurt to all the email addys I could find of local congressmen and senators I hit all the right to die groups too...The president of this one...and the one in Oregon wrote me back...

The world federation of right to die societies

 

[Image]

If folks are bent on dying, they should do it themselves. I'm not at all interested in a society that says it's a good thing to help people end their lives. That's a very slippery slope I don't even want to begin to go down.

But they would do it themselves, ultimately...

Help in the area of spiritual counseling, along the lines of their own beliefs; counseling as to the medical aspects, etc. would not be back alley;

And most importantly, they wouldn't do it ashamed because of the restrictions of modern day religious thoughts...

 

[Matthew Craig]

Indeed. Out of selfishness and how much they would miss them, rather than thinking of all the pain and suffering the person is doing just to live day by day.

It's not selfish at all. Committing suicide is the selfish thing.

 

[Arctic_Fox]

That is not my experience. I have seen many people who underwent medical treatments to extend their life for a few months or weeks, only out of reguard for their families feelings. Left to themselves, they would have preferred to die and forgo another few months of pain with no end in sight.

In real life situations, most famlies force a loved one to endure as much as medically possible.

The reason I answered to this thread in the first place, was because it took me back to the Terri Schiavo case. People were saying she was already dead, but I have another opinion on that idea. I think if he/she moves, breaths, digests liquids, makes noise of any sort, then that person is alive and no one but her should have the choice but her.

I don't think people in these sorts of conditions should become disposable human beings, just because it takes the responsibility off of a spouse or other relatives connected to the individual in question

 

[JazzManJim]

But they would do it themselves, ultimately...

Help in the area of spiritual counseling, along the lines of their own beliefs; counseling as to the medical aspects, etc. would not be back alley;

And most importantly, they wouldn't do it ashamed because of the restrictions of modern day religious thoughts...

Then let them do it themselves. I do not see it as healthy for a society to help them along. We encourage death well enough these days.

 

[Image]

Then let them do it themselves. I do not see it as healthy for a society to help them along. We encourage death well enough these days.

But don't you think, since it's going to happen anyway, that it shouldn't be attached to shame and stigma? That if we are a loving, civil kind of humanity that we should offer a less judgemental counsel?

 

[JazzManJim]

But don't you think, since it's going to happen anyway, that it shouldn't be attached to shame and stigma? That if we are a loving, civil kind of humanity that we should offer a less judgemental counsel?

People do plenty of things every day that we don't like but we know will happen anyway. That doesn't mean that we should help them do them.

Image, the problem with being a "loving, civil kind of humanity" is that we can never be sure whose version of loving and civil we're going to get. Once upon a time, not all that long ago, there was a real movement here and elsewhere to kill deficient children on the grounds that doing so would be loving and civil. You never know when your existence is going to prove inconvenient to the sort of society envisioned by the people in charge.

The reality is that humans are not loving and civil at our hearts. Left to our own devices we will be brutal, selfish, and cruel. We have thousands of years of history to back that up. The best we can do is to drive some stakes down to help anchor ourselves on a few bedrock principles. I think that "life is precious so don't spend it cheaply" ought to be one of them. If you kick that stake sideways, it doesn't take much for someone else to come along and kick it all the way down.

 

[mcopado]

But they would do it themselves, ultimately...

Help in the area of spiritual counseling, along the lines of their own beliefs; counseling as to the medical aspects, etc. would not be back alley;

And most importantly, they wouldn't do it ashamed because of the restrictions of modern day religious thoughts...

Look into the process required for a sexual realignment surgery in a major american hospital, then amp the checks and balances, Psychological and medical assesments, support, therapy for family members, spiritual/grief counselling similiar to what's provided by hospice...medical support to make sure the person is truly incurable and no longer has a quality of life, makes sure the legal letter of the law in any given municipality is followed-multiply it all 10 fold but compressed into about 6 months time....That was what Jack's vision for it was....

He even if I recall had some pretty informative slides showing the whole process and what a typical compassionate care facility would look like...

We're not talking about a walk in off the street or dump granma at the front door and 10 minutes later you're pushing up daises thing here ladies and gent's...

but a supportive and dignified thing of last resort for people who have no quality of life....

not too different from my father's last 6 months...he practically begged me for an out...I came close to doing it too...

I even dreamned I put a bullet in his head one night...

 

[Image]

The reality is that humans are not loving and civil at our hearts. Left to our own devices we will be brutal, selfish, and cruel. We have thousands of years of history to back that up. The best we can do is to drive some stakes down to help anchor ourselves on a few bedrock principles. I think that "life is precious so don't spend it cheaply" ought to be one of them. If you kick that stake sideways, it doesn't take much for someone else to come along and kick it all the way down.

And that's where I guess we differ. I don't believe that humans are brutal, selfish and cruel "at our hearts". I believe that we've been conditioned that way over the past several thousand years as you pointed out but I don't believe we are born with that cruelty in our soul...

Your bedrock principle is a good one and true but I don't think that anyone in a dire medical state and thinking lucidly would appreciate anything about their decision to be cheaply spent. What an awful way to say goodbye...

 

[JustSkye]

And that's where I guess we differ. I don't believe that humans are brutal, selfish and cruel "at our hearts". I believe that we've been conditioned that way over the past several thousand years as you pointed out but I don't believe we are born with that cruelty in our soul...

Your bedrock principle is a good one and true but I don't think that anyone in a dire medical state and thinking lucidly would appreciate anything about their decision to be cheaply spent. What an awful way to say goodbye...

Indeed and well said.

 

[Wrong Element]

That is not my experience. I have seen many people who underwent medical treatments to extend their life for a few months or weeks, only out of reguard for their families feelings. Left to themselves, they would have preferred to die and forgo another few months of pain with no end in sight.

In real life situations, most famlies force a loved one to endure as much as medically possible.

Does this really take place a lot? Having been through a situation like this very recently, I can say that once a decision was made to end treatment, it was unanimously supported, or at least not vocally opposed.

I think there's a middle ground between forcing people to accept heroic and almost certainly futile measures to prolong the final, painful stages of a terminal illness; and a doctor actively stepping in to end someone's life, even with "consent." I'm comfortable in that middle ground.

 

[JazzManJim]

And that's where I guess we differ. I don't believe that humans are brutal, selfish and cruel "at our hearts". I believe that we've been conditioned that way over the past several thousand years as you pointed out but I don't believe we are born with that cruelty in our soul...

Your bedrock principle is a good one and true but I don't think that anyone in a dire medical state and thinking lucidly would appreciate anything about their decision to be cheaply spent. What an awful way to say goodbye...

It's not a tough thing for which to find evidence.

Watch a toddler.

Indeed you are right. I doubt were I in that situation I would appreciate the principle much either. That doesn't make the principle any less important nor sound. That's the problem with holding firm to one of them. It's not easy sometimes.

 

[Image]

It's not a tough thing for which to find evidence.

Watch a toddler.

Indeed you are right. I doubt were I in that situation I would appreciate the principle much either. That doesn't make the principle any less important nor sound. That's the problem with holding firm to one of them. It's not easy sometimes.

Again, the toddler, conditioning not innate...

You're resistant to change... Holding firm to principles that are outdated only makes one a martyr and martyrs by their very nature only live as long as they have people believing...

~ The times they are a changin' ~

 

[mcopado]

Again, the toddler, conditioning not innate...

You're resistant to change... Holding firm to principles that are outdated only makes one a martyr and martyrs by their very nature only live as long as they have people believing...

~ The times they are a changin' ~

{{{IMAGE}}}

Want an idea what it is like to have no quality of life...to pretty much be a zombie in a wheel chair, shitting and pissing in your pants because you can't communicate to anyone, because you had a stroke 3 years before while your only survivng son was away at seminary, and now you can't write or speak a six word sentance without the last 3 being garbled because of the aphasia from the stroke....can't eat and have to be fed from a tube, can't read because you have macular degeneration, be so deaf form working in the coal mines at 16 years old, then being a machine gun seargant during wwII before anyone thought to give you earplugs, that there's nothing that can be done...Can't lift you're right arm because of a snipers bullet that shatterred your shoulder, AND that you fell and frqactured the arm right below the fused joint....Then 8 weeks after that after you've healed from that in a hospital and a nursing home that had to be paid for out of pocket because of a fucked up insurance system.....Then you fall again and fracture your hip this time then get a hospital borne infection from it.....which ultimately shuts down your kidneys....

Tell me you'd want to live like that for a minute more???

And tell me if you were their son and they were looking up at you pleading for release....Tell me if then you too wouldn't think compassionate, medically assisted suicide was the right, thing to do....

Think I'm making this up? That was my dad, less then 2 years ago...

Wanna read what a typical day in the life of Revvy was back then...And why he had to give up full time church ministry for awhile (then take another non ministerial job to make up for about 60 thousand dollars lost income for a year and a half or so....

Before you think this is an intellectual exercise in typical GB fashion, to just say what you think... read a day in my life...or more importantly my the 87 year old late father's

https://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=15448428&postcount=1081

Or talk to me about the pm I received from a fellow litser who did for her their loved one what I didn't have the guts to do....

 

[Le Jacquelope]

That is not my experience. I have seen many people who underwent medical treatments to extend their life for a few months or weeks, only out of reguard for their families feelings. Left to themselves, they would have preferred to die and forgo another few months of pain with no end in sight.

In real life situations, most famlies force a loved one to endure as much as medically possible.

How much do you want to bet that with physician assisted suicide being legal, many families will try to coerce a loved one into committing suicide to save on medical bills.

The motivation: most of the money you spend on medical care is in the last years of your life.

 

[NaughtyLil1]

The reason I answered to this thread in the first place, was because it took me back to the Terri Schiavo case. People were saying she was already dead, but I have another opinion on that idea. I think if he/she moves, breaths, digests liquids, makes noise of any sort, then that person is alive and no one but her should have the choice but her.

I don't think people in these sorts of conditions should become disposable human beings, just because it takes the responsibility off of a spouse or other relatives connected to the individual in question

Quality of life is not an issue for you?

I was disappointed, but not suprised that he was convicted. I admire the man. I think with carefully thought out guidelines, it should be an option for those who fit the criteria.

 

[bronzeage]

How much do you want to bet that with physician assisted suicide being legal, many families will try to coerce a loved one into committing suicide to save on medical bills.

The motivation: most of the money you spend on medical care is in the last years of your life.

The actual statistic is of all the money spent on medical care, 50% will be spent in the last six months of your life.

 

[mcopado]

The actual statistic is of all the money spent on medical care, 50% will be spent in the last six months of your life.

Yeah...because of a stupid beauracratic screw up we had to private pay my dad for one month in a rehab/nursing home...for thirty days.....I couldn't believe the price....between 3 and 5 grand...and half of that month he was shuffled back and forth to the hospital...I think he stayed in the place all of 2 weeks...think we got the money back from the nursing home?

 

[alabama]

This might sound a bit crude. But here goes.

I do not understand why when you have a pet, who you love as a family member, is ill and in pain, you take him to the vet the be euthanized. But legally another human cannot help another human euthanize themselves. How backwards is that?

Recently my Father had to watch his Father Figure die a long and painful death caused by illness. This man was the nicest man you would ever meet, never did wrong by anyone. His last 6 months alive were HELL. Yet he had to suffer through it and eventually quit dialysis to basically kill himself, which it did. He didn't have another option. It was awful.

But a few months ago, one of our dogs had to be put down. The cortizone shots weren't working anymore. He had stopped eating. Everyone said their goodbyes and he is now pain free. It was easy(no emotionally easy), peaceful and no one had to do anything :illegal:.

By giving people the right to die on their terms with the help of professionals, it could be done safely and legally. The same right we give to our animals. I just don't get it.

 

[JazzManJim]

Again, the toddler, conditioning not innate...

You're resistant to change... Holding firm to principles that are outdated only makes one a martyr and martyrs by their very nature only live as long as they have people believing...

~ The times they are a changin' ~

Entirely untrue.

Infants and toddlers are innately selfish. They display selfish and harsh behavior regardless of who brings them up or where. Don't believe me? Take away a toddler's toy - any toddler. See how long it takes before you get a full-fledged tantrum.

I am resistant to changing what actually works.

The principle is not outdated. Again, we have millenia of history to use as our guide here. When we keep a very high regard for life as a supporting pillar of our society, our society is stronger. You'll have to show me where a society that embraced death continued to survive for very long.

I'm not saying that we can't apply leniency in specific cases. We do that with the law all the time. We do not necessarily judge a man harshly who steals to feed his family because we understand exigent circumstances. That does not mean, however, that we entirely change how we think about stealing. We allow that a law, or a principle, must have some room for flexibility but that doesn't mean we throw it out entirely because we find a few stories that prick our hearts.

 

[Arctic_Fox]

Quality of life is not an issue for you?

I was disappointed, but not suprised that he was convicted. I admire the man. I think with carefully thought out guidelines, it should be an option for those who fit the criteria.

Quality; I think that should be defined. If someone is in the same condition as the T Schiavo but seemed to enjoy company and music being played and that's all. Then what's the harm of letting that happy individual in their own little world live?

 

[garbage can]

Can't wait to see his interview on 60 Minutes tonight.

Too bad he had to suffer for all those years when all he wanted to do was help ease the suffering of others. And sincerely wish in his last days he has his own pain eased as well...

I hope his philosophy is embraced by the newer generation. I think it is... I'm so hopeful about kids these days. It took a couple of generations but it's finally coming of age.

The people who helped put him in jail so many years ago are slowly but surely being phased out and more progressive ideas are being born into this world by the day...

So what's your philosophy?

I hate to agree with you, since you're a fuckin' lunatic liberal.

My Brother in law was just diagnosed with ALS.(Lou gerhigs disease), severely debilitating........ in case's like this, we need Dr Kevorkian........he (my brother in law) really needs to die now......

 

[Arctic_Fox]

I hate to agree with you, since you're a fuckin' lunatic liberal.

My Brother in law was just diagnosed with ALS.(Lou gerhigs disease), severely debilitating........ in case's like this, we need Dr Kevorkian........he (my brother in law) really needs to die now......

I have a cousin with ALS she's in a support wheel chair now. But before the disease progressed she was a musican trying to raise funds for equipment and research. Here she is;

http://www.elizabethsconcertofhope.com/

 

[GeorgeWBush]

I wish there would have been someone around to help my grandfather when he was dieing oc cancer, he suffered for 6 months, he went from a strong healthy man to a weak and unable to walk by the time he died.

I have left a letter for my brother to have something done incase i am in a position of not being able to do it myself, i do not want to be hooked up to machines for years or whatever, i just want to die when i am ready, but hopfully not for many many years.

 

[MinkSoul]

Quality; I think that should be defined. If someone is in the same condition as the T Schiavo but seemed to enjoy company and music being played and that's all. Then what's the harm of letting that happy individual in their own little world live?

Did you know that her brain had atrofied(sp)? There wasn't anyone in there.

If there is someone in there, they should be helped. She wasn't.