Possible plagiarism..Here's my evidence

[neil1357]

Hello.

I am not an author, but I found a site that *might* be stealing stories from here--however I've been unable to confirm it. Let me tell you what I found and you can make your own judgments.


I was browsing the AskJolene site when I saw a story that began "This is exclusive to Literotica.com, if found elsewhere please notify FallingToFly.." I pulled up the list of "author's stories" here and at AskJolene, and at a quick glance they look identical:

AskJolene - FallingToFly
http://friends.askjolene.com/stories/author.php?id=41297
Literotica - FallingToFly
http://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=662909&page=submissions
​

I picked three other authors at random from AskJolene and compared the list of stories, and again, a quick read suggests they're the same:

AskJolene - CelticHeart1
http://friends.askjolene.com/stories/author.php?id=50740
Literotica.com - Celtic_Heart
http://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=30245&page=submissions

AskJolene - CarolinaGuy24
http://friends.askjolene.com/stories/author.php?id=50696
Literotica.com - CarolinaGuy24
http://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=1057949&page=submissions

AskJolene - Bruno10271
http://friends.askjolene.com/stories/author.php?id=48302
Literotica.com - Bruno1027
http://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=416756&page=submissions
​

I sent messages to each of these four Literotica authors asking them 1) If they'd submitted the stories to AskJolene and 2) For permission to use them as an example here. Unfortunately so far none of them have responded, so I can't rule out the possibility that they submitted their own stories. Let me repeat that:

THE POSTINGS MIGHT HAVE BEEN DONE BY THE ORIGINAL AUTHORS.

My only solid evidence at this point is the text at the start of FTF's story.


I contacted the webmistress of Lit (Laurel) and she said (quoting with permission):

That site is a problem site. We have written to them before requesting that they remove all unauthorized material. They have told us that if individual authors (as copyright holders) write them requesting story removal, then they will do so. Please do write them and request that they remove your unauthorized work - and encourage other authors in the same boat as you to do the same. If they do not remove your work within a reasonable time frame (72 hours or so), then please PM me and let other authors do the same.

-------------------
That is my evidence. I can't *confirm* my suspicions, but obviously if you are reading this you can check for yourself if they've copied your works.


Thank you for your time, and my apologies if this turns out to be nothing.

 

[oggbashan]

I have 18 pages of stories there.

I understood that AskJolene was a search engine, not a site that posts my stories.

Og

 

[Guest]

Deleted

 

[sr71plt]

Guess you don't read these forums much, Neil. This crops up as someone's revelation at least once a month here.

If something could be done about it, it would be done now. Common sense.

 

[oPENsex]

I only have one story on Lit. and its there too without any authorisation from me. Thanks for the alert. I will request the removal as suggested below but think I will not submit any more here until the moderators can assure us all that our work is totally secure.

 

[oggbashan]

I only have one story on Lit. and its there too without any authorisation from me. Thanks for the alert. I will request the removal as suggested below but think I will not submit any more here until the moderators can assure us all that our work is totally secure.

That assurance is impossible.

If you post anything anywhere on the internet it is likely to be stolen.

Copyright protection is meaningless in some parts of the world.

Og

 

[sr71plt]

I only have one story on Lit. and its there too without any authorisation from me. Thanks for the alert. I will request the removal as suggested below but think I will not submit any more here until the moderators can assure us all that our work is totally secure.

They can't assure you of that--when you slap anything on the Internet, you lose control of it in practical terms. You want to protect it--don't post it to the Internet.

The askjolene Web site cited here isn't controllable from anywhere but the Netherlands (assuming that's where it is based)--and can only loosely be controlled from there even.

Folks have been complaining about that particular Web site here for years on this forum and others have assured them that Lit. can and will do something about it--and it's still going on. (Can you connect the dots? Can those who will now come back and tell me that Laurel will/can take care of it connect the dots?) Even if askjolene takes something down, it can and will put it back up the next day. From my understanding, it's being done with an automatic crawler anyway and there are no humans who know what has been retrieved from where and reposted on askjolene.

In legal terms, if you are in the States, unless you have obtained a formal copyright document on the piece (and who does that?), you couldn't take it to court--so all this "I'm gonna sue" is so much bluster--and askjolene (and the other sites doing this) know this and are just laughing at the bluster.

Beating your head against the wall on this is going to give you--and only you--a headache.

If you post content to the Internet you are giving it away. The interesting thing about erotica, though (as we are discussing on another thread here) is that it can be all over the Internet (which, as long as it's IDed to your pen name, is mostly just free publicity anyway) and you can still make money off it if you know how to go about it.

 

[tickledkitty]

Last time I checked, my stories on that site simply linked back here anyway.

 

[sr71plt]

Last time I checked, my stories on that site simply linked back here anyway.

Mine too--which would be perfectly legitimate and is just good, free publicity--but I understand that the material of some is being posted in other ways--not attributed, butchered, attributed to someone else, etc.

The bottom line is that it isn't controllable to any significant degree and has not been successfully controlled--especially across the Internet--no matter what assurances anyone gives or reads to the contrary. What adjustments anyone asserts have been made are mere drops in the bucket.

And as far as this Web site (Lit.) is concerned--it constantly permits the formally copyrighted work of others to be stolen and reposted on this forum, so I have no sympathy for it on this topic--and certainly no confidence that its administrators have a good grasp on the issue at all.

 

[Guest]

Deleted

 

[sr71plt]

I'm a firm believer in the therapeutic value of ritual gestures, SR. It's like prayer: it does no harm and just may do some good.

Doesn't mean I spend my days feverishly searching for sites that have posted my scant writings without permission. *shrug*

TK, these stories don't link back, or at least mine don't.

I agree that beating one's head against the wall is a ritual gesture--the jury is still out (cold) on how therapeutic it is, though.


One this particular issue, I have no issue with coming face to face with this for the first time--my main issue is with those who say "Mommy fix" every time it comes up, when obviously nobody is fixing it (because they can't) and "Mommy" don't have a clue about the whole issue because Mommy don't do any better about it than the ones being railed against.

 

[Guest]

Deleted

 

[Katyusha]

.........

 

[neil1357]

Guess you don't read these forums much, Neil. This crops up as someone's revelation at least once a month here.

You are correct that I don't read the Author forums (as I am not an author), and I am "highly-irregular" at browsing the other forums.

I just did a forum-search for "AskJolene" and I see what you mean about it coming up regularly. I apologize for not doing that particular search earlier; in my defense I attempted to find material on LitE forums or in the FAQs (or the Blank Manual, or the How-To's..) for reporting stolen stories before ever sending my first PM and did not find anything (though obviously I forgot to do the most obvious search). (/me is embarrassed)

If something could be done about it, it would be done now. Common sense.

I might dispute that, sir: I'm sure we're both aware that material gets stolen, although my understanding (again, IANAA so I've never dealt with it personally, and especially IANAL) is that a note from the author to the website (or the hosting ISP) is usually sufficient to get the stolen content removed. However this can only be done when the author *knows* of an infringing case.

It may be whack-a-mole, but in my humble opinion is the author's decision whether to send the letter or not. I know how I would feel if it were my work, so I attempted to notify the authors who I suspected had their work stolen. You're right that there's a limit to what "can be done about it," but knowledge is power, and I stand by my decision to post. (Of course, 2 hours isn't much time to change one's opinion.)

And as far as this Web site (Lit.) is concerned--it constantly permits the formally copyrighted work of others to be stolen and reposted on this forum

If true, that would be most distressing. Can you point to an example, please?

Folks have been complaining about that particular Web site here for years on this forum and others have assured them that Lit. can and will do something about it--and it's still going on.

As quoted in my original message, Laurel reportedly has asked them to take material down in the past, but AJ has essentially refused because LitE is not the copyright holder.

If it is a recurring problem for this site, perhaps an FAQ entry or a separate thread/forum for public notification of thievery would be appropriate?

From my understanding, it's being done with an automatic crawler anyway and there are no humans who know what has been retrieved from where and reposted on askjolene.

That was my first thought too (in which case a simple regex in their crawler would exclude the entire LitE site), but some of the multi-chapter postings here are broken into single-chapter postings on AJ, so either their crawler is capable of detecting chapter headings or a human touched it at some point. Honestly, I'm not sure which is more likely.


-Neil

 

[sr71plt]

You are correct that I don't read the Author forums (as I am not an author), and I am "highly-irregular" at browsing the other forums.

I just did a forum-search for "AskJolene" and I see what you mean about it coming up regularly. I apologize for not doing that particular search earlier; in my defense I attempted to find material on LitE forums or in the FAQs (or the Blank Manual, or the How-To's..) for reporting stolen stories before ever sending my first PM and did not find anything (though obviously I forgot to do the most obvious search). (/me is embarrassed)

It's certainly not a problem for it to come up. It's not intuitive to know that it's a chronic problem that doesn't go away. Authors wave the Berne Convention (international law) provision of "it's owned by the author as soon as set to the medium" and try to ignore the fact that overriding U.S. law (in the States) still requires a litigant to hold a formally acquired copyright document to even get a court date for a suit. I mean, why would the authors volunteer that the lion is toothless (especially since 90 percent of them don't know it and are too hardheaded to look it up on the U.S. government copyright Web site)?

The problem is when other posters here say, "Oh, our Web site has that covered." It doesn't . . . obviously . . . or the issue wouldn't pop up here over the years. They are lying when they say this--even if inadvertently from their own ignorance--and not doing the original poster (or themselves) any favors.

I might dispute that, sir: I'm sure we're both aware that material gets stolen, although my understanding (again, IANAA so I've never dealt with it personally, and especially IANAL) is that a note from the author to the website (or the hosting ISP) is usually sufficient to get the stolen content removed. However this can only be done when the author *knows* of an infringing case.

Cite me one court case where a stolen story to an erotica Web site claim has even been accepted by a U.S. court, not to mention won. Until then, I suggest you may not have as good an understanding of this as you think. At that point we are in the realm of wishful thinking.

And once again, if a note is usually all it takes, why is it still going on and being complained about here? There may be something that can be done on a one-up situation where the offending Web site administrator may be dumb about his/her legal position--but where's the evidence of relief across the Internet?

If true, that would be most distressing. Can you point to an example, please?

You can check this out yourself. Go to any of the political or theortical thought threads here and open them and look for the superlong quotes of published articles. These invariably are formally copyrighted pieces (which gives them more legal standing than any story posted to this story site that hasn't been covered by formal copyright application). It doesn't make a hill of beans if they are given credit--author's name, by-line, source attribution. The content is copyrighted and invariably no one owning the use rights gave permission for it to be reprinted here.

And, yes, sometimes the administrators here are notified. And on even fewer occasions, they pull the material. But on most occasions they leave it there--obviously because it is too much for them to keep up with. But by leaving it there, they are showing they don't understand copyright law. They are just as liable for it being there as is the original poster, and in the world of anonymous original posters, guess who the copyright owner would go after if so inclined? This Web site is running on the lack of "so inclined," not on respect for another's copyright ownership or for the law.

As quoted in my original message, Laurel reportedly has asked them to take material down in the past, but AJ has essentially refused because LitE is not the copyright holder.

If it is a recurring problem for this site, perhaps an FAQ entry or a separate thread/forum for public notification of thievery would be appropriate?

Yep, in U.S. law there is no copyright holder with legal standing until someone successfully applies to the copyright office for a formal copyright document (which, incidentally, askjolene could do on anyones Internetted material if the original hasn't already done so. Think about that, gang.)

Yep, I'd be all for the more expicit notifications--but that would perhaps mean fewer stories posted (wouldn't stop me, though. I fully understand and accept the risks/realities). It's so much easier just to "pretend" and keep fingers crossed and count on contributors' ignorance.

That was my first thought too (in which case a simple regex in their crawler would exclude the entire LitE site), but some of the multi-chapter postings here are broken into single-chapter postings on AJ, so either their crawler is capable of detecting chapter headings or a human touched it at some point. Honestly, I'm not sure which is more likely.

Why would they redo their crawler to exclude Lit.? It's a goldmine of a site and askjolene knows the lion here has no teeth. It's just some folks here who like to believe in their own wishes on that.

 

[sacrificedangel]

Last time I checked, my stories on that site simply linked back here anyway.

Yeah, ive just checked and they have pretty much ALL my work, that links my stories straight back to here.

 

[neil1357]

Cite me one court case where a stolen story to an erotica Web site claim has even been accepted by a U.S. court, not to mention won. Until then, I suggest you may not have as good an understanding of this as you think.

Oh, I fully admit my understanding is fuzzy at best; and I was not referring to court cases, but was thinking of anecdotal evidence ("I read it on an author's blog,") though right now I can't link to a specific example of that either.

And once again, if a note is usually all it takes, why is it still going on and being complained about here? There may be something that can be done on a one-up situation where the offending Web site administrator may be dumb about his/her legal position--but where's the evidence of relief across the Internet?

In this particular case, my theory would be that it's still happening because the site (or the law in their hosting country) allows them to treat each author independently: if an author complains, they can't knowingly re-post from that author again, but there are thousands of others on this site alone that they can still copy from.

In the general case, my belief is that their persistence comes from A) the need for a big-enough event to occur that forces them to shutdown (ISP cutoff, removal of too many stories, etc) and B) whack-a-mole.

You can check this out yourself. Go to any of the political or theortical thought threads here and open them and look for the superlong quotes of published articles.

Oh; I agree that would be a violation of copyright, I thought you were referring to LitE re-posting erotica from other authors without their permission.

And, yes, sometimes the administrators here are notified. And on even fewer occasions, they pull the material. But on most occasions they leave it there--obviously because it is too much for them to keep up with.

IANAL, but isn't there something in U.S. law (I'm assuming U.S. hosting) that says once a webhost/moderator starts censoring/removing user posts, they lose 'common-carrier' (or "safe harbor" or something) status and become responsible for *all* postings made by their users? I'm *very* unclear on this area but it seems that I've heard those phrases on my tech-news podcasts...

Yep, in U.S. law there is no copyright holder with legal standing until someone successfully applies to the copyright office for a formal copyright document (which, incidentally, askjolene could do on anyones Internetted material if the original hasn't already done so. Think about that, gang.)

Although unlikely to ever reach an actual court fight (arbitration, maybe..), couldn't the true author just demonstrate that they had posted it to other sites earlier than the infringer?


-Neil

 

[sr71plt]

Oh, I fully admit my understanding is fuzzy at best; and I was not referring to court cases, but was thinking of anecdotal evidence ("I read it on an author's blog,") though right now I can't link to a specific example of that either.

That anecotal supposition thing will kill you every time.

Although if you can bluff your way through, it might work some of the time.

In this particular case, my theory would be that it's still happening because the site (or the law in their hosting country) allows them to treat each author independently: if an author complains, they can't knowingly re-post from that author again, but there are thousands of others on this site alone that they can still copy from.

Wishful theory in the face of reality can also be a bear. If someone reading this has gotten their material wiped off of askjolene sometime more than a year ago and it hasn't been posted again, I guess they will let us know here. Until they do, it's just that--theory.

I think that comes under my "drop in the bucket" comment, though.

In the general case, my belief is that their persistence comes from A) the need for a big-enough event to occur that forces them to shutdown (ISP cutoff, removal of too many stories, etc) and B) whack-a-mole.

This threat of getting to the ISP provider and getting them shut down looks like the best avenue to me. It worked with Absoluteright a couple of years ago when it was letting its posters libel someone by true name to the extent of hurting their income.

It wouldn't work in the United States for an ISP provider outside of the United States, though. In askjolene's case, if a Netherlands provider is happy to host porn, there's little chance anyone in the States could influence it or appeal to its conscience--unless you could think of a way to hit the provider in its pocketbook.

Oh; I agree that would be a violation of copyright, I thought you were referring to LitE re-posting erotica from other authors without their permission.

Copyright violation is copyright violation. What makes a dirty story any more worthy of protection than an op ed piece?

The point here, though, is waxing indignant when the same thing is going on under your nose and you aren't complaining about it. (Sort of screw them but not me.)

IANAL, but isn't there something in U.S. law (I'm assuming U.S. hosting) that says once a webhost/moderator starts censoring/removing user posts, they lose 'common-carrier' (or "safe harbor" or something) status and become responsible for *all* postings made by their users? I'm *very* unclear on this area but it seems that I've heard those phrases on my tech-news podcasts...

If you wish to assert there is something in the law that affects this discussion, shouldn't you be the one looking for it and citing it, rather than me? I work with copyright professionally. I've seen nothing like you suppose might be there.

Although unlikely to ever reach an actual court fight (arbitration, maybe..), couldn't the true author just demonstrate that they had posted it to other sites earlier than the infringer?

That's rather my bottomline point. It isn't a case of "unlikely to reach a court." Until/unless the law is rewritten, such a case couldn't reach a court in the United States (which is why I always ask for a court case citation and no one ever gives one). Because one of the few laws that actually exists and is clear in U.S. copyright code is that someone has to hold a formal copyright document on the material to get a court date on a copyright violation suit. It's laughable how many people choose not to understand a clearly worded piece of legislation when it exists.

Demonstration doesn't even come into play when nobody's sitting there to demonstrate it to.

 

[neil1357]

Yeah, ive just checked and they have pretty much ALL my work, that links my stories straight back to here.

Interesting.. I have no idea what kind of criteria makes some stories "link back" to LitE and others are hosted on their site. (Don't get me wrong--if they're not stealing your work, I'm glad to hear of it!

The only thing I can suggest is that people make sure they're looking under stories.askjolene.com and not search.askjolene.com. Unfortunately I haven't found a way yet to search for a particular author or story, so I have to browse the genres and scan all the pages to see if a particular story is there--but as we've already seen, sometimes my skill with the "Search" feature is less-than-stellar.

-Neil

 

[neil1357]

It wouldn't work in the United States for an ISP provider outside of the United States, though. In askjolene's case, if a Netherlands provider is happy to host porn, there's little chance anyone in the States could influence it or appeal to its conscience--unless you could think of a way to hit the provider in its pocketbook.

Agreed. The only way I can think of offhand would be to--as Laurel and GnomeDePlume mentioned--see if there are U.S.-based advertisers who care that their advertising is being associated with a site that is stealing from a lot of authors and encourage them to pull their funding; but that's far from a sure thing.

Copyright violation is copyright violation. What makes a dirty story any more worthy of protection than an op ed piece?

I agree: both are worthy of the same protections. My apologies for not being clear on that.

Originally, I thought you were saying that LitE was posting stories as Stories and making it look like the author had posted them here ("the Admins are infringing"); it seems you were referring to users posting content in violation of copyright ("the User is infringing, the Admins are hosting material that violates copyright").

That's all I meant, not that one was less deserving of protection than the other.

I work with copyright professionally. I've seen nothing like you suppose might be there.

I would believe it if you were to say you are a copyright laywer: you certainly have a way of driving your points home!

 

[sr71plt]

I would believe it if you were to say you are a copyright laywer: you certainly have a way of driving your points home!

International law--which isn't anything like a business law background. But it suffices for the Berne Convention. Mostly, though, I've been stuck with the copyright portfolio in a government media-monitoring office and in a couple of publishing houses.

Peace.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Mine are just links back to Lit.

 

[bb_peaks]

Mine are just links back to Lit.

ditto here

 

[CWatson]

Ditto x3. (When I search myself, it's even got links to a story I was the editor on.)

 

[fieryjen]

Last time I checked, there were stories credited to my name that were definitely not written by me... which I'm definitely uncomfortable about, but there doesn't seem to be anything I can do about it.