Prayer in schools?
- Thread starter Topher
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PHANTOM5875
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Prayer in school is not new! Hell, I prayed each and every day.
*Oh, lord, please let me get laid today!!!!*
*Oh, lord, please let me get laid today!!!!*
Dixon Carter Lee
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Even the proponents of school prayer wouldn't think of "making" anyone pray. Prayer in a school is not prohibited. Pray all you like. Pray at lunch. Pray before a test. Pray in study hall. Do it out loud. It's okay. It's always been okay, and it always will be okay. Prayer in school is not prohibited. Institutionally Organized prayer is (rightly) prohibited because it presupposes government sanction for a dogmatic theological model -- not the school's business.
EthiopianPrince
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no school sponsored prayer, no school prohibition of prayer (unless it is distracting other students or interfering with schoolwork).
Dixon Carter Lee said:
I disagree here. Of course, no one can force our thoughts, but I think there are many proponents of school prayer who would love to try to force it! With the rest of your post I agree.
How many times has this thread appear here?
Shy Tall Guy
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There is "prayer in school", and there is "school prayer". I will leave it to you to figure out what I mean by that, but here is a clue; I support the former as a right, I strongly object to the latter as an infringement on everybody's rights.Topher said:
Goodnight everyone
I have to start weaning myself from here.
I have way too much work to do to sit around and
read your guys' excellent posts everyday.
I'm going to bed early. Thanks for the response! I'll make it a poll tomorrow unless someone else wants to go ahead and do it.
Now I have to resist checking up on the threads that I am following.
I have to start weaning myself from here.
I have way too much work to do to sit around and
read your guys' excellent posts everyday.
I'm going to bed early. Thanks for the response! I'll make it a poll tomorrow unless someone else wants to go ahead and do it.
Now I have to resist checking up on the threads that I am following.
LadyDarkFire
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Prayer in schools? School Prayer?
No. Too many religions, too much that can go wrong with it, too many openings for hurt feelings, etc for me to feel comfortable with the idea of Prayer and Schools going hand in hand.
(Then again, I was the kid who went toe to toe with a freshman year teacher when she tried to tell me I was being a deviant for not saying "Under God." I proceeded to show her a necklace I was wearing. I spent the rest of the morning, until lunch, explaining to my councelor that the Pentacle was perfectly acceptable, and sighted a recent court case that upheld the student's right to wear a very similar pendant to my own. )
No. Too many religions, too much that can go wrong with it, too many openings for hurt feelings, etc for me to feel comfortable with the idea of Prayer and Schools going hand in hand.
(Then again, I was the kid who went toe to toe with a freshman year teacher when she tried to tell me I was being a deviant for not saying "Under God." I proceeded to show her a necklace I was wearing. I spent the rest of the morning, until lunch, explaining to my councelor that the Pentacle was perfectly acceptable, and sighted a recent court case that upheld the student's right to wear a very similar pendant to my own.
)
SweetCherry
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I spent 8 years in a parochial school, where prayer and religion were force fed to me several times daily. I grew to resent it. It made me grow ti dislike church and organized religion. I wish I'd had the freedom to resist what they were pushing down my throat. Shouldit be mandatory in public schools? No, I don't think so. When you force someone into something they grow to resent it. Should the option be available, such as a moment of "silent meditation" each morning before classes start? By all means yes.Let the kids have a moment to themselves to think, meditate or pray to whatever higher power they believe in. Just don't push it down their throats.
tigerjen
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I don't believe that public school education and religion
mix at all......its just like the "separation of church and
state". Prayer in public schools has been unconstitutional
since the early 1960s.....
Plus on top of that, there are many different religions
represented by the kids....Jewish, Catholic, Christian,
Muslim, Greek Orthodox, Buddism, Agnostic, Athieist...I
could go on and on....but you get the picture.
This is to Topher: is your child being pressured to pray
where he goes to school?
tigerjen
mix at all......its just like the "separation of church and
state". Prayer in public schools has been unconstitutional
since the early 1960s.....
Plus on top of that, there are many different religions
represented by the kids....Jewish, Catholic, Christian,
Muslim, Greek Orthodox, Buddism, Agnostic, Athieist...I
could go on and on....but you get the picture.
This is to Topher: is your child being pressured to pray
where he goes to school?
tigerjen
I have no children - but if I did ...
I just like stirring up shit.
I do have a story:
When I was in 3rd grade I had a teacher who read a chapter out of Psalms every morning. One morning the kid sitting across from me (Brian Mc----- I still remember who it was) was making faces or something while she was reciting. I was snickering or something, and she noticed that I wasn't paying attention. She made me handwrite that entire chapter as punishment. A whole chapter in Psalms is a daunting task for a third-grader.
Yes, this was public school. If I was then who I am now ...
Once in HS a girl student died and the Vice Principal asked everyone to pray on the intercom. He invoked the name of Jesus.
Sure a girl died, so I didn't raise a stink, but it was very unfair (not to mention unconstitutional) to put me in a position where I would feel guilt and discomfort about my resentment of the prayer. We had a significant Hindu population too, but this was a rural school.
Frankly I think Christianity and all the major religions are fairy tales. I have a minor in Religious Studies from a school with a very strong RS department, and I know enough Hebrew and Greek (read: have had 1 semester each, so I'm not an expert, though I would say an am an expert in the languages of the Bible when compared to the *typical* American Christian) to hold my own in discussions of exegesis. I think they are fascinating in many facets, but I hold them in the same esteem as most do Greek mythology (in other words it's all mythology to me).
Was a pagan for awhile, then I came back to Earth
Don't hit me brehtren and sistren Blessed be! We all come from the Goddess Of them all I think only Taoism and Buddhism have anything profound to say about the nature of the Cosmos and psychology, I wish I could more consistently practice mindfulness. But I don't think any religion I have heard of has anything truly revelatory to say about the origins of the universe (yes I know the Hindu repeated big bangs and big crunches story).
So while they are fascinating as a study, religions have no place in the classroom save in the context of history (I agree that it is a PC travesty to ignore religion's role in history).
I just like stirring up shit.
I do have a story:
When I was in 3rd grade I had a teacher who read a chapter out of Psalms every morning. One morning the kid sitting across from me (Brian Mc----- I still remember who it was) was making faces or something while she was reciting. I was snickering or something, and she noticed that I wasn't paying attention. She made me handwrite that entire chapter as punishment. A whole chapter in Psalms is a daunting task for a third-grader.
Yes, this was public school. If I was then who I am now ...
Once in HS a girl student died and the Vice Principal asked everyone to pray on the intercom. He invoked the name of Jesus.
Sure a girl died, so I didn't raise a stink, but it was very unfair (not to mention unconstitutional) to put me in a position where I would feel guilt and discomfort about my resentment of the prayer. We had a significant Hindu population too, but this was a rural school.
Frankly I think Christianity and all the major religions are fairy tales. I have a minor in Religious Studies from a school with a very strong RS department, and I know enough Hebrew and Greek (read: have had 1 semester each, so I'm not an expert, though I would say an am an expert in the languages of the Bible when compared to the *typical* American Christian) to hold my own in discussions of exegesis. I think they are fascinating in many facets, but I hold them in the same esteem as most do Greek mythology (in other words it's all mythology to me).
Was a pagan for awhile, then I came back to Earth
Don't hit me brehtren and sistren
Blessed be! We all come from the Goddess Of them all I think only Taoism and Buddhism have anything profound to say about the nature of the Cosmos and psychology, I wish I could more consistently practice mindfulness. But I don't think any religion I have heard of has anything truly revelatory to say about the origins of the universe (yes I know the Hindu repeated big bangs and big crunches story).So while they are fascinating as a study, religions have no place in the classroom save in the context of history (I agree that it is a PC travesty to ignore religion's role in history).
daughter
Dreamer
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We've got guns, dope, and condoms
in the schools. Are you insane, have prayer there, too?
Our money says "In God we Trust". You swear on a Bible in court.
We elect officials who attend church. Who wants to forfeit their tax deduction? Please.
The country is founded on religious freedom. I wouldn't argue for mandatory prayer, but this irrational argument that our children are going to be warped by it is nonsense.
We got kids blowing up schools, and we're worried about them being corrupted by prayer? That is ludcrious. We've got a steady diet of violence, sex, and dope, and prayer is equally insidious?
Fanaticism, immorality, narcissism is killing us not prayer. Stop blaming religion and prayer for our own choices and actions. Be willing to be accountable and stop hiding behind everything else.
We fuck up cause we choose to. I'm sick of folks killing in the name of God and equally digusted by those who blame God for it.
((daughter getting off her soapbox))
Peace,
d
in the schools. Are you insane, have prayer there, too?
Our money says "In God we Trust". You swear on a Bible in court.
We elect officials who attend church. Who wants to forfeit their tax deduction? Please.
The country is founded on religious freedom. I wouldn't argue for mandatory prayer, but this irrational argument that our children are going to be warped by it is nonsense.
We got kids blowing up schools, and we're worried about them being corrupted by prayer? That is ludcrious. We've got a steady diet of violence, sex, and dope, and prayer is equally insidious?
Fanaticism, immorality, narcissism is killing us not prayer. Stop blaming religion and prayer for our own choices and actions. Be willing to be accountable and stop hiding behind everything else.
We fuck up cause we choose to. I'm sick of folks killing in the name of God and equally digusted by those who blame God for it.
((daughter getting off her soapbox))
Peace,
d
Re: We've got guns, dope, and condoms
Our money says "In God we Trust".
T>A travesty.
You swear on a Bible in court.
T>I would refuse to do so.
We elect officials who attend church. Who wants to forfeit their tax deduction? Please.
The country is founded on religious freedom.
T>And I'm tired of "the country was founded on" and "the founding father this and that". Who cares? All I know is the forcing Jesus, specifically, and even a generic deity of any sort down my throat is wrong.
I wouldn't argue for mandatory prayer, but this irrational argument that our children are going to be warped by it is nonsense.
T> Who said warped? I might not disagree with the notion, but I don't think I said it. I think that my point was no one should feel excluded, religiously, in this great country of ours. Tell it to Anita Bryant.
We got kids blowing up schools, and we're worried about them being corrupted by prayer?
T> Not that I'm doubting that this happened, or could happen, but I'm having trouble recollecting the event.
I think most of the violence in schools is attributable to the nominally religious incrowd. Most of the assholes who ostracized anyone that was different in *my* school where in the FCA.
[Here's where I'll *really* get into trouble]: I don't exonerate, but I do sympathize with, Klebold and Harris. No doubt I had fantasies about shooting up the school. Luckily I didn't have faulty wiring ...
That is ludcrious. We've got a steady diet of violence, sex, and dope, and prayer is equally insidious?
T>Equally insidious. Hmmm. Well, the Bible is chock full of violence from Genesis to Revelation, so Sunday School is out.
Sex, insidious? You posted this to Literotica ...
Dope, again, maybe insidious, but so is caffeine ...
Fanaticism, immorality, narcissism is killing us not prayer. Stop blaming religion and prayer for our own choices and actions.
T> No blame. My main problem with religion is that it tends to stifle scientific questioning. Besides, I could say stop blaming lack of prayer.
Be willing to be accountable and stop hiding behind everything else.
T> I still don't understand where I say I'm blaming prayer for any of these things ...
We fuck up cause we choose to. I'm sick of folks killing in the name of God and equally digusted by those who blame God for it.
T>I'm in total agreement. I don't believe in God so I think "H"e is irrelevant to fucking up and invalid as an object of blame ...
((daughter getting off her soapbox))
Peace,
T>Shin-lamed-waw-mem
T>Topher
d
in the schools. Are you insane, have prayer there, too?
Our money says "In God we Trust".
T>A travesty.
You swear on a Bible in court.
T>I would refuse to do so.
We elect officials who attend church. Who wants to forfeit their tax deduction? Please.
The country is founded on religious freedom.
T>And I'm tired of "the country was founded on" and "the founding father this and that". Who cares? All I know is the forcing Jesus, specifically, and even a generic deity of any sort down my throat is wrong.
I wouldn't argue for mandatory prayer, but this irrational argument that our children are going to be warped by it is nonsense.
T> Who said warped? I might not disagree with the notion, but I don't think I said it. I think that my point was no one should feel excluded, religiously, in this great country of ours. Tell it to Anita Bryant.
We got kids blowing up schools, and we're worried about them being corrupted by prayer?
T> Not that I'm doubting that this happened, or could happen, but I'm having trouble recollecting the event.
I think most of the violence in schools is attributable to the nominally religious incrowd. Most of the assholes who ostracized anyone that was different in *my* school where in the FCA.
[Here's where I'll *really* get into trouble]: I don't exonerate, but I do sympathize with, Klebold and Harris. No doubt I had fantasies about shooting up the school. Luckily I didn't have faulty wiring ...
That is ludcrious. We've got a steady diet of violence, sex, and dope, and prayer is equally insidious?
T>Equally insidious. Hmmm. Well, the Bible is chock full of violence from Genesis to Revelation, so Sunday School is out.
Sex, insidious? You posted this to Literotica ...
Dope, again, maybe insidious, but so is caffeine ...
Fanaticism, immorality, narcissism is killing us not prayer. Stop blaming religion and prayer for our own choices and actions.
T> No blame. My main problem with religion is that it tends to stifle scientific questioning. Besides, I could say stop blaming lack of prayer.
Be willing to be accountable and stop hiding behind everything else.
T> I still don't understand where I say I'm blaming prayer for any of these things ...
We fuck up cause we choose to. I'm sick of folks killing in the name of God and equally digusted by those who blame God for it.
T>I'm in total agreement. I don't believe in God so I think "H"e is irrelevant to fucking up and invalid as an object of blame ...
((daughter getting off her soapbox))
Peace,
T>Shin-lamed-waw-mem
T>Topher
d
Last edited:
Re: Re: Re: Re: Prayer in schools?
Please don't encourage me! I'm a big enough blowhard already
RisiaSkye said:
I not only second your agreement, I love the response. You may be my favorite "newbie" in a while, T. That and three bucks will buy you coffee, but still...welcome aboard.
Please don't encourage me! I'm a big enough blowhard already
bobo_daclown
Literotica Guru
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A few things:
First off, Topher, shalom (peace) is spelled shin-lamed-cholam-mem. I'm not sure where you got the waw, unless you meant vav and it's not a vav, it's a cholam (vav w/dot above) b/c you can spell shalom w/o the vav by using the cholam with out the line under it.
Second off, Daugher, a big hmmm to you. I'm not going to pull a long drawn-out criticism of your argument. It's a valid point and it's your opinion. That's what we're here for. Thanks for contributing with a strong argument.
Third, I don't believe that prayer should be taugh in school, but since elementary school, kids say "...one nation, under God, indivisible...."
It is very frightening that the people who founded this country were in such a hurry for religious tolerence that they moved overseas and created a government filled with religious ideals. Unfortunately, the entire moral structure each person believes is somewhat founded in his faith. Therefore, how do you teach right and wrong in a school without teaching morality? And, how do you teach morality without using religious teaching?
Ultimately, I am lucky in that I was raised in a home where I had religious freedom. Though I chose the religion of my father and his father, I did so knowing the alternatives. This has made me a very strong Jew. I am scared that one day, my children will have to deal with the same problems that I did growing up. Will they be able to defend their ideas against others? I think that making school-sponsered activities with prayer is a horrible idea.
Another example:
I am an Eagle Scout in the Boy Scouts of America. A scout is reverent, according to the last point of the scout law. Before eating dinner at scout camp or scouting events, they always said grace. Jews say grace after a meal. Jews don't remove their headcovering to say prayers. Hmm. Interesting things that I had to deal with in my life.
{{Sorry if I digressed}}
B'shalom ub'ahava,
Bobo
First off, Topher, shalom (peace) is spelled shin-lamed-cholam-mem. I'm not sure where you got the waw, unless you meant vav and it's not a vav, it's a cholam (vav w/dot above) b/c you can spell shalom w/o the vav by using the cholam with out the line under it.
Second off, Daugher, a big hmmm to you. I'm not going to pull a long drawn-out criticism of your argument. It's a valid point and it's your opinion. That's what we're here for. Thanks for contributing with a strong argument.
Third, I don't believe that prayer should be taugh in school, but since elementary school, kids say "...one nation, under God, indivisible...."
It is very frightening that the people who founded this country were in such a hurry for religious tolerence that they moved overseas and created a government filled with religious ideals. Unfortunately, the entire moral structure each person believes is somewhat founded in his faith. Therefore, how do you teach right and wrong in a school without teaching morality? And, how do you teach morality without using religious teaching?
Ultimately, I am lucky in that I was raised in a home where I had religious freedom. Though I chose the religion of my father and his father, I did so knowing the alternatives. This has made me a very strong Jew. I am scared that one day, my children will have to deal with the same problems that I did growing up. Will they be able to defend their ideas against others? I think that making school-sponsered activities with prayer is a horrible idea.
Another example:
I am an Eagle Scout in the Boy Scouts of America. A scout is reverent, according to the last point of the scout law. Before eating dinner at scout camp or scouting events, they always said grace. Jews say grace after a meal. Jews don't remove their headcovering to say prayers. Hmm. Interesting things that I had to deal with in my life.
{{Sorry if I digressed}}
B'shalom ub'ahava,
Bobo
Last edited:
Weird Harold
Opinionated Old Fart
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At my High School Graduation (1968), there was an "invocation" by a Catholic Priest, A "Blessing" by a Methodist minister, and a "Benediction" by a Jewish Rabbi. At my brothers' graduation (1972) the Methodist minister and Catholic Priest were replaced by a reverend from the "Holy Fire Baptized" church and The pastor of the First Christian congregation.
In 1968 in a small town in Oregon with almost as many churches as people, this was just things going on as normal. I didn't see anything wrong with it then, and I don't see anything wrong with it now -- because that's the way the community wanted it.
In 1978, at my third brother's graduation, there was only a benediction by the Catholic Priest, in 1980, there was no religious participation.
In all cases, the religious participation was at the request of the graduating class and not mandated by the school administration.
The big problem I have with a legal ban on school prayer, is that it infringes on the ability of the school systems to meet the needs of the students and the community. It denies the majority the right to free expression because it will offend a minority -- often a minority of one.
The majority of the student body in any given school should have the right to decide whether prayer is appropriate for their school, and the Federal Government should keep it's pandering nose out of things.
In 1968 in a small town in Oregon with almost as many churches as people, this was just things going on as normal. I didn't see anything wrong with it then, and I don't see anything wrong with it now -- because that's the way the community wanted it.
In 1978, at my third brother's graduation, there was only a benediction by the Catholic Priest, in 1980, there was no religious participation.
In all cases, the religious participation was at the request of the graduating class and not mandated by the school administration.
The big problem I have with a legal ban on school prayer, is that it infringes on the ability of the school systems to meet the needs of the students and the community. It denies the majority the right to free expression because it will offend a minority -- often a minority of one.
The majority of the student body in any given school should have the right to decide whether prayer is appropriate for their school, and the Federal Government should keep it's pandering nose out of things.
Shy Tall Guy
Literotica Guru
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I disagree; support your assertion.bobo_daclown said:
Many people are taught morality within the framework of a religion, but it is entirely possible to teach morality outside of any religious framework. Simple theories such as the Golden Rule and Natural Rights can illustrate morality without a religious framework.
When I debate morality with others I almost never use my own religious framework but rather rely mostly on those two theories or morality theories.
bobo_daclown said:
[PDF] Re-Passagization of the Bible For More Effective Bible ...
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... word boundaries. For example, the word shalom, in Hebrew has 4 letters ... pronounce and
comes up with (shin) (lamed) (waw) (mem) with an "a" sound after ...
www.cs.brandeis.edu/~mmorrell/Proposal.PDF - Similar pages
I'm an idiot for doing this, but this WASP(lapsed) who took one semester of Biblical Hebrew is going to disagree with a Jew. I don't know your history, bobo, but I am going to assume that you've been exposed to, an instructed in, hebrew your entire life.
I'm sure your knowledge of Hebrew outstrips mine by several magnitudes!
Well, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think that we are both right.
I come at the word from a (limited) secular academic POV. I'm sure your POV is likely religious and/or ethnic in nature. In popular American secular scholarship the letter is pronounced "waw" (hence "Yahweh" *I can say that I don't believe in him*). It's traditionally pronounced "vav" (hence German-influenced spelling "Jehovah"). No one knows for sure how Moses pronounced things, but "waw" is the *secular* linguistic consensus. The Google result above shows that I am not the only one to spell the word in that manner.
"Cholam" is the name of a vowel, as I understand it, and it is represented by a pointed, ok, vav. I wouldn't call cholam a letter; maybe some do. I'm sure you know that Moses, if he did indeed write the Torah, did not use pointing. So, to Moses, a cholam and a waw/vav would be indistinguishable. The points, as you know, were added to biblical hebrew by the Masoretes in c.200?CE?
I'm struck by the similarity to the issue of American classical latin scholarship vs liturgical and common European pronunciation.
A European Roman Catholic priest would say something close to "Joo-lee-us Chay-sar", but an American Latin prof would say "Yoo-lee-us Kie-sar") for Iulius Caesar. Likewise European: "vee-ah", American: "wee-ah" (for "via"). Americans put more faith (I think rightly) in linguistic reconstruction of pronunciation.
Another cite, kinda flaky-looking, from :http://www.hebrewbookofthedead.com/sofandsuf.html-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Cholam, which is Vav with a dot over its head and a Shuruk, which is a Vav with a dot in its belly. Originally, and for at least 2,000 years, the Vav existed without any dot at all. It is only when Biblical Hebrew ceased to be a living, spoken language -- around the Sixth and Seventh Centuries, C.E.-- that the need for a system of vocalization arose
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everything I said (I didn't even talk about matres lectionis) is in my learning text from class: T. O. Lambdin, Introduction to Biblical Hebrew (Scribner, 1971).
I stand by my original spelling.
