POV switch with new chapter -- advice?

[ronde]

It's about 15 pages double spaced. Assuming 250 words per page

The numbers for my stories are about 3200 words per lit page, but there can be significant variation depending on how much white space separates paragraphs.

 

[SimonDoom]

I was considering Dave with Rick one POV and Dave inside the framed story with Meg another. The voice of the story teller is always first person, but The POV of the story being told shifts from first person present to first person past.

I’m not an expert on this, it’s just the way I see it when I think of the story. One overriding main story told by Dave and two framed stories, one told by Dave, one told by Rick.

The point of view is the view of the person who is telling the story. In your story, the "I" is always Dave, not Rick and not Meg. Dave is relating events in the first person, telling the reader what he sees, thinks, feels, and experiences. This is first person point of view from Dave's point of view.

First person POV from Rick's point of view would be if, after the asterisk break, you started narrating the story from Rick's POV, where Rick was "I."

In your story, there is no shift in point of view, at least through the sections that I read.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

The point of view is the view of the person who is telling the story. In your story, the "I" is always Dave, not Rick and not Meg. Dave is relating events in the first person, telling the reader what he sees, thinks, feels, and experiences. This is first person point of view from Dave's point of view.

First person POV from Rick's point of view would be if, after the asterisk break, you started narrating the story from Rick's POV, where Rick was "I."

In your story, there is no shift in point of view, at least through the sections that I read.

Fair enough. Rock does tell his story From a first person POV. I still see a shift when Dave goes from just talking to Rick to telling his story even if they are both relayed in first person voice.

 

[SimonDoom]

Fair enough. Rock does tell his story From a first person POV. I still see a shift when Dave goes from just talking to Rick to telling his story even if they are both relayed in first person voice.

I read a little further. You shifted to Rick's point of view on page two, after the break, where the chapter starts, "Me and Mary."

 

[ronde]

It's probably nothing to worry about too much. There are a few readers who are opinionated enough about stories that are too long/too short for their preferences that they'll complain in comments. You'll probably see more people complain about brevity, but that might simply be attributable to fewer of them wanting to navigate to the final page of a longer tale just to say they got bored or turned off and couldn't finish.

People who write stories with many chapters (and I am one) consistently report that readership quickly drops off after the first few chapters, and there's no reason to believe the same behavior isn't generally true of readers confronting a story that's 25 lit pages or 25 1-page installments. If they like the story, they'll probably try to finish it regardless (assuming the author does, anyway), and if it carries on longer than they care to follow they'll abandon it.

I think there are several things in play for long, stand alone stories of many Lit pages vs. many short chapters published over time.

The reasons for declining reads and votes for many short chapters is probably two-fold. The time between chapters is probably a big factor unless the author is well-known. I see some series that stretch over a two-year or greater time period. It's asking a lot to expect readers to keep following a story for that long unless the author has gathered a following. It's too easy to forget what happened in the first installments and to make sense of the latest, the reader might have to go back and re-read one or two. I'd equate that to buying a novel in book format and reading only one chapter a month.

Another problem with many continuing chapters is, as you point out, does the author have a track record of writing in this manner and finishing the entire story. That's going to be difficult for a first time author to prove.

There's also the problem of the chapters not maintaining the flow of the entire story, as when the plot of one installment deviates significantly from one or more of the others. The reader could be left scratching his or her head and wondering if they're reading the same story. If that's the case, it's probably best to write each chapter as a stand alone story as part of a series with the same characters rather than as a part of a continuing story, much like the TV shows do.

I think longer stories are probably better published as a single, stand-alone story no matter the length with a couple caveats. One, the story must have a main plot so the reader will keep reading to see what happens next. It's the, "I got so absorbed I couldn't stop reading" thing, and leaving a "cliff hanger" between chapters is a great way to do that. If the plot diverts all over the place, a reader is probably not going to continue. Two, one of my pet gripes about professional authors is the addition of material for the sole purpose of increasing the page count. What results is a bunch of information not relative to the main plot or the characters and leaves me asking when the author is going to get back to the story.

 

[Duleigh]

So I'm hoping some more seasoned folks here can advise on how to best format/publish this beast.

Switching POV is actually quite easy, the hard part is doing it gracefully. What you need to do is take more time introducing your characters and their point of view. I'm working on my April Fools story and I just hit 2500 words and I'm still doing exposition. If you make your characters interesting and the locale engaging your readers will hang in there.

Don't be too anxious to get to the end. Draw up a rough outline then take your time and enjoy the trip. If the story starts to change course, let it, explore where it's going. We're not designing airplanes, we're telling tales. Let yourself fall in love with your characters, when you do that, your readers will sense it and they will love your characters too. I have several readers who call my characters "their family."

When you change point of view, make sure your first couple of paragraphs are all exposition. Who is now the focus? Where are they? What are they thinking? This insures a smooth transition for your readers, after that it should be clear sailing.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I read a little further. You shifted to Rick's point of view on page two, after the break, where the chapter starts, "Me and Mary."

The whole thing was kind of tricky. I'm actually glad it's come up like this so I can get some helpful insight.

 

[alohadave]

The numbers for my stories are about 3200 words per lit page, but there can be significant variation depending on how much white space separates paragraphs.

There's definitely variation.

One thing I've seen posted is that Lit pages are 20,000 characters, which would include white space, but I've never bothered to check that.

 

[SimonDoom]

A few more off the cuff thoughts. As I said before, I think the most important thing is clarity. The author should always ask whether it's clear to the reader whose point of view is being told.

Another issue is justification. Why choose the point of view or points of view you have chosen? I think that's particularly true when you tell a story in the first person POV from more than one person's point of view. The more common, normal way to do this is to do it in third person POV, where one shifts from character A to character B at a break. There's a certain logic to doing it that way, because it's implicitly understood that the third person narrator has the ability to shift from one POV to another. It's a little less clear when you shift from one first person POV to another. Not that it's bad, but I think it needs a little more thought.

Getting back to @ShelbyDawn57's story https://literotica.com/s/boat-talk, the story begins with several sections, set off by asterisks, told from Dave's point of view. Near the end of page two, a new section begins and it shifts to Rick's point of view. The end of the previous section sets up this section as a reminiscence by Rick while he and Dave are sitting in a hot tub having drinks. So, presumably, this section is what Rick tells Dave about a previous incident. This section continues for just over one Lit page, so it's around 4000 words.

But it's not narrated in the form of a speech by Rick to Dave. There are no quote marks around the whole thing, and it doesn't read like a story one person would tell another. It's a hybrid of a first person narration and a tale told by one character to another. So, it's a little confusing, but it's also understandable why the author would want to write it this way rather than as one long bit of dialogue from Rick to Dave. Those sorts of dialogue-reminisces can be difficult to read unless done right. I don't think there's necessarily one ideal way to do this, but I would probably do it so it's clear that everything said in this 4000 word section is, word for word, what Rick says to Dave. It's more logical as a story within a story that way. That way it makes more sense as a part of the overall framing of Dave's first person narration. I think you can ditch the framing quote marks, because those get cumbersome after a while, but make the narration sound more like something one person would say to another while sitting in a hot tub. You would need the quote marks, however, if once in a while you want Rick to stop his narrative, take a break, and talk to Dave directly, or be interrupted by Dave to ask a question, which would be a natural thing to happen during an extended monologue.

Another way to do it would be to put the whole thing in third person POV, shifting from Dave's limited perspective to Rick's limited perspective at the break. By keeping it in third person, the author/narrator has more leeway to interject themselves into the narration and to be less careful about presenting the narration always as by one of the characters.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

A few more off the cuff thoughts. As I said before, I think the most important thing is clarity. The author should always ask whether it's clear to the reader whose point of view is being told.

Another issue is justification. Why choose the point of view or points of view you have chosen? I think that's particularly true when you tell a story in the first person POV from more than one person's point of view. The more common, normal way to do this is to do it in third person POV, where one shifts from character A to character B at a break. There's a certain logic to doing it that way, because it's implicitly understood that the third person narrator has the ability to shift from one POV to another. It's a little less clear when you shift from one first person POV to another. Not that it's bad, but I think it needs a little more thought.

Getting back to @ShelbyDawn57's story https://literotica.com/s/boat-talk, the story begins with several sections, set off by asterisks, told from Dave's point of view. Near the end of page two, a new section begins and it shifts to Rick's point of view. The end of the previous section sets up this section as a reminiscence by Rick while he and Dave are sitting in a hot tub having drinks. So, presumably, this section is what Rick tells Dave about a previous incident. This section continues for just over one Lit page, so it's around 4000 words.

But it's not narrated in the form of a speech by Rick to Dave. There are no quote marks around the whole thing, and it doesn't read like a story one person would tell another. It's a hybrid of a first person narration and a tale told by one character to another. So, it's a little confusing, but it's also understandable why the author would want to write it this way rather than as one long bit of dialogue from Rick to Dave. Those sorts of dialogue-reminisces can be difficult to read unless done right. I don't think there's necessarily one ideal way to do this, but I would probably do it so it's clear that everything said in this 4000 word section is, word for word, what Rick says to Dave. It's more logical as a story within a story that way. That way it makes more sense as a part of the overall framing of Dave's first person narration. I think you can ditch the framing quote marks, because those get cumbersome after a while, but make the narration sound more like something one person would say to another while sitting in a hot tub. You would need the quote marks, however, if once in a while you want Rick to stop his narrative, take a break, and talk to Dave directly, or be interrupted by Dave to ask a question, which would be a natural thing to happen during an extended monologue.

Another way to do it would be to put the whole thing in third person POV, shifting from Dave's limited perspective to Rick's limited perspective at the break. By keeping it in third person, the author/narrator has more leeway to interject themselves into the narration and to be less careful about presenting the narration always as by one of the characters.

Love this. Thanks. And to note. just like @StillStunned did his little second person disaster, I did it this way on purpose to see if my vision of the narrative worked. I'm relatively happy with how it turned out.

 

[SirAeghann]

I experimented with POV shifting recently. Typically, I've done it sparingly, if at all, because I personally find it jarring as a reader to switch back and forth constantly. So when I started, I wrote from one POV only as the main character.

Then I came to a point in the story where the story was suffering from the main character not being in the scenes where story was happening, and having those events occur off-screen was confusing the readers. So I started implementing secondary POVs, but only when the MC wasn't there.

Then I started experimenting with writing the scenes from those POVs instead of from the MC's because I wanted to give the readers insight into those characters that I couldn't otherwise. It was a very effective method of giving the readers a deeper knowledge of the characters, their insecurities, etc.

Typically, though, I tried to stick with one, or two POVs max and for most if not all of the chapter, which is about 20k words on average. At least that's the chapter length I aim for.

Recently, I did two chapters that almost constantly switched POVs because the story had to follow multiple scenes that were happening simultaneously, and it was fun, but difficult. I tried to make each stopping point and consequent change of POV feel natural, and like that scene had ended while still maintaining enough tension in the narrative to retain interest to return to that group of characters later.

I asked my beta readers what they thought, and essentially the consensus was that it worked because it was necessary. So what I've learned about POV switching can be summarized as:

1. Only change POVs when it's necessary to tell the next beat of the plot or story.

2. Take the opportunity to make the most out of the POV change and reveal character insights.

3. Make sure the POV change does not interrupt the scene happening in the story. Pacing the POV switch isn't a word count issue, it's a flow issue.

Chapter pacing is the same. So I'd outline your chapters first and go with chapter breaks that make sense story wise, regardless of POV breaks. If one chapter goes Character A, Character B, and back to Character A, that's fine, especially if making Character A's POV return the start of the second chapter instead would disrupt the flow of the story.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I'm curious, though. I got my idea for switching POV from GRRM. GoT is all third person voice, but he talked about have like a dozen POV characters, people whose perception of the story he was relaying; Tyrion, John Snow, Cercei, Arya, we all now them. How do we differentiate between the authors POV or voice and the characters?

Also, in specific reference to Boat Talk, how much would it have helped if I had told the overriding story in third person and kept teh two framed stories in first?

EDIT: I'm not trying to be a self centered narcissist here by referring to my story, I just think it's a good example for the conversation nd I believe the conversation has great value, so...

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm curious, though. I got my idea for switching POV from GRRM. GoT is all third person voice, but he talked about have like a dozen POV characters, people whose perception of the story he was relaying; Tyrion, John Snow, Cercei, Arya, we all now them. How do we differentiate between the authors POV or voice and the characters?

It's been a while since I read GOT and I don't have the book handy. The nice thing about third person is the author can be flexible. One can tell the story in more of an objective, omniscient way, where the point of view of different characters is described but the author doesn't necessarily use completely different voices. Or the author can tell the story in more of a close/limited style in which the narration itself sounds like something only that character would say. Both styles work--but you want to be consistent!

Also, in specific reference to Boat Talk, how much would it have helped if I had told the overriding story in third person and kept teh two framed stories in first?

I don't know if it would have been better, but I think it would be easier and require less explaining.

So if I did it, at the end of Dave's section, as they get into the hot tub, I would, from a third person POV, describe Rick getting into the tub and saying something like "Then Rick told his story."

Then I would do it one of three ways.

1. The story could continue from Dave's narrative point of view, with Dave asking Rick questions and Rick giving extended answers to tell his story in the form of a dialogue to Rick. The narration could ONLY include Dave's thoughts and Rick's thoughts only to the extent Rick shared them in dialogue form with Dave. I think this is the most internally logical way to do it. To do it successfully, the dialogue should be broken up at times by Dave asking questions or narrating how he is reacting or acting.

2. Or the new chapter could start in third person from Rick's POV, where Rick conveys exactly what he says to Dave just as he says it but also narrates thoughts and reminisces that he may or may not share.

3. Or it could be told as a third person narrative from Rick's POV but without strict attention to making it sound like something Rick is telling Dave.

 

[djrip]

I'm curious, though. I got my idea for switching POV from GRRM. GoT is all third person voice, but he talked about have like a dozen POV characters, people whose perception of the story he was relaying; Tyrion, John Snow, Cercei, Arya, we all now them. How do we differentiate between the authors POV or voice and the characters?

I haven't read GoT yet but Robert Jordan does the dozen or more POV characters too. His style changes noticeably with each character. The narrative uses different idioms. The characters notice different kinds of things and get reminded of different kinds of memories when they see various events.

The blacksmith thinks of situations like iron puzzles to work out. The princess is always thinking about lessons on politics and economics in relation to whatever's going on. The rogue is an unreliable narrator who is always saying stuff like I'm no bloody hero both out loud and in his thoughts, as he incidentally rescues someone.

So you can pretty much tell who the POV character is without being told. You can drop into the middle of a chapter and read a paragraph that doesn't mention any names and still tell.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

It's been a while since I read GOT and I don't have the book handy. The nice thing about third person is the author can be flexible. One can tell the story in more of an objective, omniscient way, where the point of view of different characters is described but the author doesn't necessarily use completely different voices. Or the author can tell the story in more of a close/limited style in which the narration itself sounds like something only that character would say. Both styles work--but you want to be consistent!




I don't know if it would have been better, but I think it would be easier and require less explaining.

So if I did it, at the end of Dave's section, as they get into the hot tub, I would, from a third person POV, describe Rick getting into the tub and saying something like "Then Rick told his story."

Then I would do it one of three ways.

1. The story could continue from Dave's narrative point of view, with Dave asking Rick questions and Rick giving extended answers to tell his story in the form of a dialogue to Rick. The narration could ONLY include Dave's thoughts and Rick's thoughts only to the extent Rick shared them in dialogue form with Dave. I think this is the most internally logical way to do it. To do it successfully, the dialogue should be broken up at times by Dave asking questions or narrating how he is reacting or acting.

2. Or the new chapter could start in third person from Rick's POV, where Rick conveys exactly what he says to Dave just as he says it but also narrates thoughts and reminisces that he may or may not share.

3. Or it could be told as a third person narrative from Rick's POV but without strict attention to making it sound like something Rick is telling Dave.

Sounds like I need to do a deep dive into the different forms of third person narrative. I like the intimacy of first person, the ability to be inside the MC as they discover things and see things for the first time, but I also understand that I'm missing out on what I would call a world building perspective. Got a recent comment on another story. The reader called me out on things that weren't there. Well, it is first person and the MC didn't know them, so, of course they weren't there. But I also reaslize that fi they were, it would have made a richer story, so...this conversation.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I haven't read GoT yet...

I hope that yet is a small one. Surpasses Tolkien in my opinion.

 

[djrip]

I hope that yet is a small one. Surpasses Tolkien in my opinion.

It's on the shelf! But so is Conan, Stormlight Archive, Name of the Wind, Gideon the Ninth, Dreams Underfoot, Summer Queen... Not to mention I've been wanting to reread Book of the New Sun and maybe the Baroque Cycle, that one might be my favorite of all time but it took me 5 years or so to read it the first time (interspersed with other things), it was so densely convoluted. Oh and I haven't gotten to Iron Council yet but after the awesomeness of Perdido and The Scar I really should.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

It's on the shelf! But so is Conan, Stormlight Archive, Name of the Wind, Gideon the Ninth, Dreams Underfoot, Summer Queen... Not to mention I've been wanting to reread Book of the New Sun and maybe the Baroque Cycle, that one might be my favorite of all time but it took me 5 years or so to read it the first time (interspersed with other things), it was so densely convoluted. Oh and I haven't gotten to Iron Council yet but after the awesomeness of Perdido and The Scar I really should.

OK, hall pass. Jus go binge a few seasons on HBO when your eyes get tired. LOL

 

[StillStunned]

Love this. Thanks. And to note. just like @StillStunned did his little second person disaster, I did it this way on purpose to see if my vision of the narrative worked. I'm relatively happy with how it turned out.

Disaster?

 

[ElectricBlue]

I was considering Dave with Rick one POV and Dave inside the framed story with Meg another. The voice of the story teller is always first person, but The POV of the story being told shifts from first person present to first person past.

I’m not an expert on this, it’s just the way I see it when I think of the story. One overriding main story told by Dave and two framed stories, one told by Dave, one told by Rick.

That's a framing device for the flashback sequence.

Point of view is more simply, first person, second person, third person - it's the narrative view, regardless of tense or time.

The same applies though - when you shift in time or place with a section gap, you've got to establish the new context quickly, so the reader knows when/where/who they're with.

 

[Rob_Royale]

I have just finished a trilogy where the first person switches between the two main characters every 1800 words or so. I think that first person POV is just a little more intimate than third person, and I wanted that for these stories. I got minimal pushback on this format from readers and all three are rated very well.

I'm not saying what I did is right for you or your story, but if you think that format is important to how you want to tell your story, then do it. I don't know if I'll do it again, but I don't have any regrets.

Edit - I got a nice comment today regarding the POV shift.
tkh3nkey2110 about 2 hours ago
I liked this series a lot. At first I had some difficulty with the change of view point, but once I caught on to what the author was doing it became rather easy to shift gears.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Sounds like I need to do a deep dive into the different forms of third person narrative. I like the intimacy of first person, the ability to be inside the MC as they discover things and see things for the first time, but I also understand that I'm missing out on what I would call a world building perspective. Got a recent comment on another story. The reader called me out on things that weren't there. Well, it is first person and the MC didn't know them, so, of course they weren't there. But I also reaslize that they were, it would have made a richer story, so...this conversation.

You can get in just as close with limited third person narration, where the narrator sits with one character either for the whole story, or alternates characters. I often quote @HectorBidon, who wrote this about one of my stories:

I've always been partial to first person narration for conveying the intimate details of a character's inner life. But this story wonderfully shows how third person narration can be used to convey the inner activity of two characters, even during the intricate steps of their dance. We see the evening not as we would see it in real life---where we know our own feelings but can only guess at our partner's---but privy to both sides, able to see the uncertainty and hopefulness and playfulness and arousal on both sides as flirtation turns to courtship and courtship turns to foreplay. It's two intimate stories, really, interwoven at every scene. A tour-de-force of patient, loving, doubly imagined detail

The Floating World

 

[M_K_Babalon]

For me each Lit page is ~8 pages in standard manuscript format: A4 1.27cm margins, size 12 TNR, double-spaced, 1.27cm first line indents. Quite a disparity? Maybe that comes down to density of prose.

It does. I've explained it before. The incest story I started on my other account, two of the chapters are twelve or ten word pages long, two of them are fourteen. Between the four of them, two are two lit pages and the other two are one page. It's only a issue because Lit auto generates pages, nowhere else does that. It draws attention to chapter or story length. For example; A03 and Wattpad doesn't do that and a single page word limit is between 50&60 thousand. Really people saying a cHaPtErs ToO ShOrT, don't really know what the fuck they're talking about, depending. Because word processors basic setup is the page is the equivilent to a standard 6x12 sheet of paper and a Lit page is about or almost twice that. Or look at a real book that has chapters about as long as I write them(8-18 front and back), like in pretty much any Harry Potter book; they'ed be 1-4 Lit pages long.