POV switch with new chapter -- advice?

[RowanReese]

I'm a newbie to publishing on Literotica. I tend to write in chapters with an average length of 2500-4000 words, and I frequently use alternating POV that changes back and forth with each new chapter. My preliminary reading on this forum would suggest that each chapter would be 1-2 pages on Literotica, and I fully expect my current WIP to end up having in the neighborhood of 25-30 chapters.

So I'm hoping some more seasoned folks here can advise on how to best format/publish this beast. I'm obviously looking to make sure the reader can follow the POV changes, to keep the formatting as clean as possible, and to thread the reader's needle of "short enough that I don't give up before I'm two pages in" and "long enough to make it worth my while" for each part I submit.

Thanks!

 

[SimonDoom]

I think the default best practice in this situation is to write each chapter in the third person limited POV, switching from one character to another at the chapter break. I do NOT recommend using first person POV. In most cases, to me, switching first person POV seems contrived and less natural, and it's more jarring and confusing, whereas when you use third person limited it's very easy to establish the new POV at the beginning of the new chapter.

 

[RowanReese]

I think the default best practice in this situation is to write each chapter in the third person limited POV, switching from one character to another at the chapter break. I do NOT recommend using first person POV. In most cases, to me, switching first person POV seems contrived and less natural, and it's more jarring and confusing, whereas when you use third person limited it's very easy to establish the new POV at the beginning of the new chapter.

That's what I'm doing -- I agree that first-person POV switches are harder to follow and I don't write fiction in first-person. What I'm wondering is this: is it smarter to publish multiple chapters in the same post? I assume so, given that each chapter will probably only fill about one Literotica page.

Assuming the veterans here would recommend doing that, what's the least-objectionable way to indicate to the reader that there's been a chapter AND (third-person limited) POV change?

 

[TheRedChamber]

@SimonDoom mostly has you covered here.

One thing to point out is that I probably wouldn't publish each 2500-4000 word chapter as its own submission. I feel like that creates more of a mental break and if you're switching around characters at those breaks it gets more confusing as well. And generally longer stories get higher votes and (IMHO) are more convenient to read. Depending on the natural stories beats in your tale, I'd try to get four or five such chapters in one submission 'act'/'part' and follow something like an A,B,A,B structure if you've got two characters.

 

[TheRedChamber]

That's what I'm doing -- I agree that first-person POV switches are harder to follow and I don't write fiction in first-person. What I'm wondering is this: is it smarter to publish multiple chapters in the same post? I assume so, given that each chapter will probably only fill about one Literotica page.

Assuming the veterans here would recommend doing that, what's the least-objectionable way to indicate to the reader that there's been a chapter AND (third-person limited) POV change?

You posted this as I wrote my response.

All I usually do is put a chapter marker (.e.g <B>1.</B>) at the start. Then make sure you start the first paragraph dropping a characters name and giving some of their thoughts so it's clear you're in close third with them.

You can add the name to the chapter <B>1. Raymond</B> if you want, but its mostly unnecessary in my view. Still George R.R. Martin does it and he's a good authro to look at for how to handel third-person POV shifts (at least in the first three books)

 

[SimonDoom]

That's what I'm doing -- I agree that first-person POV switches are harder to follow and I don't write fiction in first-person. What I'm wondering is this: is it smarter to publish multiple chapters in the same post? I assume so, given that each chapter will probably only fill about one Literotica page.

Assuming the veterans here would recommend doing that, what's the least-objectionable way to indicate to the reader that there's been a chapter AND (third-person limited) POV change?

Yes, I think you are right.

Just so you understand my point of view: The text of your story is your art. Don't let anybody convince you to mess with your art.

But how you carve up the chapters, and everything else, is marketing. Do whatever is needed to get the best possible response. There's plenty of evidence that stories of 3+ Literotica pages (10,000 words) will do better than stories of 1 Literotica page (3750 words). So if you can, combine your "chapters" (where you switch POVs) into submissions that are over 7000 words and publish them that way rather than in very short chapters.

You don't need to overtly flag the POV change. It will come naturally in the story if you handle it artfully. Make the chapter breaks clear and at the beginning of the new chapter make it clear, one way or another, whose point of view you are narrating.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

As a reader, I’d just ask that each chapter tells a complete piece of the story. Nothing will turn me off more than being left hanging in the middle of a scene just because the author thinks a high chapter count is a good thing.

 

[ElectricBlue]

That's what I'm doing -- I agree that first-person POV switches are harder to follow and I don't write fiction in first-person. What I'm wondering is this: is it smarter to publish multiple chapters in the same post? I assume so, given that each chapter will probably only fill about one Literotica page.

Assuming the veterans here would recommend doing that, what's the least-objectionable way to indicate to the reader that there's been a chapter AND (third-person limited) POV change?

Your chapters are very short (barely one Lit page), I would at least aim for 2 - 3 Lit pages in any "chapter". Also, ask yourself this - in six months or a year, will those chapter lengths matter? It becomes a convenience to a reader, sure, but what relevance might the break point have in the context of the finished story?

I designate pov changes within a longer chapter with a visual break, for example:

* * * *

I then commence the next section with a paragraph that designates through context who's head you're now close to. Once your characters are established, that becomes pretty easy.

 

[RowanReese]

As a reader, I’d just ask that each chapter tells a complete piece of the story. Nothing will turn me off more than being left hanging in the middle of a scene just because the author thinks a high chapter count is a good thing.

Entirely fair, and agreed. I've written a couple of novels (not published here) in the 80K-100K word range. So far I find that 2500-4000 words per chapter tends to give you enough action to move the story forward without bogging it down and allows the chapter to end at a natural break point. (And my Googling suggests that most novels these days have chapters about that length, which is probably why it feels natural to me.)

 

[Bamagan]

I'm a newbie to publishing on Literotica. I tend to write in chapters with an average length of 2500-4000 words, and I frequently use alternating POV that changes back and forth with each new chapter. My preliminary reading on this forum would suggest that each chapter would be 1-2 pages on Literotica, and I fully expect my current WIP to end up having in the neighborhood of 25-30 chapters.

So I'm hoping some more seasoned folks here can advise on how to best format/publish this beast. I'm obviously looking to make sure the reader can follow the POV changes, to keep the formatting as clean as possible, and to thread the reader's needle of "short enough that I don't give up before I'm two pages in" and "long enough to make it worth my while" for each part I submit.

Thanks!

It's probably nothing to worry about too much. There are a few readers who are opinionated enough about stories that are too long/too short for their preferences that they'll complain in comments. You'll probably see more people complain about brevity, but that might simply be attributable to fewer of them wanting to navigate to the final page of a longer tale just to say they got bored or turned off and couldn't finish.

People who write stories with many chapters (and I am one) consistently report that readership quickly drops off after the first few chapters, and there's no reason to believe the same behavior isn't generally true of readers confronting a story that's 25 lit pages or 25 1-page installments. If they like the story, they'll probably try to finish it regardless (assuming the author does, anyway), and if it carries on longer than they care to follow they'll abandon it.

 

[SimonDoom]

People who write stories with many chapters (and I am one) consistently report that readership quickly drops off after the first few chapters, and there's no reason to believe the same behavior isn't generally true of readers confronting a story that's 25 lit pages or 25 1-page installments. If they like the story, they'll probably try to finish it regardless (assuming the author does, anyway), and if it carries on longer than they care to follow they'll abandon it.

Although this seems logical, there actually IS evidence to believe that it's not quite true--that is, there is reason to believe more people will ultimately read through to the end of a 25 page story than a story of the same length released in 25 1 page chapters. The basis for that is view:vote ratios. It's true that view:vote ratios grow larger as the story gets longer, but the ratio doesn't change as much as you would expect. On the other hand, if you look at the vote totals for hte last chapter of a 25 chapter story and take the ratio of Chapter 1 views: Chapter 25 votes, the ratio is much bigger. There appears to be greater attrition with chaptered stories than with longer standalone stories.

I attribute this to many readers not wanting to wait for publication of another chapter, but I'm just speculating.

 

[djrip]

Although this seems logical, there actually IS evidence to believe that it's not quite true--that is, there is reason to believe more people will ultimately read through to the end of a 25 page story than a story of the same length released in 25 1 page chapters. The basis for that is view:vote ratios. It's true that view:vote ratios grow larger as the story gets longer, but the ratio doesn't change as much as you would expect. On the other hand, if you look at the vote totals for hte last chapter of a 25 chapter story and take the ratio of Chapter 1 views: Chapter 25 votes, the ratio is much bigger. There appears to be greater attrition with chaptered stories than with longer standalone stories.

I attribute this to many readers not wanting to wait for publication of another chapter, but I'm just speculating.

Psychologically, if I'm reading a work, and a reasonable way into it, I'm probably going to finish. If the work is actually 13 works that go together, I may read them all, but I may not. At the end of any of the chapters, I'll have that psychological "done with that one" feeling and it will be easy to walk away if I'm not being strongly pulled into the next by the story.

 

[Cagivagurl]

I'm a newbie to publishing on Literotica. I tend to write in chapters with an average length of 2500-4000 words, and I frequently use alternating POV that changes back and forth with each new chapter. My preliminary reading on this forum would suggest that each chapter would be 1-2 pages on Literotica, and I fully expect my current WIP to end up having in the neighborhood of 25-30 chapters.

So I'm hoping some more seasoned folks here can advise on how to best format/publish this beast. I'm obviously looking to make sure the reader can follow the POV changes, to keep the formatting as clean as possible, and to thread the reader's needle of "short enough that I don't give up before I'm two pages in" and "long enough to make it worth my while" for each part I submit.

Thanks!

In my experience story length is a trade of.
Having written both short and long stories (Stand alone.
I have also written stories with up to 17 chapters.
The first thing you see with a chapter series is the view numbers going down with the release of each new chapter.
Some people can't be bothered and stop reading. It's much harder to keep them engaged.
I dislike (A personal peeve) Stories that change perspective. One character too another.
3rd person with an omnipresence is okay so long as it tells the same story.
I often see the perspective change, where the writers move ion and out of 3rd person, and that annoys me.
Just my thoughts.

Cagivagurl

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

In my experience story length is a trade of.
Having written both short and long stories (Stand alone.
I have also written stories with up to 17 chapters.
The first thing you see with a chapter series is the view numbers going down with the release of each new chapter.
Some people can't be bothered and stop reading. It's much harder to keep them engaged.
I dislike (A personal peeve) Stories that change perspective. One character too another.
3rd person with an omnipresence is okay so long as it tells the same story.
I often see the perspective change, where the writers move ion and out of 3rd person, and that annoys me.
Just my thoughts.

Cagivagurl

Id be interested in your opinion on how I handled it in this story. It’s first person with two primary MCs and three points of view. I think it’s a pretty good story and the POV switch is kind of why I wrote it.

 

[Cagivagurl]

Id be interested in your opinion on how I handled it in this story. It’s first person with two primary MCs and three points of view. I think it’s a pretty good story and the POV switch is kind of why I wrote it.

I will be honest.
When I start reading, and the characters flip back and forth. I stop reading. It annoys me so much.
I will read yours, and get back to you...

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I will be honest.
When I start reading, and the characters flip back and forth. I stop reading. It annoys me so much.
I will read yours, and get back to you...

In the context, I think it works.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Id be interested in your opinion on how I handled it in this story. It’s first person with two primary MCs and three points of view. I think it’s a pretty good story and the POV switch is kind of why I wrote it.

I skimmed the first two sections, and from what I could see, they were both Dave, despite your introductory note. First, Dave on the boat, yakking to Rick, then the first * * * which I think designated a time shift (a flash-back), but still with Dave narrating, but now with Meg.

If you have a section break (which I do in my stories, often) I reckon you've got to establish point of view and the reason for the break within the first paragraph, with something that immediately provides context. Otherwise the reader gets further in, gets confused, and has to go back to figure out what happened, and when. And with a flash-back, you've got to make that very clear.

I probably skimmed too fast, but I got confused - enough to pull me out of the story. I never sure first person pov swaps work terribly well - personally, if it's first person, my preference is to stay in one head. I have broken my own rule, but don't do it often. I prefer limited third person, if I want multiple points of view.

 

[mildlyaroused]

As a reader, I’d just ask that each chapter tells a complete piece of the story. Nothing will turn me off more than being left hanging in the middle of a scene just because the author thinks a high chapter count is a good thing.

This precisely ^

Be very careful with cliffhangers. And do away with entirely (in my opinion) any cliffhanger which leans on a reader's arousal. That is, don't end the chapter with the MCs poised over one another just before they finally go all the way. You can bet that your next chapter won't come out before the reader orgasms (or happily drops the mood, as we might lol). You inherently lose some of the tension you've built.

That isn't to say cliffhangers can't be used. It's just playing with fire.

I reckon you've got to establish point of view and the reason for the break within the first paragraph, with something that immediately provides context.

This, though it seems so simple, is honestly to me one of the hardest facets of making a first-person POV change work artfully. That first "I..." following a page break just doesn't tell us whose mind we're now inhabiting. You have to be bloody quick so the reader doesn't get confused - and to do that graciously is way harder than you'd think.

And Shelby, I haven't read your story so I don't want to unfairly judge you (your comment I replied to tells me you're probably a good storyteller). But it is a little confusing that there's a disclaimer at the start (*** means POV change), while the first *** does not change the POV. The disclaimer is smart. I still think it's difficult to make the transition feel smooth, though again I have not read your full work and this is a generalisation.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Entirely fair, and agreed. I've written a couple of novels (not published here) in the 80K-100K word range. So far I find that 2500-4000 words per chapter tends to give you enough action to move the story forward without bogging it down and allows the chapter to end at a natural break point. (And my Googling suggests that most novels these days have chapters about that length, which is probably why it feels natural to me.)

I used to kinda think like that. 2500 words ain't that much. I had the incling that a chapter four msword pages long was convenient. I think it was KeithD or Lovecraft that told me that a chapter should be as long as it needs to be. So I let go of that notion, for the most part. A lit page is about three times as long as your standard word processor page, before it auto generates a new page. Depending on word count twelve to fourteen msword pages can be one page, or two.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

I will be honest.
When I start reading, and the characters flip back and forth. I stop reading. It annoys me so much.
I will read yours, and get back to you...

Used to be common in fanfiction, so I got used to it. I've yet to see it used elsewhere.

 

[SimonDoom]

Id be interested in your opinion on how I handled it in this story. It’s first person with two primary MCs and three points of view. I think it’s a pretty good story and the POV switch is kind of why I wrote it.

I'm confused. You indicate there are three points of view. I read through several scenes, and there's only one point of view: Dave's. Sometimes he's with Meg, sometimes with Rick, but it's always told in the first person POV by Dave.

The overriding rule, IMO, about POV is to keep things clear. It should always be clear to the reader who is doing the narrating and which character's activities are being narrated. As long as it's clear, anything can work. Your example confused me, because you had indicated that there would be shifts in point of view, so when I started section 2 I expected it to be told from Rick's point of view, but it was still Dave's point of view.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I'm confused. You indicate there are three points of view. I read through several scenes, and there's only one point of view: Dave's. Sometimes he's with Meg, sometimes with Rick, but it's always told in the first person POV by Dave.

The overriding rule, IMO, about POV is to keep things clear. It should always be clear to the reader who is doing the narrating and which character's activities are being narrated. As long as it's clear, anything can work. Your example confused me, because you had indicated that there would be shifts in point of view, so when I started section 2 I expected it to be told from Rick's point of view, but it was still Dave's point of view.

I was considering Dave with Rick one POV and Dave inside the framed story with Meg another. The voice of the story teller is always first person, but The POV of the story being told shifts from first person present to first person past.

I’m not an expert on this, it’s just the way I see it when I think of the story. One overriding main story told by Dave and two framed stories, one told by Dave, one told by Rick.

 

[Devinter]

I swapped between two characters in my The Wolf and the Lamb that I wrote for the Pink Orchid event, but in order to make it easier for the reader, I made sure that each chapter was alternating between the two. As in, I never did two parts with the same character's POV in a row. That way, the little breaks I use to indicate that a new scene has begun also made it clear that the POV had now switched, although of course I also tried to describe that with the text itself.

I think it turned out nicely, and even though it is written in 3rd person, when it swaps to the Evelina character she internalizes some of her thoughts, so the writing styles is slightly different too. I thought that added a bit of flair! Just make it easier for the reader to follow along and you should have no problem.

 

[alohadave]

A lit page is about three times as long as your standard word processor page

It's about 15 pages double spaced. Assuming 250 words per page.

 

[mildlyaroused]

It's about 15 pages double spaced. Assuming 250 words per page.

For me each Lit page is ~8 pages in standard manuscript format: A4 1.27cm margins, size 12 TNR, double-spaced, 1.27cm first line indents. Quite a disparity? Maybe that comes down to density of prose.